Mismatched 1st Model 44 DA - Keep as shooter or 3 day return period?

[applefish]

Hi everyone

The good news is my 1st model 44 DA arrived in the mail today!

The bad news is I have a decision to make. The serial number on the frame (33xxx) doesn't match the serial number of the cylinder (15XXX) or the latch(15XXX).
In the right light you can see that there is more blueing remaining on the barrel than the frame. I'm also not sure if it's been messed with since the side plate fitment isn't exact, though I'm pretty sure it hasn't been refinished.

From the original listing on gunbroker, the seller did include a picture of the serial on the butt and the cylinder face, where you can see the serial numbers. However, he didn't mention this in thetext of the sale, and said that the serial number was just the 33XXX number.



















Fortunately, I have a 3 day inspection period to decide what to do. It appears to function well (though the timing is slow if I cock the hammer while applying pressure to the cylinder, which might mean and old hand), but Im planning on taking it to a gunsmith on Saturday to make sure the function and tolerances are okay.


I was originally looking for a 44 russian as a shooter gun, and since this gun has mismatched parts, it would make sense to keep this as a shooter instead of finding a matched-parts collectible to use as a shooter. I don't plan on refinishing it since there is no rust, but if I do have to refinish it in the future at least I don't have to worry about ruining the historical value


On the other hand, paid $1450 for it.

From my 2016 copy of Jerry Lee's Standard Catalog of Firearms, a 1st model 44 DA should be worth $1300 in good condition and $700 in fair condition, and since there is a major component mismatch, this would fall under fair condition. So I'm not sure if I should return this one and wait for another one to pop up on the market with a matching serial


That leaves me three options, which I wanted your guys input on:


Option 1) Keep it as a shooter and stop worrying

Option 2) Return it and eat the cost of shipping as a lesson to be more careful when looking at pictures

Option 3) Call and ask for a partial refund explaining that the barrel assembly, latch, and cylinder doesn't match the frame, which wasn't made clear enough in the original listing.

What would you guys do?




*As an aside, it has a 6 inch barrel. Is this unusual for the DA models? I understand that the SA new model 3's typically shipped with 6.5" barrels

[cgt4570]

I have a few large frames and fell into some NOS barrels, cylinders and small parts years ago. I've worked on a few and my gunsmith has even made parts.
For that price, I think I'd send it back.
The numbers don't match.
There's very little finish.
It's wearing K frame round butt stocks from post-1910 (that's why they're undersized).
The sideplate has been replaced probably when the other parts were swapped (It should have the SN inside the sideplate).

I had one that Dave Chicoine fixed for me (just before he got sick). It had very little finish but a decent bore and good mechanics (after he fixed the SA hammer notch and slow carry-up). All numbers matched, including the grips. It was a great shooter.
I bought it for $400 and sold it for $850.
Maybe I don't know the current market, but I don't see that being more than a $1,000 gun. :-(

[Rpg]

I guess the question is whether you’re willing to potentially lose $750 for the opportunity to own and shoot a 44 Russian chambered gun. Would that idea bug you forever and destroy your pleasure owning the gun?

I’d decide what I would have paid for the gun, knowing about the mismatched parts, then call the seller, explain your valuation and ask for a refund of the difference between the sales price and what you paid. If you follow this path, you must be prepared to send the gun back if the seller won’t deal. When figuring what you’d have paid for the gun, remember that the book value you quoted is 4 or 5 years old and that functional guns such as this aren’t available at your LGS.

Let us know what you decide.

I’d certainly defer to cgt4570’s opinion on this: he’s my go to expert on antique Smiths.

[Wiregrassguy]

Don't bother with a gunsmith. There is nothing he can do to fix the obvious issues. Send it back and find another one that is not a frankengun.

[murphydog]

I think you could get a nice, matching numbers examples for less than or at what you paid for this one, so my vote would be a return.

[applefish]

Originally Posted by cgt4570

It's wearing K frame round butt stocks from post-1910 (that's why they're undersized).
The sideplate has been replaced probably when the other parts were swapped (It should have the SN inside the sideplate).

