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Old 12-08-2020, 01:43 PM
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Default Baby Russian Gauge

For those of you with a tool and die / machinists background ... curious to get your thoughts on this gauge.



This is a barrel forging pass/fail gauge for a Baby Russian. It finally occurred to me that I should measure the cutouts, and you can see the measurements in the photo above.

It's pretty clear that they were working up in increments of two hundredths of an inch. What I'm scratching my head on is what this might have actually been used for. Since it's for "barrel forging," I'm wondering if this would have been used to measure the raw forgings before they were finished? And if so, why it would have been critical to have them to within a few hundredths of an inch of one another. Or, would this have been used when the raw forgings were being filed down?

Mike
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Old 12-08-2020, 01:58 PM
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I'll guess the Barrels were drop forged, and if so, they would not tend to wander in their sections...so, I would have to think this gauge would be for succeeding steps in Machining.

But why the various width cut outs would not me marked as for what they measure, is puzzling to me.

Amazing that it had survived!!
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Old 12-08-2020, 02:26 PM
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But why the various width cut outs would not me marked as for what they measure, is puzzling to me.
I looked very closely and I don't see any markings on either side, other than the markings you can see in the photo.

That's part of why I decided to measure it ... wasn't sure if that would help us understand how it might have been used.

Mike
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Old 12-08-2020, 02:50 PM
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Default Machine plate

Very neat find!
My impression of the metal plate is that it is some sort of Alignment or cooling plate that was mounted on an early industrial machine/tooling for a basic guide. It’s too rough to be an accuracy measuring tool. The two holes are likely mounting bosses and the square cut outs are rough mechanical guides or for cooling of hot metal. Notice one hole is perfectly bored with zero wear and the other hole is tapered like a screw was applied?
So my guess is it was mounted. Notice also that the surface has a lot of impact scratches.
If we could see the other side of the plate? That would help.
Murph

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Old 12-08-2020, 04:06 PM
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Notice one hole is perfectly bored with zero wear and the other hole is tapered like a screw was applied?
So my guess is it was mounted. Notice also that the surface has a lot of impact scratches.
You're right that one hole is chamfered and the other isn't. Interestingly, the chamfered hole has a *lot* of dirt and gunk in it. That said, neither hole shows any evidence of a screw or bolt having passed through it with any regularity; I don't see any of the usual circular wear marks that I would expect on either side. My first guess was that the tool was hung via one or both of these holes, for storage.

I'm also guessing from the wear on the large flat that this was a handheld tool. If I hold it in my hand, my finger and thumb align pretty closely with the wear marks.

The four square notches are all pretty well cut. The width is very consistent across the depth of the cut.

Still a mystery, though.

Mike
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Old 12-08-2020, 05:27 PM
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S&W apparently sold all their old obsolete gauges, jigs and related tooling to scrap dealers when they moved out to the present plant location after WW2. I was at a gun show in Los Angeles, circa 1960s era, and a dealer had a GI Footlocker full of these 100s of these items for various S&Ws - American Models, thru the 1940 light rifles. I bought the whole foot locker for $5 ( before I found out how much it weighed ! ) For yrs thereafter whenever I sold a S&W I would throw in a jig or gauge for that model. Finally at one of our early annual meetings a member named "Art," who lived in Maine, bought all I had left. He is now deceased and that's what he collected - jigs, gauges, tools, etc. from S&W. Roy may know what happened to his collection. Ed
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Old 12-08-2020, 05:39 PM
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Interesting, Ed. I bought this particular gauge from Roy. Not sure how he got it ... I imagined that it was in the Stockbridge factory when he emptied it out, but I never asked.

Mike
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Old 12-08-2020, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by first-model View Post
For those of you with a tool and die / machinists background ... curious to get your thoughts on this gauge.



This is a barrel forging pass/fail gauge for a Baby Russian. It finally occurred to me that I should measure the cutouts, and you can see the measurements in the photo above.

It's pretty clear that they were working up in increments of two hundredths of an inch. What I'm scratching my head on is what this might have actually been used for. Since it's for "barrel forging," I'm wondering if this would have been used to measure the raw forgings before they were finished? And if so, why it would have been critical to have them to within a few hundredths of an inch of one another. Or, would this have been used when the raw forgings were being filed down?

