Model 3 Russian model

[Helipat13]

Hi all

I'm from France - Provence , just buy a fine revolver S&W 44 russian model military serial number 48840 + [1874].

May a found some information about in the Standard Swith & Wesson book ?

Thank's a lot
Patrick

[Wiregrassguy]

Bienvenue sur les forums du Wiregrass! That is a beautiful example, Patrick! Does it have an 1874 inside a diamond on the butt? It's a Third Model Russian and if the stampings are all in English it is a commercial version, not military.

Guy

[Helipat13]

Thanks you reply
No diamond , just serial 48840 and 1874 inside a rectangle on the butt .
Marking on Barell is on english ''SW patent bla bla russian model''
I will taking pictures later .
Patrick

[Wiregrassguy]

Yes that would be a commercial 3rd model Russian.

Guy

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by Helipat13

Thanks you reply
No diamond , just serial 48840 and 1874 inside a rectangle on the butt .
Marking on Barell is on english ''SW patent bla bla russian model''
I will taking pictures later .
Patrick

Please take some nice pictures for us, outside, using indirect natural sunlight?

Do you load for and shoot the old Guns?

[Helipat13]

Dears

Yes , i shoot with my old guns .
I reload with Swiss black powder and pure lead bullet .
Target 25 meters .

Soon i'm back home , i will take for you picture with natural light . [ one week ]

I 'm looking for the manufacture date ?

S/N 48840.

Thank you
Patrick

[Wiregrassguy]

Patrick, the top serial number for the third model was 53500. The guns were made from 1874 to 1878. I estimate your gun was made in 1877. But that's a guess.

Guy

[Helipat13]

Thanks a lot Guy

[Kinman]

Beautiful example...

[iby]

I really like the blue finish

[Peak53]

Is that finish original? If so, holy moly! If not, simply amazing! I have one that got packed around horseback in Texas for 25 years and it does not look like that. Yes, pictures, please.

[Oldmanwesson]

I have SN 48982, same 1874 in a rectangle. According to Roy Jinks, mine was shipped from the factory on 13 April 1877, to M.W. Robinson of New York City - S&W's single largest distributor. It is in its original nickel finish, with the original walnut grips.. The assembly number on the cylinder also appears on the inside of the frame. Sounds like yours was made pretty well at the same time?

[Helipat13]

Dears
Some pictures from the seller
Look like never shoot ...

[Helipat13]

Some more images

[Helipat13]

and the last ...

Hopefully ,next photos will be taken in my home .

Have a good day
Patrick

[Helipat13]

I forget barrel adress and assembly number .IMG_9447.JPG

IMG_9450.JPG

[Helipat13]

I forget barrel adress and assembly number .Attachment 482171

Attachment 482172

Hopefully this gun will be in my hands next week

Your advices are welcome.
Have a safe day .
Patrick

[Wiregrassguy]

Breathtaking!

[raljr1]

Looks like someone forgot they owned that for 140 years.....My word, that may be the nicest one I've ever seen in pictures that isn't in a museum.

[mrcvs]

That is one amazing revolver (MAYBE??? See "EDIT", below...). If the finish is original, which it appears to be, you have one of the best ones out there!

However, one thing to check is for a date stamp on the frame under the stocks. If it is present, it indicates a factory refinish. For example, if you see "12.29", it means it was back to Smith & Wesson in Dec 1929 for some sort of work, such as a refinish. However, no matter which way you cut it, you own one stunning example!

Did you find it in France?

EDIT: I'm confused. Original photograph appeared to show a pristine blued gun. Other photographs depict a not so pristine nickel gun. All final verdicts and hypotheses withdrawn until that matter is resolved.

[Wiregrassguy]

The NaturaBuy website is in France.

[Helipat13]

Hi

Yes i found in France . Close to Cannes .

I never see a antique gun like this .
Soon a have in my hand i will tell you more .

Naturabuy is French web site , But there is a lot of rubbish.

Sometime collectors put an ad.
COLLECTION PIECE UNIQUE, COLT 38 AN 1900 AVEC LETTRE ARCHIVES COLT . - Revolvers (7266059)

[Kinman]

Truly museum quality from everything I can see, I would find myself struggling over whether to fire that one. I've seen firearms in less condition given the white glove treatment. You have yourself a truly fine firearm, congratulations.