Oh dear, you're right, there's no serial number on the side plate. And I guess that explains about the undersized stocks, too

Originally Posted by Rpg

I’d decide what I would have paid for the gun, knowing about the mismatched parts, then call the seller, explain your valuation and ask for a refund of the difference between the sales price and what you paid. If you follow this path, you must be prepared to send the gun back if the seller won’t deal. When figuring what you’d have paid for the gun, remember that the book value you quoted is 4 or 5 years old and that functional guns such as this aren’t available at your LGS.

That's a good point both of you make, and yes, if it turns out I grossly overpaid and he isn't willing to do a partial refund, I'd be willing to sacrifice the cost of shipping ($40 x 2 = $80) and wait a little longer to find a proper one


For those of you more familiar with the 2020 going rates, what's an appropriate price for a 1st model 44 russian DA?

[rct269]

I have virtually no knowledge of the current market on these as respects availability or value, so I probably should just keep my mouth shut and feel sorry for you. On the other hand, it really pains me to see folks pay good money for something I wouldn't carry home if you gave it to me.

I also don't know what the lowest condition grade is in that book I never heard of, but I can't imagine anybody referring to this as fair condition, when there is almost certainly a poor grading-----or something worse.

The last of of my two cents worth is send the gun back---and consider the cost of doing that as tuition in the school of hard knocks.

I guess that wasn't the last of my two cents worth, but I figure this is worth a lot more: There are lots of books written by lots of different folks. One group of authors writes because they love the topic, are possessed of encyclopedic knowledge, and want to share that knowledge. The fact they're paid to write is secondary, because they'd do it for nothing. Another group writes because they know the topic is loved by good sized audience, and they hope enough of them will fork over enough money to make it worth their while. Let me make mention of a few books written by folks in that first group: Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson by Supica and Nahas; History of Smith & Wesson by Jinks; Smith & Wesson 1857-1945 by Neal & Jinks. You might want to add these to your library-----and read them. And you might want to take note of the fact the Standard Catalog is in its FOURTH edition since 1996. My copy of History is from the ELEVENTH printing----in 1992. I don't know what the current printing is. Suffice it to say these books are treasured by the best and the brightest--------and part of the reason they got that way.

Ralph Tremaine

[Rpg]

I’d just look at the $80 shipping as tuition.

[merl67]

I picked this one up May 2019 in a two gun deal I paid $600 for both. I sold the one I did not want for $200. So for $400 I have a refinished matching functional one that shoots pretty good. Probably not the deal of the century, but I am happy. I would think you could find a much nicer example for what you are willing to spend. Patience is the key.

[BMur]

The Market is actually pretty high on these right now. Only, that's an all matching gun...This gun is a shooter at best. I know how you feel about wanting to keep it but you can honestly do a lot better for that price if you take just a little bit more time to look around. Plus the biggest problem with that example is that the value will remain sluggish because it's not matching...That's just the way it is with "shooters"... They aren't investment grade guns. Like Randy mentioned, if you want a shooter grade gun you can do much better than that. If you want a matching gun that has a good amount of finish on it? You might pay a bit more....

I value my shooters but not that much!

Murph

[Jason Demond]

Send her packing.

[iby]

These show up on online auction sites very frequently, so you won't have to wait long to find a better one.
Ditch it and be happy it only cost you $80

[dsf]

If a thing is unacceptable, it seems to me, dickering over price is an indication one is willing to step away from that absolute and the conversation is governed by subjective opinion - I think that takes away from the position that plain and simple, you didn't get what you paid for; and the item wasn't properly described. It's a version of that old joke "we know what you are, now we're just deciding on price ...."

FWIW, whenever I've gotten a gun I wasn't quite happy with it ended up stashed away and never used. Then eventually sold

[andy52]

I passed on one earlier this year in .44 Russian at a auction that was in similar condition with all matching numbers for 950.00 so I'd probably send that one back even though the seller didn't say it was matching.

[lestert357]

Send it back......today, this morning, NOW!

[mrcvs]

The perils of purchasing on Gunbroker <sigh>. IMHO, nearly everything is way overpriced on Gunbroker.

Having said that, a few thoughts. The condition of your revolver is poor. Even if all numbers matched, it's not a $1450 firearm. Not even close... In comparison, I have attached photographs of a .44 Double Action First Model Revolver with condition I purchased earlier this year and I have $2,448.33 into it. It is nearly double what you spent on yours, but it's 100 times the gun! Now, I got an excellent price on it, I'll have to admit, but they are still out there. All numbers matching, of course.

