Hi all,

I'm the proud new owner of a .44 Russian DA Top Break and I've been researching it as thoroughly as I can. I seem to have hit a wall with trying to locate a repair manual if one even exists. I've found a fellow member on this website who is going to be shipping me a new stirrup to replace the broken one that I found under the grips. Currently looking for a new cylinder stop if I have the correct part identified as my cylinder has a slight amount of play if I move it around while its locked up.

My DA Has the longer 1 9/16 Cylinder and as I understand it you can load and shoot .44 Special in these ones they just don't extract properly since the casing is too long. Has anyone had any experience with this or should I just be sticking to .44 Russian? Any pros/cons that could be offered would be appreciated.

I'm still in the waiting phase of the government to send me my PAL and then it will be time to shoot the thing!

"..you can.." but I wouldn't recommend .44 Special in this old-timer. Stick to .44 Russian; it's accurate.

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Mike Maher #283

Welcome to the forum the experts will be along shortly. Glad you are getting help with the part you need. As to the cylinder stop I do not think you will locate a new one. As to a little play this is normal as long as it times correctly should not be an issue. How much play does it have if it is truly slight you should be fine. I would not recommend using 44 spl brass unless your intention is to shorten it to the correct length. 44 Russian ammo is available as is correct brass.

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Randy

No, .44 Special is a longer Case than .44 Russian, and the Cylinder Chamber has a 'step' which divides Cylinder Chamber from Cylinder Bore.

If .44 Special Cartridges chamber, then someone bored the Chambers deeper, and did a lot of damage in doing so.

Please do not use .44 Special Cartridges in this Revolver.


Post us some good, well lit images looking in to the Cylinder Chambers?

For the many reasons stated above, please do not shoot .44 special through that revolver. I've loaded .44 Russian cartridges to specs under factory and find it quite stout for such an older development. I have shot smokeless .44 Russian cartridges manufactured by Black Hills in both my 3rd Model and .44 Special chambered SAA and found them mild but definitely serious enough to comprehend stopping power. With black powder loads the buck and roar is very satisfactory and unlike the recoil of smokeless is the usual "push" and typical "boom" of black powder rather than the sharper snap and bang of smokeless.
.44 Russian gained some traction with the "Cowboy Action" group because of its light recoil and accuracy potential. If you own a .44 Magnum you can shoot Magnum, Special, Russian, and American all in the same piece...there might be an issue with the early .44 American because of its heeled bullet if I remember correctly.

Thanks for the advice everyone, I will 100% stick with shooting exclusively .44 Russian BP loads out of my revolver.

Here are the images of the cylinders.







Fixed the images.

The play seems very minimal, half a mm maybe.

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! It looks like someone has reamed your Chambers. That's too bad. Just stick to shooting Russian in it.

Guy

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Thats a great looking shooter...you'll love the black powder experience if your not already tuned in. My standard .44 Russian black powder load is 18gr. of Old Eynesford Goex 3F over a .030 vegetable wad, WLP primer around 1.255 OAL, you can substitute Swiss or straight Goex if you like. I use a 200 gr. RNFL "cowboy" bullet. I like Old Eynesford Goex because it burns cleaner than straight Goex and gives a sharper ignition...quicker. Swiss is the absolute best but is a couple bucks more per pound and I only use it in competition or when accuracy really counts. Straight Goex likes more compression than O.E and Swiss so you might bump that wad up to .060 if running straight Goex. I don't push the powder any further with these old girls, that is a very accurate load in any of my .44 special chambered revolvers. The point of impact is significantly different than while shooting .44 special but it still provides a very tight group and I can see why the "Cowboy Dudes" like it.

That was my suspicion too because I couldn't identify any step that I had been reading about. Will the removal of the step affect the performance of the gun in any way? Why would someone remove the step?

Thank you very much for the load information, I'm very eager to begin loading my own rounds. Is there a preferred die set to use? Is there a vendor that sells the lead bullets? I did look into the lead melting pot and getting a mould but I'm not sure if I want to start pouring my own lead at this point!

