|
|
|
11-21-2020, 05:00 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Model 3 Russian model
Hi all
I'm from France - Provence , just buy a fine revolver S&W 44 russian model military serial number 48840 + [1874].
May a found some information about in the Standard Swith & Wesson book ?
Thank's a lot
Patrick
|
The Following 14 Users Like Post:
|
BubbaShakers, first-model, george_lehr, iby, J. R. WEEMS, James E. McCall, Kinman, Kurusu, mrcvs, R.J. in Phoenix, raljr1, Speedo2, TennTony, Wiregrassguy |
11-21-2020, 05:07 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: AL Wiregrass
Posts: 7,224
Likes: 34,841
Liked 10,790 Times in 3,676 Posts
|
|
Bienvenue sur les forums du Wiregrass! That is a beautiful example, Patrick! Does it have an 1874 inside a diamond on the butt? It's a Third Model Russian and if the stampings are all in English it is a commercial version, not military.
Guy
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-21-2020, 05:20 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Thanks you reply
No diamond , just serial 48840 and 1874 inside a rectangle on the butt .
Marking on Barell is on english ''SW patent bla bla russian model''
I will taking pictures later .
Patrick
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-21-2020, 05:22 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: AL Wiregrass
Posts: 7,224
Likes: 34,841
Liked 10,790 Times in 3,676 Posts
|
|
Yes that would be a commercial 3rd model Russian.
Guy
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-21-2020, 05:39 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helipat13
Thanks you reply
No diamond , just serial 48840 and 1874 inside a rectangle on the butt .
Marking on Barell is on english ''SW patent bla bla russian model''
I will taking pictures later .
Patrick
|
Please take some nice pictures for us, outside, using indirect natural sunlight?
Do you load for and shoot the old Guns?
Last edited by Oyeboteb; 11-21-2020 at 05:42 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-21-2020, 05:55 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Dears
Yes , i shoot with my old guns .
I reload with Swiss black powder and pure lead bullet .
Target 25 meters .
Soon i'm back home , i will take for you picture with natural light . [ one week ]
I 'm looking for the manufacture date ?
S/N 48840.
Thank you
Patrick
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-21-2020, 06:18 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: AL Wiregrass
Posts: 7,224
Likes: 34,841
Liked 10,790 Times in 3,676 Posts
|
|
Patrick, the top serial number for the third model was 53500. The guns were made from 1874 to 1878. I estimate your gun was made in 1877. But that's a guess.
Guy
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-21-2020, 06:21 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Thanks a lot Guy
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-21-2020, 07:48 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Spokantucky
Posts: 4,131
Likes: 10,413
Liked 6,945 Times in 2,355 Posts
|
|
Beautiful example...
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-21-2020, 08:31 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 949
Likes: 2,094
Liked 841 Times in 345 Posts
|
|
I really like the blue finish
|
11-21-2020, 08:48 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Tincup, CO
Posts: 3,694
Likes: 6,288
Liked 7,472 Times in 2,287 Posts
|
|
Is that finish original? If so, holy moly! If not, simply amazing! I have one that got packed around horseback in Texas for 25 years and it does not look like that. Yes, pictures, please.
__________________
Some collect art; I shoot it!
|
11-22-2020, 12:22 AM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Delta, BC Canada
Posts: 102
Likes: 3
Liked 231 Times in 54 Posts
|
|
I have SN 48982, same 1874 in a rectangle. According to Roy Jinks, mine was shipped from the factory on 13 April 1877, to M.W. Robinson of New York City - S&W's single largest distributor. It is in its original nickel finish, with the original walnut grips.. The assembly number on the cylinder also appears on the inside of the frame. Sounds like yours was made pretty well at the same time?
|
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-22-2020, 05:15 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Dears
Some pictures from the seller
Look like never shoot ...
|
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-22-2020, 05:18 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Some more images
|
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-22-2020, 05:24 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
and the last ...
Hopefully ,next photos will be taken in my home .
Have a good day
Patrick
|
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-22-2020, 05:46 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
I forget barrel adress and assembly number . IMG_9447.JPG
IMG_9450.JPG
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-22-2020, 05:54 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
I forget barrel adress and assembly number . Attachment 482171
Attachment 482172
Hopefully this gun will be in my hands next week
Your advices are welcome.