As far as a "shooter", there are far better choices, even if you want to shoot a large bore vintage Smith & Wesson top break revolver. Personally, I would look for a New Model No 3 in .44 Russian. Mechanically, it is far superior to the .44 Double Action First Model revolver.

If you do elect to purchase another (and not keep this one, I hope!) .44 Double Action First Model revolver or a New Model No 3, BLACK POWDER ONLY!!!!

With regards to using these for shooting, the rim of a .44 Russian round is .060". The rim of a .44-40 round is .065". I have never fired the nice one I pictured in this thread, but I also have a "shooter" .44 Double Action First Model that I have fired from time to time using BLACK POWDER rounds I have loaded. The thing is, though, the .44 Double Action First Model makes for a really lousy "shooter", whereas the New Model No 3 does not, because of the rim thickness. I have no problem with the .060" .44 Russian round in the cylinder (or all 6, to be correct) when I fire my New Model No 3 at the range, whereas the .065" .44-40 round, when loaded, does not allow for the cylinder to spin freely, so you are basically using it as a single shot firearm. If you have .44-40 rounds available, stick them into the cylinder of your new purchase, and you will see what I mean. It could also be the tolerances of the .44 Double Action First Model as compared to the New Model No 3, in addition to rim thickness in that the distance from the face of the cylinder to the frame of the revolver might be greater in the New Model No 3 as compared to the .44 Double Action First Model, but even if they are identical, it might be that extra .005" difference between these rounds, or, more correctly, lack thereof, which allows the New Model No 3 to function in a far superior fashion than the .44 Double Action First Model revolver, independent of the former being a superior design as compared to the latter.

[first-model]

FWIW, I bought a factory reblued .44 DA a few years ago for $900. it was sent back in 1951, and to their credit the refinishing job is superb. Numbers match and the grips are correct, and the gun still looks like it was made yesterday.

For what you paid, I'd send this one back. If you ever tried to resell it, you'd be doing well to get a third of what you paid for it.

Mike

[gmborkovic]

Hello OP, I know you and this gun will bug you as long as you have it,
You know what to do.

[sigp220.45]

Wow, $1450 seems really high, even if the gun was corrrect - which it isn’t.

Since you have the opportunity to hit reset on this deal for 80 bucks, thats what I’d do.

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by mrcvs

The perils of purchasing on Gunbroker <sigh>. IMHO, nearly everything is way overpriced on Gunbroker.

Having said that, a few thoughts. The condition of your revolver is poor. Even if all numbers matched, it's not a $1450 firearm. Not even close... In comparison, I have attached photographs of a .44 Double Action First Model Revolver with condition I purchased earlier this year and I have $2,448.33 into it. It is nearly double what you spent on yours, but it's 100 times the gun! Now, I got an excellent price on it, I'll have to admit, but they are still out there. All numbers matching, of course.

As far as a "shooter", there are far better choices, even if you want to shoot a large bore vintage Smith & Wesson top break revolver. Personally, I would look for a New Model No 3 in .44 Russian. Mechanically, it is far superior to the .44 Double Action First Model revolver.

If you do elect to purchase another (and not keep this one, I hope!) .44 Double Action First Model revolver or a New Model No 3, BLACK POWDER ONLY!!!!

With regards to using these for shooting, the rim of a .44 Russian round is .060". The rim of a .44-40 round is .065". I have never fired the nice one I pictured in this thread, but I also have a "shooter" .44 Double Action First Model that I have fired from time to time using BLACK POWDER rounds I have loaded. The thing is, though, the .44 Double Action First Model makes for a really lousy "shooter", whereas the New Model No 3 does not, because of the rim thickness. I have no problem with the .060" .44 Russian round in the cylinder (or all 6, to be correct) when I fire my New Model No 3 at the range, whereas the .065" .44-40 round, when loaded, does not allow for the cylinder to spin freely, so you are basically using it as a single shot firearm. If you have .44-40 rounds available, stick them into the cylinder of your new purchase, and you will see what I mean. It could also be the tolerances of the .44 Double Action First Model as compared to the New Model No 3, in addition to rim thickness in that the distance from the face of the cylinder to the frame of the revolver might be greater in the New Model No 3 as compared to the .44 Double Action First Model, but even if they are identical, it might be that extra .005" difference between these rounds, or, more correctly, lack thereof, which allows the New Model No 3 to function in a far superior fashion than the .44 Double Action First Model revolver, independent of the former being a superior design as compared to the latter.