Also the wad goes between the powder and the bullet instead of lubing up the grease groove?

For all of your needs check out Buffalo Arms, I have no financial gain by recommending them, they have everything you are going to need. I would recommend getting your bullets already cast and lubed. I use the same bullet in my 44-40s and get them from Lazer Cast, my Uberti requires a .427 bullet and the rest of the crew don't recognize any difference. The wad serves as a cushion between the powder charge and the bullet, it also serves to take up the extra space between the seated bullet and the powder charge. With black powder it is imperative that you never have any space between your powder and the bullet...REMEMBER...Black Powder is an explosive not a propellent. I often use a filler like Cream of Wheat between a black powder charge and ball or bullet, especially in my Ruger Old Army .44 cap and ball revolver, the CoW also helps reduce the fouling, it would be nice if it didn't smell like burned bisquits.
The chamber of an Old Army will hold something on the order of 44 grs. of 3F Goex, you only need 20grs to shoot a nice tight group at 25 yds, add 10 grs. of CoW, and a thick pelubed wad and when the ball is seated it is flush with the chamber...perfect without all the fuss of 44 grs which includes battering the firearm.

Indeed - it looks like someone bored the Cylinder Chambers all the way through so you basically have all Chamber and no Cylinder Bore now.

This means the Bullet has space around it in the Cylinder Bore and with that, there would be a lot of "Blow By" and likely leading.

Cylinder Bores are supposed to be Bullet diameter ( and or Bullet is supposed to be mighty close to Cylinder bore diameter ) so the Bullet fits well or even almost snug, and so there is very little blow by.

I have a Merwin Hulbert single action in .44 Russian, which someone did this to...so, we run in to examples of this now and then.

Bored through chambers were the norm for Outside Lube Heeled Bullet Cartridges, where the bullet Diameter was the same diameter as the Cartridge Case, but Inside Lube Bullets are the inside diameter of the Cartridge Case and their Cylinder Chambers are meant to have the 'step' dividing Cylinder Chamber ( Cartridge Case Length ) from Cylinder Bore, where the Bullet is when waiting to be fired.

I have a very similar S & W 'DA' Long Cylinder Revolver to yours, and if I can get it rounded up, I'll post a picture looking down in to the Cylinder so you can see the 'step' and what it should look like.

In theory an able Gunsmith would be able to make and fit some right diameter liners to the ends of the Cylinder Bores to bring things back to spec.

Such a gorgeous old Revolver you have, too!

So, we are calling this a modified chamber? Let’s see, according to the OP it’s a 1 9/16th cylinder length? I’m looking at those photos of the chambers and if those are reamed out? I’m the pope.
You sure it’s not a 44-40 Frontier??? Try chambering a 44 WCF!
Also, what is the serial number range of that gorgeous Frontier?

Notice in the photo you can see the S&W logo on the frame? That’s proof it’s later that 1898. Id bet given the condition the serial number is higher than 11,000 and lower than 15,500. Which means it’s a Frontier 44?

I’ll go further with my researched guess? I’m guessing that the OP can read? Any Smith & Wesson DA that was manufactured post 1902 has the caliber stamped clearly on the left side of the barrel. In this case it would be 44 Winchester.

Since it’s not stamped the gun was assembled pre-1902. So that puts it between 1898-1902 as the assembly/shipped date.


Murph

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i am excited to see both opinions of reamed Verses not reamed. i try to never pass up a chance to glean a little more Smith knowledge. kenny

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Too good

Serial # 450XX

I will be making a casting of the cylinder once I'm home later and will get my digital caliper out and post some pictures and we can all sit around and discuss who has done what here.

Mine serial number 24379 apparently has been reamed as well this thread got me to wondering, so I pulled the cylinder a 44 mag will fully seat (see photos).

