Thank's Kinman for this advise

Concerning Suisse number 1 : 4fg
In Europe many shooter use Suisse 1 in competition on Revolver or pistol . only 15 grains target load Swiss 1 ffffg

For your information From Suisse Aubonne company
See attached table US FFFFg is more fine

US powder FFFFg. 40 - 100 Mesh 0,42 - 0,15 mm
Swiss FFFG 35 - 65 Mesh 0,508 - 0,226 mm

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Thanks a lot
I not newbie on Black powder reload : 45-90 , 45-70 , Percussion revolver. Percussion pistol , Musquet

On my Colt 1873 SAA U.S
I already try Swiss 3fg without any change on impact location VS Swiss 4Fg with the same bullet weight .

But i will try some different load with different Fg to reach my goal.

Thank you very much for your advice
Pat

Hi Gents

Please could you confirm the front sight height : 28,73 mm // 1,1311 ''

i suspect someone file the front sight.

I reduce my load 15 gr Suisse 3 FFG with Round ball 140gr but my revolver still shooting hight 10 inches .

Thanks a lot

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I do not understand why Swiss would be different in Europe than the U.S. I've noticed the new Swiss can is different and will pay close attention to granulation of powder when switching over. Swiss even makes a powder finer than 4F, they call it NullB. I had a flintlock that was giving me fits and I gave that stuff a try...it is very fast and highly explosive. I ended up enlarging the touch hole which allowed a better flame from the pan.
With what revolver cartridges I shoot only being .44 Russian and .44-40 I find Goex Old Eyensford 3F works as a good substitute for Swiss 3F and saves a few dollars per can. In my 38-55 Sharps I use Swiss 3F exclusively to excellent results using a softer 30:1 lead:tin mixture. In the 45-70 and 2.4 Sharps I use Swiss 1-1/2F and a slightly harder 20:1 lead:tin mixture.

Factory loading data for the 44 Russian and “ Ball” or gallery load is 110 grain pure lead bullet and 7 grains of FFFG powder with no case crimp just ball seated against the powder.
They also list a 130 gallery ball with 8 grains of FFFG powder.

So your 15 grain load is still too hot and will bring the bullet up from recoil.

The loads you are using are basically cavalry type loads that are designed to be shot from horseback at a man sized target at 60 yards distant.

So you can either lighten the charge to meet factory specs? Or get a horse?

Murph

Thanks a lot Murph
This gallery load is a great information .I have never hear of it .
I will try for sure .

Best regards

Dear Kidman

In fact Swiss black powder n°1 4Fg are the same .(35 - 65 Mesh)
But US powder 4Fg are more fine (40 - 100 Mesh )

I'm loading my Sharp Shiloh 45-70 like you . 62 Gr of Swiss n°4 1 1/2 Fg Postel .458 535 gr.

Best regards
Patrick

What is it like where you shoot, I only have experience with Germany. Their shooting ranges were very exclusive and difficult to gain admission, entirely private shooting clubs. There was a military club but it was distant and in an area I was not stationed. Most of the German clubs were excellent but as I mentioned it was very exclusive ($$$$$) Here is a picture of the range where I am an officer, it is 3.5 miles from my home. This picture is taken from the 200 yard targets, which also serve as 300 yard and 600 yard.



This picture is from the firing line down to where I took the first picture.

I use 4F swiss as priming powder and 3F/2F Goex as main charge powder in my flinter. Not sure about euro/american differences with swiss powder, but I know swiss uses a less (?) graphite which is why their powder grains look shinier than the equiavlent granulation of goex. Probably also why people say swiss has less fouling than goex. The tradeoff of course if you have to be more careful about moisture with swiss.



Gallery loads sound great, saves on black powder since 20-25 grains only gets you ~300 shots from 1lb of powder.

Hmm do you reckon .433 round ball will work for that?