[Oldmanwesson]

I agree. Stunning, no matter if it's original or factory restored. I would also be hesitant to fire it - it's like owning the Mona Lisa and hanging her up in your bathroom...

[Helipat13]

Hello
Today was a good ....I got THE gun .
I could not belive this age 143yars old .
Mint condition , God bless me .
Tonight i can't resist to cheering some pictures .

[Helipat13]

next ...
Will be with naturel light

[lestert357]

Do original finish Model 3 Russians have purple cylinders and such prominent side plate seams?

[Helipat13]

Photo from rock island auction
le barillet a une couleur similaire

[mrcvs]

Yes, sideplate seam is way too prominent.

I think, unfortunately, your revolver has been reblued. A high quality reblue, but a reblue nonetheless.

How much are you into this one for?

[Kinman]

Originally Posted by lestert357

Do original finish Model 3 Russians have purple cylinders and such prominent side plate seams?

Although not a 3rd Model Russian, this is a factory refinish example.

[crossv]

This First Model Russian is a little older and nickle, but this is what an
original sideplate should look like. Still a nice 3rd Model Russian.

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by mrcvs

Yes, sideplate seam is way too prominent.

I think, unfortunately, your revolver has been reblued. A high quality reblue, but a re blue nonetheless.

How much are you into this one for?

Difficult to be 100% accurate evaluation of condition with just some pictures, however, if dated, it was back to S&W (was that 1922) for service work and likely a refinish but more likely than not it had another refinish performed to it some time after. I'd guesstimate, sometime in the past 30 years.

The latter refinish seems to be a decent refinish but not likely another S&W refinish.

Metal prep and prominent outline of side plate (plate edges seem rounded), and black upper facing posts and front barrel end make me further think I am correct. S&W factory repairmen do not round off side plate outline.

On a perfectly restored, or original finish, Model 3, the side plate outline is nearly invisible and plate perfectly flush all the way around.

You'll find out soon enough when you get it, in hand.

I'm hoping the best for you, however, seems the chances of that gun now wearing a factory S&W refinish is just about moot.

all the best, Sal Raimondi, Sr.

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by Kinman

Although not a 3rd Model Russian, this is a factory refinish example.

This is a refinish example, but not a Factory Refinish example.

[Helipat13]

Thanks for your comments.

Since the beginning i smelling something wrong .
To nice to be true .
I already clean the revolver and inside barrel was very very dirty .

I gess your are right ''Has been reblue ''

the mechanical work and play are superbe , no gap ,no play , Very thight
The job was weel done .

I purchased this revolver for shooting ''Black powder only .2 times Italian replica price.

The rifling are good , sharp and shining only 3 pitting spot are present .
After 300 round i will see if the reblue is good .

Thank you very for your comments

Next step are fire shooting , but we are still confined ( shooting range are closed)

[mrcvs]

Well, there's your answer, obvious from the start, even before you had the gun in hand.

If the revolver "appears" to be nearly 100% after well over a century and a dealer has it for sale at only twice the price of a reproduction, the dealer is either very ignorant, which is possible, although unlikely, or he is well aware that it is a reproduction.

"If it's too good to be true, it usually is!"

[Helipat13]

Thank you very much for your advice .

It remains a beautifull revolver ... Ready for shooting

Next ,i will post more picture in action. Just for fun

Great pleasure to exchange with you .

Patrick

[Kinman]

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

This is a refinish example, but not a Factory Refinish example.

Experts abound, this is about the best I can do besides including a copy of the letter.

[iby]

is this a Richard Crossier gun?

[Wiregrassguy]

The stamps indicate a standard blue refinish at the factory in July 1956.

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

The stamps indicate a standard blue refinish at the factory in July 1956.

I'm sorry!

I had thought the Trigger Guards were meant to be case color, like the Hammer...

[Helipat13]

Dears

First time i see my revolver on naturel day light .

Honestly i do not understand why this gun has been reblue . ( IF has been reblue ) Threse is no defect visible on the steel . ( under the blue coat )

Please ,expert , give me your feeling .
Feel free for any comments , i need advice from US specialist

Thanks a lot
Patrick

[mrcvs]

If you have looked at enough of these, you get a sense as to what the normal hue of the bluing is from that era. Yours is distinctly more. Purple than it should be.