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Randy

Something in the pie isn’t sweet here. That high a serial number on the frame must have a caliber stamp on the barrel. Must be a put together. Check for matching serial numbers on frame, back of cylinder, barrel latch, and small flat area on back of barrel.
Possibly swapped a 44 WCF cylinder and possibly earlier barrel. I still do not believe those chambers are modified.

This has to be a Frankenstein!

I just noticed from the OP’s photos that he has an early barrel based on the patent dates. It’s a put together. A late 44 Russian with a 44 WCF barrel and cylinder is my guess.

I agree with bubbashakers. No serial number on the cylinder just a U? If that cylinder is original that’s the best ream job I’ve seen! Doesn’t make much sense to me. What makes sense is a 44 WCF cylinder to increase cartridge power?

Absolutely amazing!

Murph

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What, if anything, is the significance of the U stamped on the rear of the OP's cylinder?

**** I'm on my laptop now. Looking closely at the chambers? It's possible that this cylinder was "sleeved". If you look at the face of the cylinder I'm seeing what might be round lines that may signify a sleeve job. Might be what the U' stands for with a serial number lacking on the back of the cylinder. I can believe that but for what purpose? Still in my opinion a bad idea. It's still a black powder barrel that has "black powder" rifling. Top breaks are also not known for their strength.

Murph

This revolver was in a recent gunbroker auction. From the pictures I saw, the serial number on the cylinder does match the frame, but the number on the cylinder appeared to have been restamped (different font than other revolvers from this era, numbers punched individually and misaligned). The cylinder (and possibly the frame) also showed other evidence of being refinished.

I wonder if this could be a Special Order in another caliber? The New Model #3 SA was chambered in various calibers to include .44 RF Henry, .44 American, .45 Schofield, .45 Webley (and MKI & MKII). Could one of these be the mate?

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Mike Maher #283

My finger was covering the serial number on the cylinder.

Yea as far as I understand the fellow I got it from in Quebec bought it through the auction site.

Darknight, regardless of caliber or modifications or not. If you look at post #6, photos 3 and 4, one will see that the barrel to frame "Joint Pivot Pin" is proud - or sticking above the barrel hinge. It needs to be indexed (witness marks aligned) and moved flush. Unscrew the pivot pin a few turns and align the marks on the right side, tap the pin in and tighten the screw. Gunsmith would charge you $40 bucks for this.

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Mike Maher #283

Good eye you have there. Done and done.

Already talked with the seller, he will be refunding me and the pistol will be going back to him. I'm not about to be putting work into something that I expect to be reliable to fire when it's clearly been messed around with.

I thank everyone here for their expertise and knowledge on this. I'm super glad I came here to inquire more about it and gain some valuable insight.

Good decision...

Such a lovely old S & W, but indeed, you will be much happier with an example which is 'right' in it's originality and chambering.

The few I have are all .44 Russian, one a long cylinder example as your example is, and following original Loading, ( and using 3 F Swiss ) it is a quite stout Cartridge.

In a Blind-Fold Test, one would think one was firing .45 Colt.

Energy delivered to the Target is about the same as .45 ACP.

I have to use the old 'Jelly Bryce' Grasp, ( one hand shooting ) or else it will bark skin off my Knuckle in recoil.

Find one which is right, and you will have a lot of fun and satisfaction owning it..!

For those collectors that study factor S&W repair / refinish markings. It was either repaired / refinished at the factory but may have also been repaired / refinished by someone with professional / factory skills.

Talking about one picture being worth 1000 words, the picture of the barrel number(s) and repair date in the rear recess (with latch lifted) is something I have not ever seen before in this exact manner, position, font, style and location. I have an american also refurbished in the 1920s and stamped similarly but on the left side of the grip frame and NOT in the barrel recess. Type looks just about the same to mine.

Mine also has a STAR (*) in the serial number on the butt, however, there was not really a cold and hard rule for stamping the star (*) on the butt near the serial number or NOT stamping the star (*) at all ... in and about this given time frame (early 1900s) esp 1910s-1930s or thereabout.