Mike
Could it be one side for breach the other for muzzle? ?? To check for taper
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Old 12-08-2020, 07:01 PM
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Could it be one side for breach the other for muzzle? ?? To check for taper
Interesting idea. Hadn't thought of that.

Without knowing what the raw barrel forgings looked like, we may never know for sure. But I hadn't thought of the taper ... that's as good an idea as any I've heard.

Mike
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Old 12-08-2020, 07:48 PM
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I'll throw out the idea that this gauge is for machine setup. The round corners are kind on the hands. The square corners and flat edge are for the machine alignment and each 'square' cut out is a different height (length) from the square cornered flat edge. Forgings are often done in increments with the last 'drop' being the cutting or removal of the flash metal.
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Old 12-08-2020, 07:52 PM
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I'll throw out the idea that this gauge is for machine setup. The round corners are kind on the hands. The square corners and flat edge are for the machine alignment and each 'square' cut out is a different height (length) from the square cornered flat edge. Forgings are often done in increments with the last 'drop' being the cutting or removal of the flash metal.
Mike, I had a feeling you'd have some great explanation for how this tool might have been used. I think this wins the guessing game so far.

Mike
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Old 12-08-2020, 11:04 PM
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Curiosity: Have you measured the height differences of the six 'square' cut-outs from the flat/square corner end? A hammer-forge can only fall and forge a given distance when forging a part even if the blank is red-hot. It takes multiple blows. Your dimensions that are given in your original post seem too big for a barrel that would be finished to the specs as everything mic's out under .500" on a production Baby Russian. This disparity between your gauge and a finished piece is, in my opinion, too much waste to machine away. I love a mystery.
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Old 12-09-2020, 03:08 AM
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S&W had the only drop forge in the Conn. River Valley gun making community during this period in time and when they were not using it for S&W production, the leased it out to other gun makers.. Marlin DA & SA revolver frames were forged on S&W's forge, for example. Ed
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Old 12-09-2020, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaher94087 View Post
Curiosity: Have you measured the height differences of the six 'square' cut-outs from the flat/square corner end? A hammer-forge can only fall and forge a given distance when forging a part even if the blank is red-hot. It takes multiple blows. Your dimensions that are given in your original post seem too big for a barrel that would be finished to the specs as everything mic's out under .500" on a production Baby Russian. This disparity between your gauge and a finished piece is, in my opinion, too much waste to machine away. I love a mystery.
Mike, here are a more complete set of measurements. A few differ slightly from the measurements yesterday; probably a function of my not being formally trained in the art of measuring these things.

It's a curious set of dimensions that still has me scratching my head.

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Old 12-09-2020, 12:26 PM
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Other than I can't count (there are four notches not six), I find the measurements interesting as they run .499, .5115, .5175 and .530. If these are reversed, they might represent the crush distance of the dies used to forge the barrels. Other ideas?
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Old 12-09-2020, 12:32 PM
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Other than I can't count (there are four notches not six), I find the measurements interesting as they run .499, .5115, .5175 and .530. If these are reversed, they might represent the crush distance of the dies used to forge the barrels. Other ideas?
Mike, it's interesting to me that the widths and the depths get progressively larger by pretty predictable increments. A little too predictable to be accidental.

I imagine that someone working a piece of metal in such a forge would need to be able to gauge the work piece in at least two dimensions, so perhaps it makes sense that the gauge was accurately cut in both dimensions.

Mike
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Old 12-09-2020, 01:37 PM
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It does have the appearance of a Go No-Go gauge but a barrel forging would need to be room temperature to be useful. I'm still leaning towards a machine set up tool like a mill to rough out the barrel forging. Did Roy have any ideas?
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Old 12-09-2020, 01:48 PM
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It does have the appearance of a Go No-Go gauge but a barrel forging would need to be room temperature to be useful. I'm still leaning towards a machine set up tool like a mill to rough out the barrel forging. Did Roy have any ideas?
We only talked about it briefly when I bought it from him, and he didn't know much more about it than I did. I thought about asking him to letter it for me, but I don't know that there's going to be anything more to put in a letter about it, other than the provenance (which would probably be worth it).

mike
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Old 12-09-2020, 02:16 PM
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Default Period photo's

I thought a few period belt driven photo's might help us think this through? I'm also going to look through my other photo's later tonight and see if there might be any clues?