Have a safe day .
Patrick
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-22-2020, 08:01 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: AL Wiregrass
Posts: 7,224
Likes: 34,841
Liked 10,790 Times in 3,676 Posts
|
|
Breathtaking!
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629
|
11-22-2020, 08:03 AM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Northeast FL
Posts: 5,788
Likes: 7,451
Liked 15,156 Times in 3,623 Posts
|
|
Looks like someone forgot they owned that for 140 years.....My word, that may be the nicest one I've ever seen in pictures that isn't in a museum.
__________________
Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-22-2020, 08:33 AM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,842
Likes: 3,260
Liked 7,111 Times in 1,896 Posts
|
|
That is one amazing revolver (MAYBE??? See "EDIT", below...). If the finish is original, which it appears to be, you have one of the best ones out there!
However, one thing to check is for a date stamp on the frame under the stocks. If it is present, it indicates a factory refinish. For example, if you see "12.29", it means it was back to Smith & Wesson in Dec 1929 for some sort of work, such as a refinish. However, no matter which way you cut it, you own one stunning example!
Did you find it in France?
EDIT: I'm confused. Original photograph appeared to show a pristine blued gun. Other photographs depict a not so pristine nickel gun. All final verdicts and hypotheses withdrawn until that matter is resolved.
Last edited by mrcvs; 11-22-2020 at 09:47 PM.
|
11-22-2020, 08:47 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: AL Wiregrass
Posts: 7,224
Likes: 34,841
Liked 10,790 Times in 3,676 Posts
|
|
The NaturaBuy website is in France.
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629
|
11-22-2020, 03:59 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Spokantucky
Posts: 4,131
Likes: 10,413
Liked 6,945 Times in 2,355 Posts
|
|
Truly museum quality from everything I can see, I would find myself struggling over whether to fire that one. I've seen firearms in less condition given the white glove treatment. You have yourself a truly fine firearm, congratulations.
|
11-22-2020, 05:57 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Delta, BC Canada
Posts: 102
Likes: 3
Liked 231 Times in 54 Posts
|
|
I agree. Stunning, no matter if it's original or factory restored. I would also be hesitant to fire it - it's like owning the Mona Lisa and hanging her up in your bathroom...
|
11-23-2020, 05:35 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Hello
Today was a good ....I got THE gun .
I could not belive this age 143yars old .
Mint condition , God bless me .
Tonight i can't resist to cheering some pictures .
|
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-23-2020, 05:38 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
next ...
Will be with naturel light
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-23-2020, 05:41 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,746
Likes: 1,016
Liked 10,655 Times in 3,388 Posts
|
|
Do original finish Model 3 Russians have purple cylinders and such prominent side plate seams?
__________________
Terry Lester
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-23-2020, 06:37 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Photo from rock island auction
le barillet a une couleur similaire
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-23-2020, 07:21 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,842
Likes: 3,260
Liked 7,111 Times in 1,896 Posts
|
|
Yes, sideplate seam is way too prominent.
I think, unfortunately, your revolver has been reblued. A high quality reblue, but a reblue nonetheless.
How much are you into this one for?
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-23-2020, 07:46 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Spokantucky
Posts: 4,131
Likes: 10,413
Liked 6,945 Times in 2,355 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by lestert357
Do original finish Model 3 Russians have purple cylinders and such prominent side plate seams?
|
Although not a 3rd Model Russian, this is a factory refinish example.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-24-2020, 09:33 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 327
Likes: 432
Liked 480 Times in 133 Posts
|
|
This First Model Russian is a little older and nickle, but this is what an
original sideplate should look like. Still a nice 3rd Model Russian.
Last edited by crossv; 11-24-2020 at 09:52 AM.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-24-2020, 12:29 PM
|
|
SWCA Member Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 3,577
Likes: 7,970
Liked 4,671 Times in 1,606 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcvs
Yes, sideplate seam is way too prominent.
I think, unfortunately, your revolver has been reblued. A high quality reblue, but a re blue nonetheless.
How much are you into this one for?
|
Difficult to be 100% accurate evaluation of condition with just some pictures, however, if dated, it was back to S&W (was that 1922) for service work and likely a refinish but more likely than not it had another refinish performed to it some time after. I'd guesstimate, sometime in the past 30 years.