If we can believe these stampings to be S&W Factory authentic stamps , the gun was sent back to S&W in JULY of 1926, at which time it seems a used (scrap or leftover at factory) was originally installed to SN: 6279 ? (not sure of the last digit) then restamped to match the SN of the gun # 45084

best regards, Sal Raimondi, Sr.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

The quality of the work is certainly top notch. The gun looks wonderful but I just can't get past the cylinder chambers? This gun "must be" a 44 WCF in order to be a factory job. It "can not" be a 44 Russian simply because the chambers DO NOT have case stops milled within them. I can't believe that the factory would not follow this very basic machine work procedure for that caliber. The OP never did confirm caliber. In my opinion a 44 WCF must chamber in this gun or it is not factory work!

The only other modification would be 44 Special. I'm not believing that they would even consider that "smokeless" alteration. Even if they did? "case stops" would still be applicable or like Phil mentioned, bullet performance would be horrible!

Murph

Good Eye!

What sense do you make of the unusual chambering? ( ie no 'step' )

6273 - to my own glance...

The 6273 font looks right to me for the time period when the Revolver would have been originally made...

The 45084 font as seen on the Cylinder Face and Barrel Latch, looks much later, and or, not at all a font from the latter 1800s...while the 45082 on the Butt is an old font and looks right for the time period.

So, all of this would seem to affirm nicely, your analysis of the Factory repair or re-do of July 1926, possibly with further attentions later from who knows who ( such as the Chamber modifications or bore-through we see it to have now.

Good observations there!

This helped me to move up a little more in my own "things to be aware of" when looking over these old Revolvers.

Thank you!

This would be an interesting one to 'Letter', even if a lost cause in it's way.

Hi Murph!

.44-40 is a larger diameter Cartridge Case at least at the base, ( .471 ish, in theory ) and would have a thinner section there between Chambers and outside of Cylinder than .44 Russian ( .457 ish, in theory ).

.44-40 would also show a slightly tapering chamber and a 'step' if possibly a slightly smaller step than .44 Russian, and the step of course would be a little farther down.

Usually people's "Bore-Throughs' to naively convert .44 Russian to .44 Special with no step, will leave slight helical or other drill Marks in the Chambers and Cylinder bore, but not always...and we see none present with this example.

I have a Colt m1917 someone did this to also, they just walked over to a Drill Press, elected a more or less appropriate diameter Drill Bit, and bored all the Chambers straight through, imagining that this is what one would do to convert from .45 ACP to .45 Colt.

Eeeesh!

I knew the guy who did it, Lol, and he was entirely naive and confident he had done things right..and this one is quite smooth and slick in the extended Chambers also, no swirl or drill marks...and bored straight through...( Ugh!!! )

I have no S & Ws in .44-40, but i do have a Colt 'New Service' in .44-40, so...

Here's looking down in to the Cylinder Chambers and Cylinder Bores of my circa 1903 Colt "New Service" Revolver in .44-40.

I'd forgotten, but with .44-40 we would expect to see two 'steps', not just one -


Viz:

Hosted on Fotki

HI Phil,
Happy Thanksgiving to all.

I agree with the signature that is normally left within the cylinder of a 44 WCF revolver chamber when it is either left loaded for a long time or if it is shot a lot. I do not agree that those are machined steps or case stops for the 44 WCF chamber.

Remember, what you are suggesting is that the cylinder on the OP's gun was originally a 44 Russian and that it was machined or reamed out for some "bonehead" reason? See photo 1 of the OP's cylinder chamber....That chamber looks "Totally" mint and original to me! Look closely at it with an open mind...It's Mirror MINT! Just some scum/leading at the end.

The 44WCF chamber for the Colt, M&H, and S&W revolver has a taper(bottleneck) it does not have case stops or what this forum calls steps?. That would cause the case to dimple when shot. Think about it. Machined steps would cause a line in the case when shot! Those are just signatures of loaded storage and shooting. (Corrosion at contact points)

See photo with my feeler in the chamber of a 44WCF SAA cylinder....NO mechanical/machined mark is actually there...It's corrosion! It's not a step or milled case stop like the 44 Russian chamber that separates the chamber from the throat.