It's a shame that large pistol primers are so expensive right now

Swiss granulations do not respond to the crush of compression the way Goex does. I have not done in depth study on the reason why because generally with black powder issues regarding powder charge don't even begin to show up until you use 5gr. increment differences. I take the so called "experts" and their knowledge for what it is worth and experiment on my own to come up what I consider valuable seat of the pants knowledge. I have heard stories from guys that cut their teeth on black powder who are currently in their 80's and 90's. Some of those guys talk about how the good old stuff was better before the Dupont plant blew up. They talk about what the company makes the charcoal, Artic Willow, Swamp Maple, European Birch (being higher in creosote) being what some speculate why Swiss is hotter, it goes on and on. I know guys that swear by using newpaper between the primer and the case, I know guys that do not crimp their bullet. I do not know any long range BPCR guys that use a filler like dacron or cream of wheat, usually a near full case of powder and a wad of specified thickness to deliver the appropriate compression, bullet seated and inserted into the chamber with no more than thumb pressure, others pre insert the bullet into the chamber with a tool, then insert a cartridge with powder charge and wad. Never ceases to amaze me when you study what the other guy is doing, impressive results by the way. Not as simple as ordering up a certain case lot of RWS R-50 and shooting the 10-ring out at 100yds. By the way some of those BPCR guys swear by certain case lots of powder, I have shot powder from different case lots and can say that it effects the shot about as much as where the sunlight is or if the wind is blowing, not enough to warrant a radical change in sight adjustment.

Applefish,

I have no idea why there is a .433 ball? Do you know what caliber that was designed for?

My antique manuals go back to the 1880’s and the most common ball for Gallery shooting was the .429.

Smith & Wesson gets the prize for actually introducing the gallery ball in approximately 1886 for the New Model 3 Target revolver. The kits were available just prior to the guns I think.

I have no doubt that your .433 ball will work well for the Russian since you are well within tolerances and the ball is much lighter than the standard 230 lead bullet.

Everyone always talks about the 44 Russian and 45 Colt and also the 45 Schofield shooting high. They have the common denominator of being designed for Military use on horseback. So if you factor that in you realize that you can’t shoot the original load and expect to hit the bullseye at any distance under 50 yards without compensating for bullet arch. Plus, filing sights in my opinion impacts value in a negative way.

That’s one gorgeous range Kinman!

In California they are often next to Dumps! There are a few that are nice though.


Murph

Thanks, Our range was secured before it became part of Riverside State Park, we currently hold 40 acres with well over 1000 yards of river front that was granted in perpetuity. We are limited to 600 yards and can only use that by shooting from the shotgun house, midrange trajectory for BPCR is eighteen feet over our parking lot. We have to shut down everything except the indoor range when shooting at 600, it doesn't occur very often. We have a small herd of mule deer that are constantly around that wander across the firing line at their leisure, bald eagles use the waterway to and from lake Coeur D'Alene depending on the season, ospreys nest in nearby trees, this year a Great Horned Owl kicked them all to the curb and raised a single owlet.
I walked the road down yesterday to the 200 yard butts to check conditions and this young doe and her sister greeted me, ambling across the road and up the grade.

Yeah Hornady and Speer make .433 ball to use in 44 cal muzzleloader rifles. With muzzleloaders you use an undersize ball (.433" in a 44 cal; .490" in 50 cal; .530" in a 54 cal) with a fabric patch that is 0.10"-0.20" thick. The undersize ball makes it easy to load, and the tight fit with the fabric patch provides the gas seal.


Reloading with round balls is much cheaper than buying cast lead bullets, and lighter bullets allows you to use less powder and have lower pressures!
In fact I know some people will load 38 special with #000 buck (.360" size round ball) because you can buy several pounds of it for much less than pre-cast 357 bullets.


If you're casting your own lead it then the cost savings aren't really there, but if you don't have room for a casting set up then round ball helps make reloading more affordable

The .433 pure Lead Ball used for gallery rounds with .44 Russian, .44 Special, etc, is reduced in diameter along it's minimal bearing surface, when it is seated into the Cartridge Case.

This allows a tighter fit than a Ball which is .429 or so to begin with, which may then too easily walk out of the Cartridge Case from recoil in preceding shots.