What Brass are you using for the .44-40?

The .44-40 Brass I have handy, ( older "Balloon Head" ) the Rim thickness so far, is .055.

I'll round up some other ( also older ) Brass I have later, and measure it's Rim thickness also, but I suspect you are using new modern Brass, made carelessly and with over-thick Rims which are maybe okay for reproduction Lever Action Rifles, but which will bind in a latter 1800s original Revolver.

I finally came to just dislike all new Brass for Black Powder Cartridge Revolver, and to eschew it entirely and to stay with Brass which is from when the Guns were made, or at least from well before WWII anyway.

[mrcvs]

It is modern brass, and I should have clarified that this is what happens when one uses modern brass and not early brass. It's not a flaw in the design of the revolver but a change in the brass.

Early brass isn't readily available and it also is more brittle and prone to stress fractures.

The .065" dimension came from my Lyman reloading manual, as did the .060" value for the .44 Russian. I didn't actually measure any time this morning.

[BMur]

I got lucky about 10 years back and bought a 5 gallon bucket About 1/2 full with older 44 Mag brass at a flea market cheap.
Likely dates to the late 50’s/60’s. I use that brass for all of my 44 cals. Just trim the cases to the proper length. ZERO problems!
Magnum Brass tends to be really good stuff!
As far as the 44 WCF? Earlier Brass isn’t difficult to find loose in baggies from older dealers. Even Ballon heads often show up in loose bags. It’s amazing. A true reloaders dream.

Murph

[applefish]

Thanks for the input everyone.
I took all your advice and called the seller for a refund today.

He was friendly at first, but as soon as I mentioned the mis-matched serial numbers he became belligerent and insisted I should have known that the barrel and latch were also mismatched and that he would not refund it, although he only showed a picture of a mismatched cylinder. Eventually he said he would refund it, but insisted on passing me on the gunbroker fees, until I reminded him that gunbroker issues credits on returns. Then he told me he would delay the refund until gunbroker processed the credit (which should only be $51)...

Good thing I paid with credit card because I'm not sure he would have refunded me if I had sent in a money order. At least I have the option of disputing the transaction with Visa if he delays the refund long enough that it pops up on my next credit card bill...




Well based on his reaction I guess you guys were right, he must have had a hard time selling a mismatched revolver before, which is why he was angry at me for requesting a refund.




Now moving onwards: What should I look for in the future when buying these top break S&W revolvers? I know now to make sure that the serial number matches on the butt, cylinder, latch, and in the slot behind the barrel. Any other pointers for spotting something that might not be so good, especially when finding something online?

It's too bad all the gunshows near me are cancelled due to the coronavirus so I won't be able to check them out in person. Any pointers on where to look for one, since these don't pop up at the LGS often?

I never knew finding a good antique would be this difficult, but I'll certainly be asking you guys for input before making any purchases next time!

[BMur]

Good for you.
I recommend you slow down some and do some research on your own.
Take the time to research more and perhaps look through as many websites and resources that you can locate before you dive in. Seems to be a very strong sellers market right now. Next year looks to be likely the end of this virus nightmare so your options will quadruple! You should think about buying some support equipment also. Like collectable reloading tools, etc.

Like my old buddy said; “ There’s always another deal”!

Murph

[first-model]

Originally Posted by applefish

He was friendly at first, but as soon as I mentioned the mis-matched serial numbers he became belligerent and insisted I should have known that the barrel and latch were also mismatched and that he would not refund it, although he only showed a picture of a mismatched cylinder.

I'm sorry that the seller gave you such a hard time on this. My experience is that 99.9% of the people in the antique gun world are honest to a fault.

In terms of moving forward: part of the challenge I just learning what the right questions are to ask. Now you know about the serial numbers ... so when you're looking at another top break, you'll know exactly what to ask the seller.

The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson (now in its 4th Edition) is to go-to reference for most of us on this stuff. There's always more to learn, of course, but you'll do yourself a favor by getting yourself a copy and doing some reading.