The difference is the OP's gun was not stored loaded and was obviously shot very little if at all after the rework.

I have a Frontier 44WCF S&W New Model 3 with "MINT" chambers and there is NO marking whatsoever within the chambers. It was shot very little if at all. That's the way the original 44WCF chamber was milled. Just a slight taper to fit the bottleneck case. Those are not steps.

And again, if you think about it? The 44WCF can not have case stops or steps or the result would be a case with a very distinct line in the brass when shot. That does not happen to the 44WCF case. It's extracted fire formed but no line is present. Smooth in and smooth out.

All we need the OP to do here is try to chamber a 44WCF. That's all I've been basically asking him to do from jump.

Also, if Sal's suggesting is true? What was the factory thinking here with that cylinder? I have no idea? Makes ZERO sense to me. You said it yourself, if this is a 44 Russian? the bullet fit would be horrible. Would the factory do that?

If, however, it is a 44WCF? That makes sense all around.

Murph

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Hey BMur, I do not have access to ammo since I don't have my firearms licence because our government is slow to sign off on them because of Covid. As far as it being .44-40 it's hard to say, the seller that I had bought it off of would have been aware as would hopefully the American exporter that .44-40 does not qualify as an Antique round and is not legal for sale as an Antique at that point.

The original Ad from Gunbroker stated that it was .44 Russian, I hate to think that the gun changed hands quite a few times and no one actually did their research but this is where we end up!

Regardless of it being reamed to except another round, I had been searching for a quality .44 Russian for some time so to know that it would have to be taken to a gunsmith and sleeved and extra work done as well as the barrel and cylinder not being original it did lose some of it's magic for me.

It went in the post today back to the seller and he refunded me 100% of my money and did apologize for my inconvenience. I do hope to be back here with another Top Break to show off, so if anyone does have a nice quality one with a lower serial number and can prove it's antique status (Prior to 1898) and is willing to export to Canada, I'd love to hear from them. The other gun on my list was a Mk1 Webley. Ugly things, but fascinating none the less.

Also to clear up any questions ..

In Canada you're allowed to own handguns but you can only take them to and from the range. You're not allowed to shoot a pistol anywhere else. Even if you're out in the bush. If you are caught you lose your gun/licence and they can seize your other firearms.

The loophole around this is of course an antique firearm chambered in anything but

.22 Calibre Short
.22 Calibre Long
.22 Calibre

.32 Short Colt
.32 Long Colt
.32 Smith and Wesson
.32 Smith and Wesson Long
.32-20 Winchester
.38 Smith and Wesson
.38 Short Colt
.38 Long Colt
.38-40 Winchester
.44-40 Winchester
.45 Colt cartridges

Antique Pistols.. good quality Antique pistols go for quite a bit of money here because of this reason.

Well,
I know where to sell my .41's and 44 Russians now for top dollar.

I also missed the Canada connection? I saw the Quebec purchase but didn't realize that "you" actually lived in Canada? I do need to brush up on my Canada gun laws.

Just a heads up Darknight....It's very common to find altered 44 Russians. Often they were altered to 44WCF. It's also not uncommon for a seller to have no clue what caliber early antique guns happen to be since they were often not caliber stamped. Smith & Wesson's are not caliber stamped until 1902 so they are often found miss-identified. Like Mike mentioned they actually came in multiple calibers. Especially the New Model 3 Single actions. I've played this game my entire collecting experience.

That's why it's one of the games we play often on this forum ."What caliber is it"???? Or, what caliber was it??? Or what caliber was it altered too?? What was this person thinking?

