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S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


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Old 11-17-2020, 02:51 PM
Jpathenry Jpathenry is offline
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Default Smith Frontier 44-40

Something I found helping inventory a friends stuff. Anyone have any info on it? It is a Smith & Wesson frontier 44-40. W.F. & CO. EX. Guessing the markings are fake Can not find info of Frontiers going to wells fargo.

He is not wanting to sell it. Just trying to find info out for him (and myself) I love old stuff anymore.
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Old 11-17-2020, 05:37 PM
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Default Wells Fargo?

I’ve inventoried quite a few express guns. I’ve never seen a Wells Fargo stamp this large on any antique pistol. I have seen them on shotguns so one never knows. Knee jerk reaction is to automatically label it a fake but I have seen some odd markings on Colt Frontier pistols in 44/40 that lettered! and Wells Fargo also ordered Lightning Rifles in 44/40 caliber so more research would be a good idea and a factory letter might help. You never know! Wells Fargo was a Nation Wide Company. Markings differ from one location to the next on early guns. Also just because most had shorter barrels? I’ve documented several with 6” barrels that were confirmed as used by Wells Fargo based on authentication letters from the Railway Express Agency.

What is the serial number range?

Murph
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Old 11-17-2020, 05:44 PM
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I will have to take a look when we finish things up. We really had not started that safe yet. I just thought it was interesting and had some questions. I might be able to get the number tomorrow. Thank you for the info. I am sure I will have more questions.
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Old 11-17-2020, 07:58 PM
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What is the serial number and what it the cylinder length?
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Old 11-17-2020, 08:21 PM
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Other WF & Co. marks include a property number after the WF markings. These property numbers correspond to the serial number of the revolver. WF marked Schofields are the most common found. I'd like to know if these marks are genuine WF. They look genuinely aged.
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Old 11-18-2020, 12:00 AM
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My vote is the mark is faked. Genuine WF&Co marks were made with a single die stamp, not individual letters, with only a few exceptions. Those exceptions were for very remote WF&Co outposts where the weapons for the outpost were acquired from local sources, and most of those situations were before a .44DA was made. WF&Co sold all their firearms, still in inventory, in a New York City auction , circa early 1920s. Some where I have a list of all those sales, by serial number, which I obtained from WF&Co about 1950. A copy of that list might still be obtainable from the WF&Co Historian. Ed
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Old 11-19-2020, 08:30 PM
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Just looking at the font alone it looks period however, a good "FAKIER" would know that. I agree that the best way to start would be to ask Dr. Roy Jinks if he could tell you where it shipped and to whom. Not sure about Wells Fargo guns whether they shipped to the company or a local distributor who then sold them to WF.

There was also a very creative gentleman from I believe the CA area that had a reputation for "making up" Wells Fargo guns to add to their value.

I would be careful especially if the desire is to sell off this collection in representing a gun as something that it is not.

Get some documentation first.
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Old 11-20-2020, 01:59 AM
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Default California Faker?

And who exactly would that “California “ faker be?

Murph
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Old 11-20-2020, 02:08 AM
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Default JSR III

He is not looking to sell. He picked it up at a farm auction a few years back in Missouri. It just kind of tripped my trigger as to the history of it. He has had a stroke and I am helping him sort through his guns.
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Old 11-20-2020, 02:34 AM
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Default A good deed.

Good for you Jpathenry,

Whenever you get a chance to look at the gun again besides the serial number can you look closely for any other markings on the gun? Backstrap or under the base of the grip frame next to the serial number? Also, please look for grind marks on the backstrap?

Thanks,

Murph

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Old 11-20-2020, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JSR III View Post
....There was also a very creative gentleman from I believe the CA area that had a reputation for "making up" Wells Fargo guns to add to their value....

I wonder if it was the same man who was making Colt Single Action Army revolvers with spurious U.S. marks. I saw one, the U.S. didn't look right, and with a magnifying glass I could see that it was a phony. A friend bought a "genuine" U.S. military cavalry Colt Single Action Army. He got burned.


Anything that is rare and valuable, someone is going to try to fake one.
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Old 11-20-2020, 10:23 AM
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And who exactly would that “California “ faker be?

Murph
I don't recall his name at the moment but I'm sure the senior senator from California, Dr. Ed, knows of whom I speak. It is probably a moot issue at this time who he was as the guns are already on the street and it is too late to find a tree and bring a rope.
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Old 11-20-2020, 11:54 AM
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Default Authentic?

Identifying fakes or altered guns is part of the fun for me personally. In my opinion its part of doing your homework. Single Action Army Military issue guns are, in my opinion, not difficult to weed out. Even the best fakes are missing very important markings, "correct" inspector stamps, matching numbers, cartouches on the grips. If you do your homework they tend to be easily identified.

What's intriguing about "Wells Fargo" guns if you actually study them? It's a continual learning process. Why? because Wells Fargo was "Enormous"! Multiple divisions that covered the Entire U.S and beyond. So, finding new variations of "Wells Fargo" Stamped guns that are not altered is actually not unusual. What's difficult is proving it. This could be as an example, one of only 12 guns that went to a remote location and was stamped by that remote office.

The common denominator with Wells Fargo if you enjoy studying them as I do you will note that literally "ALL" the offices had safes of some type. I mean "ALL" of them. A lot of them had "HUGE" walk in safes that actually still exist. In California alone there were 100's of them. I've actually visited quite a few and often the small town doesn't even know it was originally a Wells Fargo office. Now it's a flower shop or even a coffee shop! I've actually told the owners of the store. "Did you know this was a Wells Fargo office"? "NOPE" And in the back you can clearly see the huge brick room that now has storage in. "Aaa...Well, that was the safe"...."NO WAY"....Yep, that was a safe. The iron doors are long gone but the sold brick room is still there. So, To me that means "Guns" needed to guard them "on site".