A piece of advice I always try to keep in mind is that it's rarely advantageous to hurry into a deal. Take your time, ask questions, and in the case of an internet deal (where you can't examine the gun in your hands), ask for photos. Most honest sellers will be happy to oblige.

Mike

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by applefish

Thanks for the input everyone.
I took all your advice and called the seller for a refund today.

He was friendly at first, but as soon as I mentioned the mis-matched serial numbers he became belligerent and insisted I should have known that the barrel and latch were also mismatched and that he would not refund it, although he only showed a picture of a mismatched cylinder. Eventually he said he would refund it, but insisted on passing me on the gunbroker fees, until I reminded him that gunbroker issues credits on returns. Then he told me he would delay the refund until gunbroker processed the credit (which should only be $51)...

Good thing I paid with credit card because I'm not sure he would have refunded me if I had sent in a money order. At least I have the option of disputing the transaction with Visa if he delays the refund long enough that it pops up on my next credit card bill...




Well based on his reaction I guess you guys were right, he must have had a hard time selling a mismatched revolver before, which is why he was angry at me for requesting a refund.




Now moving onwards: What should I look for in the future when buying these top break S&W revolvers? I know now to make sure that the serial number matches on the butt, cylinder, latch, and in the slot behind the barrel. Any other pointers for spotting something that might not be so good, especially when finding something online?

It's too bad all the gunshows near me are cancelled due to the coronavirus so I won't be able to check them out in person. Any pointers on where to look for one, since these don't pop up at the LGS often?

I never knew finding a good antique would be this difficult, but I'll certainly be asking you guys for input before making any purchases next time!

I actually really like your old S & E "DA" a lot, even with it's mis-matched parts and K Frame Stocks - all in all, it presents well, and has a nice hard won handsome look of an old 'Working Gun', while still being in pretty good condition on the outside.

If timing and lock-Up and Bore are good, I'd be happy with it if it were mine and I were into it somewhere in the 8s.

So, one possibility ( which may not fly any better than last effort with seller did,) would be, if seller would refund say around $600.00 you would not be in to it so deep as to loose any sleep, and $800.00 ish is a fair-enough price for this Revolver as it is here in wacky '2020' land.

The first thing I noticed about it though, was how dry and no hint of any old or new lube at all anywhere, and how desperately it cries out for some decent Gun Oil for it's various moving parts!

[applefish]

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

I actually really like your old S & E "DA" a lot, even with it's mis-matched parts and K Frame Stocks - all in all, it presents well, and has a nice hard won handsome look of an old 'Working Gun', while still being in pretty good condition on the outside.

If timing and lock-Up and Bore are good, I'd be happy with it if it were mine and I were into it somewhere in the 8s.

So, one possibility ( which may not fly any better than last effort with seller did,) would be, if seller would refund say around $600.00 you would not be in to it so deep as to loose any sleep, and $800.00 ish is a fair-enough price for this Revolver as it is here in wacky '2020' land.

The first thing I noticed about it though, was how dry and no hint of any old or new lube at all anywhere, and how desperately it cries out for some decent Gun Oil for it's various moving parts!

You know handling it and all it it seemed like it would have made a great shooter -- but after hearing input from everyone I would not want to get stuck with it having sunk in so much
Now that it's in the mail, part of me wishes I didn't ask and just kept it as a shooter, but I guess that's just buyers (refunders?) remorse.



And yeah as soon as I called him and mentioned the mismatched numbers, his reaciton tells me there was no way he would do a partial refund, let alone for ~$600.

I originally thought of explaining to him the issues and asking him for a partial refund of $200-300, but when he got angry and told me "there's no way I'm taking it back the gun functions fine" well the plan of asking for a partial refund went away, and I had to remind him of his return policy to get him to agree to take it back...

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by applefish

You know handling it and all it it seemed like it would have made a great shooter -- but after hearing input from everyone I would not want to get stuck with it having sunk in so much
Now that it's in the mail, part of me wishes I didn't ask and just kept it as a shooter, but I guess that's just buyers (refunders?) remorse.



And yeah as soon as I called him and mentioned the mismatched numbers, his reaciton tells me there was no way he would do a partial refund, let alone for ~$600.

I originally thought of explaining to him the issues and asking him for a partial refund of $200-300, but when he got angry and told me "there's no way I'm taking it back the gun functions fine" well the plan of asking for a partial refund went away, and I had to remind him of his return policy to get him to agree to take it back...