Murph

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Old 12-09-2020, 02:48 PM
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Default Period drawings

These are actual drawings from circa 1880 of the Smith and Wesson factory manufacturing pistols from an article in Scientific American weekly issue.

Murph

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Old 12-09-2020, 03:46 PM
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Default Inspection Guages circa 1876

This might help. Original Colt factory inspection guages for the Colt Lightning circa 1876. Also a private collection of hand held inspection guages for the 78 Frontier. I know they aren’t Smith & Wesson tools but an interesting comparison and extremely RARE!!

Murph
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File Type: jpg F7D8F22A-8729-41E4-ACE9-370255DB0C2D.jpg (75.9 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg 3EFFF481-6892-46B0-844E-5D4B25B44932.jpg (119.5 KB, 41 views)

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Old 12-09-2020, 04:26 PM
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It looks like "comb gauges" are (or were) a thing:

Comb gauges to measure the hot stuff - Tools, general discussion - I Forge Iron

Looks to me like that's what we have here.

Mike
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Old 12-09-2020, 08:05 PM
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It looks like "comb gauges" are (or were) a thing:

Comb gauges to measure the hot stuff - Tools, general discussion - I Forge Iron

Looks to me like that's what we have here.

Mike
Would the back hole be for a locking lug and the front hole to secure it on a handle?
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Old 12-09-2020, 08:07 PM
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Mike, I agree. "There is always the shrink gauge issue, Hot metal is larger than the same piece cold. In foundry work they made scales that were offset so that when you made the positive for the mold the piece cast would be the correct size when it cooled." Although there is a reference to "cast" the same applies to forgings. I'm still a little curious as the finished barrel seems to be way undersized compared to this gauge which, to me, seems like a whole bunch of machining. Of course, 100 years of refining the process might be the difference.
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Old 12-09-2020, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
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I thought a few period belt driven photo's might help us think this through? I'm also going to look through my other photo's later tonight and see if there might be any clues?

Murph
That shop looks near identical to an old friend mine's. It had started out as a blacksmith shop, then turned into a machine shop and was originally powered by a steam engine converted to electricity. It was still fully operational when I saw it and was mesmerizing. He showed me how to slip the belt onto the idler shaft to "turn a machine on." The piece that fascinated me the most was the hammer forge or trip hammer I think he called it., not that the others weren't neat but the operation and ability of the hammer forge to move metal was amazing. He had picked up the shop when he purchased a couple of city blocks in a small burg just North of town, he started a wrecking yard/machine shop and was a friend to us kids and hotrodders alike. He helped me sleeve the cylinder on an 8BA Flathead block I found, the old man forgot more stuff than I'll ever learn.
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Old 12-09-2020, 08:20 PM
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Would the back hole be for a locking lug and the front hole to secure it on a handle?
Possibly. Oddly, the "back" hole (furthest from the cuts) is perfectly smooth on the inside, while the "front" hole has a lot of crud in it. I have deliberately left the crud there because I think it gives a hint about how it was used.

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Mike, I agree. "There is always the shrink gauge issue, Hot metal is larger than the same piece cold. In foundry work they made scales that were offset so that when you made the positive for the mold the piece cast would be the correct size when it cooled." Although there is a reference to "cast" the same applies to forgings. I'm still a little curious as the finished barrel seems to be way undersized compared to this gauge which, to me, seems like a whole bunch of machining. Of course, 100 years of refining the process might be the difference.
Mike, I have no sense for how much material was removed once the raw forgings were complete. I measured my barrel at the back (next to the barrel catch) and it is 0.562" wide. If this gauge was used to measure the width of the raw forging, then they would have had to file at least 0.03" worth of metal from the sides to get the barrel to the correct width.

I guess, on reflection, that's not a huge amount of metal to remove with a hand file. And I'm sure that for those guys, filing a straight edge was as natural as riding a bicycle.

Here's a theory: as the metal was being hammered, this gauge would have given four known widths -- from "too big; keep hammering" -- 0.6535" to "stop hammering!" -- 0.5935". I suspect the man working the forge would have had a pretty good sense for how much each blow of the hammer would thin the metal. So, using this gauge, he could measure down the length of the work piece and hammer accordingly.