Good ...Great idea

( Many people say SW 44 russians are shooting hight ..)

i make some cartridges .433 Round ball pure lead ( from my Lepage pistol ) with 8 gr of Swiss 3Fg.

Will see if aiming & point of impact are convergent .

Have a day
Patrick

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The only muzzle loaders I know of that shoot a ball more than .005 thousandths under bore size are guys that just want to shoot their firearms will little regard to accuracy. The only time I shoot a ball .010 thousandths under bore is while shooting off hand. I do not use a traditional approach to muzzle loading, I am using ever possible technical innovation available today in order to produce the best possible accuracy. I load a target rifle with a ball at minimum .005 under bore, often over bore size....451 in a .45 caliber rifle. I also use a teflon coated fine thread count fabric patch, I believe the fabric is sourced from light sailboat racing canvas, it is the tightest grain patch fabric I have ever seen. I use a .020 patch with a .535 ball in a muzzle loader that has a .54 bore, it produces excellent accuracy out to 100yds. I shot this group from a bench rest at 50yds, using a Lyman Great Plains Rifle with Lyman target sights...nothing really fancy

Patrick,
Below is a photo of my loads that mimic the original loads designed by Smith & Wesson and found within original "Improved loading kits" from 1887 to 1912. The round nose is the 230 grain lead bullet. *Notice how deep my Gallery ball is? That is based on the original 7 grain FFFG Black powder load with the ball seated firmly against the powder.

Looking at your photo? I have no idea what you have there? The ball is seated way too high. Can you please explain what you did there?

*** Remember that if you overload a Gallery load? You will get a great deal of gas cutting( blow-by) and the bullet will skip off the rifling. Follow the original load and you will see that it's very accurate up to about 15 meters. It's fun to shoot. I also do not lube the bullets until right before I shoot the rounds in order to obtain a perfect soft lube application. The results are excellent.

*** It won't be as accurate as Kinman's nail driving rifle shots at 50 yards but you can certainly hit a baseball sized target over and over again with the gallery ball. I like it a lot. It's fun and you don't waste a lot of powder. 3 shot's of Gallery to 1 shot of standard load.


Murph

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Hi Murph

You are right '' to much high '' too much couscous corn .
this is my first one .

Below the recipe i do : 8gr Swiss 2 , 9 gr Corn , 125 gr pure lead round ball .

I copy your load too with 125 fgr round ball

I shoot tomorrow morning ...
Keep you inform

Have a good week end
Pat

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Dears U.S shooters
If anyone has a file for original Russian SW44 "original improved loading kit " from 1887 to 1912.
Thanks for sharing
I appreciate
Patrick

Hi Patrick,
My research has confirmed 5 actual loading kits for Smith and Wesson revolvers and one for the Revolving Rifle. Beginning in late 1871. Likely the first kit was introduced in 1872 for the American and Russian in 44 caliber. (Extremely Rare)

So lets just focus on the later kits to make it simple? The kit you are asking about was actually the 4th kit or Improved kit seen in Photo 1.

I originally believed this kit introduced the "Gallery" or ball in 1887 but I recently found a kit that predates this "Improved Kit" by 1 year. So the "Gallery" or ball was introduced in 1886 for the New Model 3 Target revolver and remained until approximately 1912.

Photo 2 shows what the later kits look like in the original box. Showing the legible instructions on the inner lid.

Photo 3 is from an original loading manual that dates to the year 1887 and clearly shows accurate loading data for the 44 Russian. I also believe that the 256 grain conical bullet was introduced this same year to offer an alternate "heavy" to the original 230 grain round nose. I also cross referenced this early loading manual and proved the information to be absolutely accurate since "ALL" the loading data contained within this antique manual "MATCHES" all known factory loading data for dozens of different calibers listed. It's my absolute best reference manual!

***** NOTE: All of the instructions from the earlier to latest kits clearly state: The operator must push the ball/bullet all the way down into the case with the plunger until the plunger is flush with the die. So in this case you must push the ball all the way down against the powder load of 7 grains of FFFG with the 110 grain round ball. Or the optional 8 grains of FFFG with 130 grain round ball.