Was this a Gunbroker Auction?

If so, I'd enjoy to watch it when he re-lists it! ( Not that I intend to bid, but...just for fun...)

Glad he took it back anyway!

Be careful out there!

[applefish]

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

Was this a Gunbroker Auction?

If so, I'd enjoy to watch it when he re-lists it! ( Not that I intend to bid, but...just for fun...)

Glad he took it back anyway!

Be careful out there!

Yes it is

Though I will hate you forever if you guys all told me to return it only so you could snag it for yourself

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by applefish

Yes it is

Post us the link to the expired auction?

I would like to see how the seller describes it, when they re-list it ( assuming they will re-list ).

Though I will hate you forever if you guys all told me to return it only so you could snag it for yourself

No worries there, Lol...


I think I was the only one here who liked it, but I would not be a player for it - I have a few lovely ones as is, and I am satisfied.

Our "Official House Gun" here is a DA in .44 Russian...they are such fun old Revolvers, and great for barking Skin off one's middle finger knuckle on recoil, if one does not hold them right..!

I would like to find a New Model 3 Target though in .455. Or, a 'DA' in .455...

So, wish me luck on those!!

I wish you good luck on finding a nice, good integrity 'DA' in .44 Russian, and at a good price you can be happy with!

[Oyeboteb]

Here is the grasp I elected for my .44 'DA's - it happens this is about the same grasp as famed Jelly Bryce used for his .44 Special, later on in time.although in the image below he has a Grip-adapter, and it may be a Registered magnum rather than his .44 Special....hard to tell from here...but, this is the grasp I like for saving my Knuckle!

It works nicely.

Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

[Tom K]

By coincidence I bought a .44 Russian DA at a local gun show yesterday. It's in nice condition, looks like original nickel finish with all matching numbers. The perfectly fitted grips appear original as well - the left panel has the letters KAL crudely scratched on the inside surface. I haven't opened up the side plate to look at the innards yet - it feels like the first "loading" notch may be broken off on the hammer.

I paid considerably less than applefish did. Glad you're getting your money back. I looked up the original GB listing for the gun and from the pictures, I would say the description was inaccurate and the starting bid wildly overpriced. Besides the mismatched parts, there is this: "Metal condition is very good with worn original blue and no rust. Grips are original Smith & Wesson and very good with no cracks or chips."

More like "no original blue and all rust". And of course the grips are not at all original to that gun. I'd say a fair price as a shooter would be more like $600. I will say that after looking at some of the completed auctions, these guns are going for a lot more that I would have expected.

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by Tom K

By coincidence I bought a .44 Russian DA at a local gun show yesterday. It's in nice condition, looks like original nickel finish with all matching numbers. The perfectly fitted grips appear original as well - the left panel has the letters KAL crudely scratched on the inside surface. I haven't opened up the side plate to look at the innards yet - it feels like the first "loading" notch may be broken off on the hammer.

I paid considerably less than applefish did. Glad you're getting your money back. I looked up the original GB listing for the gun and from the pictures, I would say the description was inaccurate and the starting bid wildly overpriced. Besides the mismatched parts, there is this: "Metal condition is very good with worn original blue and no rust. Grips are original Smith & Wesson and very good with no cracks or chips."

More like "no original blue and all rust". And of course the grips are not at all original to that gun. I'd say a fair price as a shooter would be more like $600. I will say that after looking at some of the completed auctions, these guns are going for a lot more that I would have expected.

What a nice find!

Beautiful!!

[applefish]

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

Post us the link to the expired auction?

I would like to see how the seller describes it, when they re-list it ( assuming they will re-list ).



No worries there, Lol...


I think I was the only one here who liked it, but I would not be a player for it - I have a few lovely ones as is, and I am satisfied.

Our "Official House Gun" here is a DA in .44 Russian...they are such fun old Revolvers, and great for barking Skin off one's middle finger knuckle on recoil, if one does not hold them right..!

I would like to find a New Model 3 Target though in .455. Or, a 'DA' in .455...

So, wish me luck on those!!

I wish you good luck on finding a nice, good integrity 'DA' in .44 Russian, and at a good price you can be happy with!