(of course, the closest I've come to using a hammer forge is tenderizing a steak ... so this could all be bunk)

Mike
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Old 12-09-2020, 09:19 PM
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Default Belt driven

Kinman,

I know what you mean. They have a fully functioning Railroad Steam locomotive Service yard in Jamestown. It’s completely belt driven. Talk about dangerous equipment! The noise those belts make and all the overhead shafts, pulleys, and sloppy bearings When operating is what is Alarming to me. The shop lead machinist told me they used a child to grease the overhead bearings back in the 1880’s? The original grease monkey I guess?
No such thing as PPE back then!

Murph
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Old 12-09-2020, 09:38 PM
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Murph,

I know what you mean, on the job injury meant no pay...if a guy was hurt bad enough to not be able to carry his load he was let go, no consequences to management, they owned the town.
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Old 12-10-2020, 08:51 AM
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Kinman,

I know what you mean. They have a fully functioning Railroad Steam locomotive Service yard in Jamestown. It’s completely belt driven. Talk about dangerous equipment! The noise those belts make and all the overhead shafts, pulleys, and sloppy bearings When operating is what is Alarming to me. The shop lead machinist told me they used a child to grease the overhead bearings back in the 1880’s? The original grease monkey I guess?
No such thing as PPE back then!

Murph
The "Good Old Days" when a hard drinking man could hire a 12 year old to work 12 hours a day, toss an injured worker to the side, beat his wife and kids, frequent the soiled doves and still be considered ' A Pillar of the Community"

I know an Amish guy who still runs his whole wood shop using an over head shaft with the big belts with a gas motor for power. Yes, a gas motor. It isn't a vehicle.

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Old 12-10-2020, 11:38 AM
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These are actual drawings from circa 1880 of the Smith and Wesson factory manufacturing pistols from an article in Scientific American weekly issue.
Some years back I managed to find an original copy of this Scientific American. They are great engravings, but I've learned to take them with a grain of salt. I'm not sure that the actual shops were quite that orderly and neat looking. I think, even then, there was a tendency to romanticize the "good old days."

That said, it's obvious that the overhead line shafts were not designed for safety. One has to wonder how many serious injuries were inflicted by that.

Mike
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Old 12-10-2020, 12:09 PM
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Over 20 years ago, I was a road service forklift mechanic, went on a call down in the Tuscola/Arcola IL area. On the way up the long driveway to the farm, I was amazed to see them baling hay with a John Deere baler pulled by a 4 horse side by side by side team. Power for the baler was a Wisconsin V4 engine mounted on top of the baler( no PTO on the horses to hook drive shaft to). They also made window frames in one barn. The only power there was a large gas powered compressor to use air nailers. They did have a forklift. Can't mount a mast and forks on a critter.
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Old 12-10-2020, 12:26 PM
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i do not think anyone ever used Hand Gauges for checking tolerances of Drop Forgings...Hand Forgings for production work, yes.

Drop forgings, the Dies establish the entire profile, the sections, etc, there is nothing to check on.

Nothing was being hand forged on these Revolvers and no one was hand Filing Barrels to shape.

Everything was machined.

Hand fitting of some some small parts was likely done....if more likely was simply sectional Trays having minute + or - sizes to elect from when doing final assembly.

Just a glance to a "Baby Russian" ought to be enough to realize this was not made by some guy leaning over an Anvil, with a big File in waiting, for the next steps of final shaping to spec, this was all "Machine Shop" work and high tolerance.

None of the S & Ws in the last fifty years or more are even close to the fine tolerances and high quality of machining S & W had going in the 1870s 1880s, 1890s, etc...nothing made today by anyone anywhere is Revolver wise.
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Old 12-10-2020, 01:18 PM
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Default Lost Tallent

Here I go again agreeing with Phil,

It's true though. On the one hand we think that back in the 1880's life was brutal and safety was zero. However, I can remember doing some pretty dangerous work in Power plants of the late 70's. Right before I retired it was pathetic. The work force was a bunch of computer nerds that would literally shut down when the on board computer went off line. I would show up at a job site and 30 people would be standing around drinking coffee and shooting the breeze with high PSI gas blowing. I couldn't believe it. "Get your pens out, write the information down and "GET TO WORK" says I.. Plus every time a situation became the slightest bit risky? They would claim "SAFETY". I mean it was honestly pathetic. There is an honest skill that you develop when you walk close to the line. You know when it's too dangerous and when you can get away with it.