I'd like to try to maintain an open mind on the OP's gun for the time being since I personally have seen guns that are confirmed original that make no sense to collectors. There were offices all over California as an example " 100 years Before the so called fakers were even born"....and the "early" guns as Ed mentioned have some very odd (out of the ordinary) markings and by early I mean pre-1890. Is this one of them? I don't know, but it is very interesting and it "is" possible.

The pattern of the stamp is correct but unusually large font and stamped with individual letters brings some suspect into the picture. However, All "Wells Fargo" guns do NOT follow the Schofield contract pattern stamp. We need to know the serial number range of this gun. I'm hoping its an early number! The later the number the more likely it's an altered/non original stamp since Wells Fargo is proven to have Purchased mostly Colts Post 1890. I have the research material to support that position. Also, after about 1893-ish the purchasing agents tended to purchase directly from the factory and the markings then became "very" uniformed along with factory documented information. So, the earlier the serial number the more I'm believing this marking to be possibly legit.

** Need more info.

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 11-20-2020 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 11-20-2020, 01:36 PM
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Default Wells Fargo Office

Here is one of my favorite original Wells Fargo offices. It's closed to the public because the building is not safe. The Historical Department is trying to obtain funds to restore the original office. It's located in Yosemite Area close to my property.

The office dates to the very early 1850's! I was able to access the office from a two day fund raiser from the Historical Society...It's totally original, untouched, still has the original wood floors etc.

Back in the early 1970's some thieves tried to steal the original safe and it literally fell through the old wood floor when they tried to roll it out of the building. There it sits still sunk in the floor for the last 50 years! This is a very small office also and they still had a big safe.

Murph
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Old 11-20-2020, 01:53 PM
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I almost bought an old Commercial Building years ago, which had been a Ball Bearing manufacturing Company, built 1908, and it had a walk in Safe which was about 700 sq ft inside.

No idea why a Ball Bearing Company needed such a big Safe, but there it was, and all 1908 and so pretty and well preserved!
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Old 11-22-2020, 08:01 PM
Jpathenry Jpathenry is offline
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Ok I brought it home with me tonight. Cylinder is 1 9/16 numbers match on the frame top and cylinder the number is 105xx. A quick search I could not find the year it was produced. There does not appear to be anything wrong with it everything looks factory except the wf markings. I can take more pics if anyone wants them.
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Old 11-22-2020, 11:06 PM
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Default Research comparison

Well,
The .44 Double Action Frontier was manufactured in it's own serial number range. Starting with serial number 1 in approximately 1886 and ending with serial number 15340 when the last guns were shipped in approximately 1913.

So, plugging in your 10,000 serial number range into that mix would put your gun in the late 1890's. All of my research on Wells Fargo Express guns proves that the Express Purchasing agents were already by this time purchasing directly from the factory and the factory was stamping the guns with the typical:

W.F. & Co. in large letters on the bottom of the butt or on rare occasion on the backstrap. Also, Wells Fargo was purchasing mostly Colt's by this time frame.

So, I have no proof that the markings on your Frontier variation are correct. In fact the type of stamp on the barrel was no longer used post 1888. That's why I was hoping your gun was a lower serial number.

You could still pursue a factory letter to see if the gun was shipped to a Major Distributor that supplied the Express agents? In my opinion, It's a long shot though.


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 11-22-2020 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 11-23-2020, 12:12 AM
Jpathenry Jpathenry is offline
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I will ask him what he wants to do at this point. On the bright side when we got it out of the safe there was a nice little hand ejector 32-20 sitting there. LOL
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Old 11-23-2020, 04:02 PM
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Well,
Here we go again. I decided to look through my lengthy notes in my Wells Fargo Research material and I actually found a Colt lighting that was shipped in 1893 to Simmons Hardware Company in St. Louis. I have a lot of notes on Simmons Hardware Company! They were an "early" Express supplier that goes back to 1878 and early Colt lightnings for Pacific Express in 1879, Wells Fargo as early as 1878, and American express Co, same year. This Colt lighting shipped in 1893 and has on the backstrap: W.F & Co. EX 91.

Confirmed Express guns did not always have a property number after the Company Stamp. It depended in my opinion on the amount of guns supplied to that specific area/town/office/etc. Wells Fargo was also one of the last companies to purchase "Factory ordered" guns. Up to the late 1890's they were still buying guns directly from the Major Distributors.

This extents that type of marking to at least 1893. Obviously this contract involved more than 91 guns! Every contract that I have documented with the Express Companies involves hundreds and sometimes thousands of guns. So that extends this type of marking much later than my Smith & Wesson notes contained.

You might want to pursue a factory letter for this gun and see where it was shipped. I have a list of known Major Distributors that supplied the Express Agents. This is why it's so difficult to confirm original markings. Because the Express Companies literally bought "Many thousands of guns" over a very long period of time. It's also why we should maintain an open mind when we look at markings on antique guns. I try my best to keep an open mind and "look" for research information to back it up.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. The below photo is a very early Colt Lightning that has a poorly stamped AmExCo 62 on the back strap. For years collectors were calling these markings bogus. But they kept showing up on early guns pre-1890. I've documented several. Via factory letters and cross referencing the early Schofields? The exact same markings are present and they went to the same Major Distributor that was a known Express dealer. "THOUSANDS" of them!!! So, research is the answer.

I think you should get a letter for this gun and see where it was shipped. Make sure you include a photo of the marking on the barrel. Also, ask the historical Department "how many guns" were in that shipment! It might be a small number.

Murph
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Old 11-23-2020, 11:21 PM
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Default More photo's?

BTW,
You offered to take more photo's? Can you take a few more photo's of the stamp in natural light and a couple different angles? Thanks,

Murph
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