Haha thanks Oyeboteb I know you collectors have much higher standards and knowledge than I do for these revolvers!


I've found a couple others I wanted your inputs on. Not necessarily planning on buying these, but wanted to get an idea for how you collectors would judge these from the limited information provided by online pictures







Looks like it's been mucked with because the side plate is rounded, and the side plate screw hole is distorted. If it functions well it might work as a shooter, but my thoughts are that if the screw hole is messed with it might mean there are some hidden mechanical issues with it





This one looks decent, but there has been some aftermarket work done, since there are filled-in screw holes in the backstrap that someone might have once used to attach a stock.
Plus, googling the name engraved on the backstrap brings up this rock island auction listing from a October, which had it rated as "poor" and "mechanically inoperable".
https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...tion-revolvers
Thus, it probably was fixed up by whoever bought it from RIA, so at best it would be a low-value shooter gun.







This one looks great but will probably be out of my budget by the time the auction ends



What do you guys think?

Originally Posted by Tom K

By coincidence I bought a .44 Russian DA at a local gun show yesterday. It's in nice condition, looks like original nickel finish with all matching numbers. The perfectly fitted grips appear original as well - the left panel has the letters KAL crudely scratched on the inside surface. I haven't opened up the side plate to look at the innards yet - it feels like the first "loading" notch may be broken off on the hammer.

I paid considerably less than applefish did. Glad you're getting your money back. I looked up the original GB listing for the gun and from the pictures, I would say the description was inaccurate and the starting bid wildly overpriced. Besides the mismatched parts, there is this: "Metal condition is very good with worn original blue and no rust. Grips are original Smith & Wesson and very good with no cracks or chips."

More like "no original blue and all rust". And of course the grips are not at all original to that gun. I'd say a fair price as a shooter would be more like $600. I will say that after looking at some of the completed auctions, these guns are going for a lot more that I would have expected.

I've very jealous Tom I wish the gun shows near me weren't all shut down to the coronavirus!
How long did you have to look before you found yours?

[Tom K]

Originally Posted by applefish

Haha thanks Oyeboteb I know you collectors have much higher standards and knowledge than I do for these revolvers!

I've found a couple other on gunbroker I wanted your inputs on. Not necessarily planning on buying these, but wanted to get an idea for how you collectors would judge these from the limited information provided by online pictures.
.....

I've very jealous Tom I wish the gun shows near me weren't all shut down to the coronavirus!
How long did you have to look before you found yours?

Applefish, you will want to edit your post before it gets edited for you. Presumably you read The RULES when you joined the Forum but I will point this one out:

11. NO Links to current or upcoming auctions or promotion of current or upcoming auctions or discussion of current or upcoming auctions, even in vague and general terms, or GunsAmerica ads, Guns International ads, or other internet listing sites should be posted without permission.
Do NOT participate in discussion of current auctions or ads.
Links to CLOSED auctions and ads are permitted.
ADS selling or trading items on the public forum MUST be placed in the proper classified ad section.
Do NOT place ads in any other section of the public forum without prior permission.

It's a common mistake to ask advice about listings, but forbidden. Closed listings such as the Rock Island one are OK. FWIW, the description in the RI listing does not match the gun pictured, except for the addendum about the name on the backstrap.

Regarding the Model 3 DA that I posted, I simply stumbled on it at a gun show. I was not looking for one but I couldn't pass it up. I already have two, one a sad story and the other a happier story.

My first DA 44 I bought online in 2008. It was advertised as functional but had been refinished in nickel, which was flaking off. After operating it a bit, I found that the mainspring had been broken and brazed back together. Between that and the ugly finish I decided to get it worked on and refinished in blue and sent it to the best in the business at the time, David Chicoine. His policy at the time was to have any work paid for in full up front. I knew he was a busy man and in high demand - after a year I inquired about the gun and he said he was still working on it. After another year about the same answer.

Long story short, David had suffered a stroke and couldn't really work. His son David Jr. tried to carry on with the business but fell further and further behind. Eventually David Sr. passed and the family had a fire that pretty much wiped them out financially, so my pre-payment was long gone. After five years I finally got my gun back, partially assembled and the old nickel finish removed but nothing polished. It now sits in the same condition.