Murph

We have some odd laws here. Cannot have more than 5 rounds in semi-automatics. All full sized mags have to be pinned. Although you're allowed to put 10 round 5.56 Mags from an LAR-10 into semis. Rim-fires are unlimited. You can go to Bass Pro here and buy 110 Round Drum mags.

Recently banned 1500+ Guns because they look scary.

It's interesting for sure.

By all means sell us your .44 Russians, we would love to have them

For future reference "Antique Firearms Assembly/Disassembly" by David Chicoine has a few chapters on the S&W top breaks

Hi Murph!

Hi Darknight!

Every one else!

Looking again to the images of the Revolver Cylinder in question, I realize now, that may-be this is ".44-40" but that it needs to be cleaned and cleaned well in the chambers there to better see the modest "steps" present, if indeed they are present, and, they might be!

Please forgive me not seeing this better before and possibly mis-speaking, in how it looked to me to be a non Factory modification from .44 Russian to being a "Bored Through".

See the image I posted looking in to the Cylinder of my Colt "New Service" .44-40, and I t-h-i-n-k we see a similar placed 2nd ( farthest out - Cartridge Case 'mouth' location) 'step' in the OP's S & W Cylinder, and what may be some old powder fouling crud concealing the more inward step.

If it is not too late Darknight, can you fit a Bronze Bore Bush to a Handle and or those to a hand-held Drill, and use some hot Soapy water, and get that clean in there?

( New to me old Black Powder Revolvers which have old build up fouling, I use my Electric Drill with the Cleaning Rod and Bronze Bore Brush with Hot Soapy Water, to get the old fouling cleaned out...and it Works like-a-charm..! )

This might just be .44-40 after-all..!

So lets say you do find a nice Revolver in .44 Russian...

How are the laws there as respect you being able to load your own Cartridges?

I Load all my own, and mostly the Cartridges I load are Black Powder, and it is easy and fun and very satisfying to load one's own, especially if one can also have a few Molds for early stles of .44 Russian Bullets.

I have a simple old Press, and I can turn out a box of "fifty" in about 45 minutes, with a nice easy pace, start to finish.

Commercial offerings in .44 Russian, are quite limited and relatively boring compared to home Loads, and also, one can use far better Powder, than the Commercial outfits do.

That had to be a tough one, that piece had everything going for to be a great shooter grade .44 D.A.

If your goal was to get a Canadian pre-1898 antique revolver, you might count yourself lucky you were able to refund it, serial numbers in the 45000 range might not be counted as pre-1898, and you'll run into the issues this fellow is having:

Canadian Dilemma




I found this post on a canadian forum that says the canadian registry considers >42,000 to not be antiques
CanadianGunNutz.com

I did talk with our RCMP Firearms division and gave them the serial # of the S&W and they verbally confirmed that it all checks out, I glanced through that thread about the member trying to get 50,000+ serial number registered and I'm pretty sure he made a post about getting one registered in the 49xxx range.

No restrictions on loading your own. Once my licence is here I intended on getting a 1000 pack of Russian cases from Starline , my friend is also searching for a .44 Russian so our plan is to do this together.

Just need to track down the appropriate dies for reloading and source the lead bullets. Our enthusiasm is high!

You can use 44 special dies and you could easily cast your own bullets. A flat nose bullet SWC bullet in the 240 gran range works fine in mine. You will probably have to machine a bit of the bottom of the seating die to get the Russian case to crimp

Image borrowed to show cylinder chambers and Bore of an S & W Top Break in .44 WCF / .44-40 -

Hosted on Fotki

If you look closely in the below 3 images?
You can see the common denominator with the ejector having a distinct taper with the 44 WCF cylinder because of the much larger diameter base/head.

Photo 1: OP’s cylinder having the 44/40 taper
Photo 2: Phil’s example of a 44/40 cylinder with taper
Photo 3: My spare cylinder in 44 Russian. NO taper! Smaller case head diameter.

So the OP’s gun that he already returned was a 44 Frontier.

That’s the easiest way for me personally to tell from a photo. In hand it’s obvious.

Murph

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