Murph

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Fantastic ... Historical...
I will try this loading in my SW 44 russian made in 1877.
Back to the past....
Thank's a lot Murph

Whenever you are referring to the type and granulation of black powder please use the F description. I went out and checked a late shipment of Swiss I have out in the vault and sure enough Swiss 1-1/2F is labelled with a No.2 its also in a new plastic can.
That must be a European measurement, those of us in the New World are used the F labelling (1F is shotgun musket powder), (1-1/2F is large rifle cartridge powder), (2F is large caliber rifle powder), (3F is light caliber cartridge, muzzle loader rifles and most pistols), (4F is priming powder.) These are generalities as each firearm is different, just a general rule to go by.

Yes Sir
i will do .. Fg

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suisse BP grade.jpg (21.0 KB, 20 views)

Patrick,
Here are some good bullets/ molds to use for the 44 Russian. I have quiet a few since the 44 cal is so common and very long standing so variations are almost endless.
It shoots wadcutters wonderfully and medium weight bullets up to 225 grain at distances up to 30 meters. Heavier than that you need to extend the distance and increase the load to standard.

Murph

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Nice shooting!!

Not to hijack the thread, but thanks to Helipat's questions and your responses, I've already learned a lot about my new acquisition. For instance, it isn't likely that it was refinished by Smith & Wesson since there is nothing under the grips. The chambers seem correct for .44 Russian with the one step in the chamber. Here's a few pics.

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That's beautiful! Congratulations!

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Dear all

Back from the shooting range ..Cold , the steel are very cold
3 degres Celsius , At 0 water become ice .

First i modify for test my front sight to have a correct point of impact (aiming under the black target ) I have gluing a little piece of copper on the front sight ( + 1,1 mm high )
copper sight.jpg

Try shooting different load
- gallery load recipe with 8 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 Fg .8gr gallery load.jpg
- 8gr of suisse FFG with corn and a 125 gr round ball on top. Best group 8GR ffg + corn +125 GR Round ball.jpg
-12 gr swiss FFG and corn compress with a 125 gr round ball crimp on top .12gr FFG RB 125.jpg

I reach bull eye with 12gr , sound and recoil are good .
200 swc are to high .

Happy , I reach my goal .

I would like to thank you all for your advices and comments .

I will fire this revolver with only Black powder despite opinions of some friends .

I wish you ''un bon bout d 'An '' ''best end of year ''
Patrick

Bonnes vacances à toi, Patrick!

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Good work, I'm glad to see others enjoying messing around with obsolete firearms and getting excellent results along the way. Given time and adequate experimentation a firearm will usually render positive results. Of course much of the result depends on what condition the firearm is in to begin with. Yours appears to be rendering the appropriate results, it also appears that your skill level has much to do with the end result. Congrats....Good Shooting.

I found a listing on gunbroker of someone selling the original 44 S&W gallery cartridge: it looks like ball seating depth is somwhere between the loads you both have!

44 S&W Russian Gallery Ball - Vintage Ammo at GunBroker.com : 885444816





It's not seated deep into the case like the 38-44 target loads. Not sure what was originally used as filler, maybe they used wads?

Applefish

This is one of those subjects that needs more clarification often it seems?

This is “NOT” A Gallery load or “BALL” load. The listing is in ERROR

Remember that the 44 Russian was also an “Excellent” Target gun and is clearly listed as one of 3 “TARGET calibers!
44 Russian
32-44
38-44

This is a “conical “TARGET”load. Likely the 106 grain hollow base or heeled bullet. See photo!

The DEAD giveaway is the cannelure groove that is crimped into the brass case below the conical bullet for match loading? I have used this technique myself to match load bullet depth for more accuracy. Commonly used by Major bullet manufacturing with hollow based bullets. WHY? Because the hollow base tends to cause the bullet to sink too deep into a compressed load causing a non uniformed ignition and burn.

So, It’s not a ball. I don’t know why you fellas in France/Canada like to use fill so much? Is it some sort of fetish? Like cheese & crackers? You do realize that fill impacts performance and pressure?


Murph

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