My second DA .44 was bought in 2014 at the gigantic Wanenmacher gun show in Tulsa. I saw it on a table, made a deal and took it home. It is blue with a 6" barrel, pretty much a twin to the nickel one I just bought except the front sight is slightly modified. Grips appear to be handmade replacements. As is often the case with these old guns, it shoots way high.





So, how long did I have to look before I found mine? Depending on how you look at it, no time at all or years and years!

I also have a couple of .44 Russian single actions. One is an original Model 3 that had been very nicely refinished in nickel (not by the factory) before I got it in 1993. The other is a Uberti replica of the Russian Model with the funky trigger guard hook, acquired at a local gun shop in 2012.

[mrcvs]

Unless you like paying full retail, and then some (!!!), avoid Gunbroker, Avoid Gunbroker, AVOID Gunbroker!

[first-model]

Originally Posted by mrcvs

Unless you like paying full retail, and then some (!!!), avoid Gunbroker, Avoid Gunbroker, AVOID Gunbroker!

I have to respectfully disagree here.

There are lots of bad deals to be had on GunBroker, just as there are lots of bad deals to be had in any channel of commerce for firearms. And it's true that there's an even larger risk when purchasing a firearm that one can't hold in one's hand and examined with one's own learned eye.

That said, I've scored lots of great deals on GunBroker. Like pawn shops and gun stores and gun shows and anywhere else that guns are bought and sold, one simply needs to be patient and watchful.

And here's a tip: look for auctions where things are misspelled. I once scored a fantastic GunBroker deal on a "Smith & Weson."

Mike

[Camster]

Glad that you paid with a credit card, as this guy sounds like the type to prolong the refund. Keep us posted.
I don't have much respect for sellers that won't state a critical piece of info, such as a mismatch...or rely on a disclaimer like: "The photos tell the story".
At least in this case, the photos do tell the story and for your benefit. Some sellers might claim that the buyer pulled a switcheroo on the parts, and tell you to get lost.

[Kinman]

I've had good luck with Gunbroker and Ebay as well. I have had a few issues with both and they were resolved to my satisfaction, truly it depends on how much your willing to pay for something you want. You have to be careful and stand up when your dealt a bad hand. I got a nasty response once from a guy that complained because I gave him 2 stars for how he handled the shipping. He told me that Ebay dings the seller when he gets anything but 5 stars. I told him that he should have shipped it a week sooner, waiting three weeks for something is ridiculous.
A friend of mine came up to me today and showed me three boxes of Remington (60) 6mmBR cases that didn't have primer holes. I asked him where he got them, he said Ebay. I told him to contact the seller and ask for his money back. I'd never heard of that before, sure that is an oddball cartridge but still....

[Tom K]

For what it's worth, these auctions have all ended now. I have added the links back in, along with the sale price.

Originally Posted by applefish

....
I've found a couple others I wanted your inputs on. Not necessarily planning on buying these, but wanted to get an idea for how you collectors would judge these from the limited information provided by online pictures.



SMITH & WESSON 44 DOUBLE ACTION 1ST MODEL .44 RUSSIAN 2012NT44174CN - Revolvers at GunBroker.com : 886142508
Sold for $1310.

Looks like it's been mucked with because the side plate is rounded, and the side plate screw hole is distorted. If it functions well it might work as a shooter, but my thoughts are that if the screw hole is messed with it might mean there are some hidden mechanical issues with it.





SMITH & WESSON 44 DOUBLE ACTION 1st MODEL, 44 RUSSIAN, NO FFL, ANTIQUE - Antique Guns at GunBroker.com : 885700690
Sold for $1576.

This one looks decent, but there has been some aftermarket work done, since there are filled-in screw holes in the backstrap that someone might have once used to attach a stock.
Plus, googling the name engraved on the backstrap brings up this rock island auction listing from a October, which had it rated as "poor" and "mechanically inoperable".
https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...tion-revolvers
Thus, it probably was fixed up by whoever bought it from RIA, so at best it would be a low-value shooter gun.

[The description on the Rock Island auction does not appear to match the gun, other than the addendum describing the name on the backstrap.]




OLD WEST ANTIQUE S&W .44 RUSSIAN DOUBLE ACTION LARGE FRAME REVOLVER 1ST MOD - Revolvers at GunBroker.com : 885755590
Sold for $2025.

This one looks great but will probably be out of my budget by the time the auction ends