The 12 year old grease monkey that lubricated those bearings in the overhead back while the shafts were still spinning in the 1880's had talent. Power plant work was just as dangerous in the 1970's. We were called oilers then.

So, this guage that the OP presented represents a time when people actually worked for a living and had talent. I think that's the honest attraction to these antiques. "A lost skill" that no longer exists. Today work ethics don't exist. They are all a bunch of lawyers that know the States safety guidelines to the letter. I can't do that I might get a boo boo.

Murph
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Old 12-10-2020, 01:50 PM
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Tell us how you really feel. LOL



I do agree on some of your points. Knew some real safety "experts" who could quote the safety regs and bring any job to a crawl. Common sense? Are you kidding me?
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Old 12-10-2020, 04:15 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
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Murph, one of the things I researched extensively when I wrote my thesis was an ammunition factory explosion in the 1860's. It's remarkable how many of the people in that factory were children, including one boy of 13 that perished from the horrible burns he received that day. When I visited the Springfield Cemetery a few years ago, I made a point of visiting his grave (where his 19 year old brother is also buried—burned in the same accident). It moved me to tears to imagine these parents burying two of their three children—and all so that ammunition could be made a bit cheaper and faster.

This romance that we concoct about the "good old days" is pure rubbish. Children weren't employed because it would teach them a hearty work ethic; they were employed because they were cheap and expendable, and because they hadn't yet developed the agency to say "no" to these absurdly dangerous situations. Ditto for the many women that were similarly employed. And if they developed "talent," it wasn't because they wanted to become masters of their trade. it's because they wanted to stay alive.

These were brutal times—as steel saver correctly noted—when brutish drunks could be unapologetic in their manifold abuses. I would only add to this that people didn't need to be drunks to be craven.

You've expressed an interest before in the Baltimore railroad strikes of 1877, and the Baltimore Police Department's use of Baby Russians. Do you have any idea why these people were striking in the first place?

I grew up on a farm. Every year people would remove the PTO shields from their tractor because they made attaching and detaching a PTO shaft a bit more of a hassle. And every year, someone would get killed or horribly mangled by a spinning PTO shaft—on a tractor whose shield had been removed, of course.

Yes, the workmen in the early gun factories produced some remarkable guns with comparatively crude tools and tremendous talent, and there's lots of intrigue and ingenuity to explore there. But let's not ignore the horrible working conditions and the near non-existence of safety protections (not to mention a similar lack of laws that protect workers). An honest assessment of this history means taking the good with the bad; anything less is bad historical fiction.

And if your honest reaction to safety is to roll your eyes, then I'd wager that it's you that shouldn't be out in the field. Unless, of course, you're willing to give up one of your own limbs to make your point. And I'll bet dollars to donuts that if that happened, you'd be the first person rounding a personal injury attorney to collect your pot of gold.

Mike
High quality results in Machine Shop Manufacturing of complex close-tolerance mechanical devices, do not occur for very long or will not occur at all, in bad working conditions.

The two are incompatible.

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Old 12-10-2020, 05:29 PM
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I am having trouble seeing how any of this has anything at all to do with working conditions which attended manufacture of the 'Baby Russian" ...
You're right, and I deleted my original response. I have to breathe deeply and remember to not engage with certain people.

Mike
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Old 12-10-2020, 06:40 PM
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Default Thanks Phil

Probably would have been better not to repost that one Phil.

Checking out.

Murph
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Old 12-10-2020, 11:16 PM
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My guess is the gauge is for the blank, called a "multiple", that will be forged into a barrel. If it is too small, it won't fill the die properly. If it is too large, you have to hit it more times, wasting time and shortening die life.
That is a quick try gauge. The multiple should go in the large slot, but should not go in the smallest. I have no idea why we have the two intermediate slots. Maybe they are "ideal".
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Old 12-11-2020, 09:16 AM
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Lee, is the blank (multiple) in this case just a rectangular "bar" that needs to have a proper width and height? So this would be a go/no go for those two dimensions?

CB
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Old 12-11-2020, 12:17 PM
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I have no idea if the multiple was round or square. The dimensions are not critical. They just want to be close.
Here is a pretty good overview of drop forging-
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Old 12-11-2020, 05:20 PM
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Love the Studebaker.