Also, the seam between the sideplate and the frame is much too distinct on yours. This is from buffing the frame and sideplate independently and causing softening to the edges. It should be nearly invisible.

Whomever did the refinish did a good job, and did not blue areas that originally were not blued and did not overbuff most components. But, still reblued, nonetheless.

[Helipat13]

Thank you Sir

[Kinman]

Originally Posted by iby

is this a Richard Crossier gun?

Yes, His pictures are amazing I downloaded them knowing I would never get that good a quality on my own.

[Helipat13]

Hi
Today shooting 25 meters : Starline 44 russian .429 200GR with 15 GR Swiss 1 ( BP 4fg)
Enjoy ... Shoot hight , strong trigger .
Aiming at the bottom target
Aiming gun is not done for 25 meters .

Next time will try 50 meter , lighter and heavy bullet with more black powder

Patrick

[BMur]

That's a great pattern for 25 meters! Some folks have posted much worse target results at 10 & 15 meters!

I recommend you put a round red dot at the bullseye location to tighten your pattern even more.

Good shooting!

**** Just a word of warning? FFFFG ( 4fg) is probably a little bit too stout for this large a caliber pistol. Especially in Swiss. Be careful. Probably why your pattern is so tight....That's some hot loads! Probably why your 200 grain bullet is shooting high at 25 yards from a heavy frame 44? Those loads are "HOT"!

Original loading data from the 1880's lists FFG(2f) with a compressed load or FFFG(3f) with a standard case filled with powder. NO references that I have recommends FFFFG(4f). IN fact they warn against using it. That powder is a very fast burner and used for pan powder to ignite the main charge only.



Murph

[Helipat13]

Thank a lot for your advice .
I will try with different granulometry.
I have all Swiss black powder .
Good evenight
Patrick

[Kinman]

Frankly I am surprised everything held together with that much 4F. I never keep a can of 4F anywhere near anything that I am shooting because of its extra volatility. I remember one of our muzzle loaders talking about using a load of 4F in his .45 percussion rifle. He said it was real quick and even had the added advantage of re-cocking his hammer for him...we all laughed at his joke, but he wasn't joking. He wondered what we all thought was so funny and we explained how the over pressure load was truly blowing the hammer off the cap with such force that it was re-cocking the piece. He was lucky it didn't fly off.
In our muzzle loading crowd we have an award given to someone that forgets to put powder down before seating a ball (dry ball). There are two methods to get the ball out, one is to put a ball puller on a ramrod, drop it down and screw it into the ball, then pulling it out with a friend or we have installed a bracket onto a roof truss that allows one to do it alone. The other method is to either remove the nipple, some bolsters have a "clean-out" screw which can be removed allowing a clear shot into the breech. After removal of whatever you have you then pour a small amount of 4F into the hole and poke or lightly tap the rifle to get as much as possible hopefully behind the ball or into the pathway from nipple to breech, reinstall whatever you removed to allow access, install a cap, aim down range and fire...with just that small amount of 4F that ball usually travels 50 meters or more.

[Kinman]

Refinish or otherwise that is a splendid example. You can usually see a difference in all of the gaps, even at the latch area, although very fine the gaps are off by a mere millimeter or less, a hair's breadth is enough of a difference, especially at the sideplate.

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by Helipat13

Thank a lot for your advice .
I will try with different granulometry.
I have all Swiss black powder .
Good evenight
Patrick

Did you have an air space in the Cartridge with 15 Grains of 4F?

I hope not! and in case you may not know, an air space is never to be present in any Black Powder Load.

As Murph mentions, we best use 3 F in this Cartridge, which is what it was designed to have, and always, we need to have no Air space at all, between Powder and Bullet.

Standard Loading for .44 Russian is 23 Grains 3 F.

If you are using new modern Brass, you will have to compress heavily if wishing to use 23 Grains.

Or, you can reduce the charge empirically so that you use how-ever many Grains of 3 F as will compress about 3 mm or so, for the Bullet to be seated and crimped to it's normal seating depth.

If you want Powder Charges lower than that, you can add some fine dry Corn Meal or Malto Meal between Powder and Bullet, so it gives you the same compression and seating depth for the Bullet to crimp where it is meant to crimp.