The latter refinish seems to be a decent refinish but not likely another S&W refinish.
Metal prep and prominent outline of side plate (plate edges seem rounded), and black upper facing posts and front barrel end make me further think I am correct. S&W factory repairmen do not round off side plate outline.
On a perfectly restored, or original finish, Model 3, the side plate outline is nearly invisible and plate perfectly flush all the way around.
You'll find out soon enough when you get it, in hand.
I'm hoping the best for you, however, seems the chances of that gun now wearing a factory S&W refinish is just about moot.
all the best, Sal Raimondi, Sr.
__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-24-2020, 12:59 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinman
Although not a 3rd Model Russian, this is a factory refinish example.
|
This is a refinish example, but not a Factory Refinish example.
|
11-24-2020, 01:42 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Thanks for your comments.
Since the beginning i smelling something wrong .
To nice to be true .
I already clean the revolver and inside barrel was very very dirty .
I gess your are right ''Has been reblue ''
the mechanical work and play are superbe , no gap ,no play , Very thight
The job was weel done .
I purchased this revolver for shooting ''Black powder only .2 times Italian replica price.
The rifling are good , sharp and shining only 3 pitting spot are present .
After 300 round i will see if the reblue is good .
Thank you very for your comments
Next step are fire shooting , but we are still confined ( shooting range are closed)
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-24-2020, 01:58 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,842
Likes: 3,260
Liked 7,111 Times in 1,896 Posts
|
|
Well, there's your answer, obvious from the start, even before you had the gun in hand.
If the revolver "appears" to be nearly 100% after well over a century and a dealer has it for sale at only twice the price of a reproduction, the dealer is either very ignorant, which is possible, although unlikely, or he is well aware that it is a reproduction.
"If it's too good to be true, it usually is!"
|
11-24-2020, 03:08 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Thank you very much for your advice .
It remains a beautifull revolver ... Ready for shooting
Next ,i will post more picture in action. Just for fun
Great pleasure to exchange with you .
Patrick
|
11-24-2020, 07:22 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Spokantucky
Posts: 4,131
Likes: 10,413
Liked 6,945 Times in 2,355 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyeboteb
This is a refinish example, but not a Factory Refinish example.
|
Experts abound, this is about the best I can do besides including a copy of the letter.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-24-2020, 08:01 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 949
Likes: 2,094
Liked 841 Times in 345 Posts
|
|
is this a Richard Crossier gun?
|
11-24-2020, 08:19 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: AL Wiregrass
Posts: 7,224
Likes: 34,841
Liked 10,790 Times in 3,676 Posts
|
|
The stamps indicate a standard blue refinish at the factory in July 1956.
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629
|
11-25-2020, 01:12 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy
The stamps indicate a standard blue refinish at the factory in July 1956.
|
I'm sorry!
I had thought the Trigger Guards were meant to be case color, like the Hammer...
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-25-2020, 08:13 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Dears
First time i see my revolver on naturel day light .
Honestly i do not understand why this gun has been reblue . ( IF has been reblue ) Threse is no defect visible on the steel . ( under the blue coat )
Please ,expert , give me your feeling .
Feel free for any comments , i need advice from US specialist
Thanks a lot
Patrick
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-25-2020, 09:48 AM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,842
Likes: 3,260
Liked 7,111 Times in 1,896 Posts
|
|
If you have looked at enough of these, you get a sense as to what the normal hue of the bluing is from that era. Yours is distinctly more. Purple than it should be.
Also, the seam between the sideplate and the frame is much too distinct on yours. This is from buffing the frame and sideplate independently and causing softening to the edges. It should be nearly invisible.
Whomever did the refinish did a good job, and did not blue areas that originally were not blued and did not overbuff most components. But, still reblued, nonetheless.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-25-2020, 10:36 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Thank you Sir
|
11-25-2020, 10:48 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Spokantucky
Posts: 4,131
Likes: 10,413
Liked 6,945 Times in 2,355 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by iby
is this a Richard Crossier gun?
|
Yes, His pictures are amazing I downloaded them knowing I would never get that good a quality on my own.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-29-2020, 09:13 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Hi
Today shooting 25 meters : Starline 44 russian .429 200GR with 15 GR Swiss 1 ( BP 4fg)
Enjoy ... Shoot hight , strong trigger .
Aiming at the bottom target
Aiming gun is not done for 25 meters .
Next time will try 50 meter , lighter and heavy bullet with more black powder
Patrick
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-29-2020, 12:07 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,884
Likes: 1,804
Liked 4,550 Times in 1,672 Posts
|
|
Pattern shooting
That's a great pattern for 25 meters! Some folks have posted much worse target results at 10 & 15 meters!
I recommend you put a round red dot at the bullseye location to tighten your pattern even more.
Good shooting!
**** Just a word of warning? FFFFG ( 4fg) is probably a little bit too stout for this large a caliber pistol. Especially in Swiss. Be careful. Probably why your pattern is so tight....That's some hot loads! Probably why your 200 grain bullet is shooting high at 25 yards from a heavy frame 44? Those loads are "HOT"!
Original loading data from the 1880's lists FFG(2f) with a compressed load or FFFG(3f) with a standard case filled with powder. NO references that I have recommends FFFFG(4f). IN fact they warn against using it. That powder is a very fast burner and used for pan powder to ignite the main charge only.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 11-29-2020 at 12:25 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
11-29-2020, 03:37 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: France
Posts: 42
Likes: 28
Liked 89 Times in 31 Posts
|
|
Thank a lot for your advice .
I will try with different granulometry.
I have all Swiss black powder .
Good evenight
Patrick
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
11-29-2020, 04:46 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Spokantucky
Posts: 4,131
Likes: 10,413
Liked 6,945 Times in 2,355 Posts
|
|
Frankly I am surprised everything held together with that much 4F. I never keep a can of 4F anywhere near anything that I am shooting because of its extra volatility. I remember one of our muzzle loaders talking about using a load of 4F in his .45 percussion rifle. He said it was real quick and even had the added advantage of re-cocking his hammer for him...we all laughed at his joke, but he wasn't joking. He wondered what we all thought was so funny and we explained how the over pressure load was truly blowing the hammer off the cap with such force that it was re-cocking the piece. He was lucky it didn't fly off.
In our muzzle loading crowd we have an award given to someone that forgets to put powder down before seating a ball (dry ball). There are two methods to get the ball out, one is to put a ball puller on a ramrod, drop it down and screw it into the ball, then pulling it out with a friend or we have installed a bracket onto a roof truss that allows one to do it alone. The other method is to either remove the nipple, some bolsters have a "clean-out" screw which can be removed allowing a clear shot into the breech. After removal of whatever you have you then pour a small amount of 4F into the hole and poke or lightly tap the rifle to get as much as possible hopefully behind the ball or into the pathway from nipple to breech, reinstall whatever you removed to allow access, install a cap, aim down range and fire...with just that small amount of 4F that ball usually travels 50 meters or more.
|
11-29-2020, 04:55 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Spokantucky
Posts: 4,131
Likes: 10,413
Liked 6,945 Times in 2,355 Posts
|
|
Refinish or otherwise that is a splendid example. You can usually see a difference in all of the gaps, even at the latch area, although very fine the gaps are off by a mere millimeter or less, a hair's breadth is enough of a difference, especially at the sideplate.
|
11-29-2020, 05:32 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helipat13
Thank a lot for your advice .
I will try with different granulometry.
I have all Swiss black powder .
Good evenight
Patrick
|
Did you have an air space in the Cartridge with 15 Grains of 4F?
I hope not! and in case you may not know, an air space is never to be present in any Black Powder Load.
As Murph mentions, we best use 3 F in this Cartridge, which is what it was designed to have, and always, we need to have no Air space at all, between Powder and Bullet.
Standard Loading for .44 Russian is 23 Grains 3 F.
If you are using new modern Brass, you will have to compress heavily if wishing to use 23 Grains.
Or, you can reduce the charge empirically so that you use how-ever many Grains of 3 F as will compress about 3 mm or so, for the Bullet to be seated and crimped to it's normal seating depth.
If you want Powder Charges lower than that, you can add some fine dry Corn Meal or Malto Meal between Powder and Bullet, so it gives you the same compression and seating depth for the Bullet to crimp where it is meant to crimp.
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
|