The big hammers always impressed me. The big hydraulics are amazing to check out some of the hammers and presses in this video. Some of the forging have to quite a few tons

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Old 12-13-2020, 06:44 PM
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So...has anyone a 'Baby Russian' in-the-Sock-Drawer they can grab and do some simple measurements on with a Vernier Dial Caliper? To see if anything co-responds to the figures of the Gauge openings?

I certainly am not able to understand this Gauge, nor to envision it in any kind of use...the lack short text references for what the openings are for, and the kind of openings they are ( rectangular, instead of having a narrower mouth, and having four all too similar openings, ) seems to me to make this Gauge impractical for anything I can think of.

Even if I make a 'Go-No-Go' Gauge only for me, it'd be made same as they would have made one in 1870, it'd have one or at most two openings, each clearly stamped as for what they measure...and I am the only one here! Lol...

So...the Gauge in question does not make practical sense to me...for any kind of 'check' or "go" or measuring activity.
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Old 12-13-2020, 08:51 PM
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I had the same issue as Oyetoteb. I couldn't find any measurement that made sense with the gauge. That's why I feel that the gauge was used to set up a machine for the machining of the barrel forging; not the actual forging process.
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Old 12-13-2020, 08:57 PM
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I had the same issue as Oyetoteb. I couldn't find any measurement that made sense with the gauge. That's why I feel that the gauge was used to set up a machine for the machining of the barrel forging; not the actual forging process.
Ditto. I had Baby Russian in one hand and gauge in the other, and I couldn't find a single dimension that came close to the gauge.

Mike
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Old 12-13-2020, 10:25 PM
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I had the same issue as Oyetoteb. I couldn't find any measurement that made sense with the gauge. That's why I feel that the gauge was used to set up a machine for the machining of the barrel forging; not the actual forging process.
I am quite sure, that machining of the Barrel and Frame Hinge Rule Joint element, was likely at a sequence of eighteen or twenty different 'dedicated' Machine Stations, each doing their specific Machining of one aspect...who's individual Machine set up ( as say when changing Cutters ) would be Gauged using Conventional "In House" made Tolerance Gauges on the Part itself, or on a test Part, not by using a Gauge for anything on the Machine.

There would not have been anything on any of the Machines to Gauge, nor to Gauge with an "outside" fit Gauge as this one is.

Cutters either move in to the Work, or, the Work ( clamped in a Jig bolted to a moving Table, ) moves in to the Cutter, or, the Cutter moves across the Work, or, the Work ( clamped in a Jig Bolted to a moving Table, ) moves past the Cutter.

There is nothing to measure or Gauge with these Machines when changing Cutters, other than, the Go/No-Go, of the next Part they machine, and the "dedicated" specific Gauges would never be vague or ambiguous as to "what for".

Far as I can imagine, anyway..!

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Old 12-14-2020, 12:29 AM
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The gauge says "barrel forging" on it, so my gut tells me that this gauge had nothing to do with the subsequent machining operations that turned the forged slug into a finished barrel.

From what I've been able to learn from various YouTube videos and internet discussions (which is admittedly a country mile from any sort of education on this topic), the hammer forge that was used wasn't forging the barrel slug in a single drop of the hammer, but was rather the mechanical version of a "dumb" hammer that would repeatedly go up and down under some motive power (probably the factory's steam engine). It would have taken many blows of the hammer to form the red-hot slug into the "finished" forging, which would then move on to the various machining and finishing operations. It would have been up to the person working the hammer forge (and holding the work piece in some sort of tongs?) to determine when the work piece had been hammered into the correct dimensions.

In looking at the gun, it also occurred to me that the raw forging for the barrel was probably an oddly shaped thing, since there would need to be more metal to form the hinge section. I imagine some parts of the slug would have been hammered more than others to form the roughly L shaped forging that would have been needed.

I'm also guessing that the factory would have wanted to minimize waste—both in terms of the material to be removed from the raw forging, and the time needed for those subsequent machining operations. To keep things consistent, it would make sense to have the raw forgings conform to some pretty specific tolerances.

One thing I did notice when I was handling my Baby Russian was that the barrel tapers slightly from the breech end to the muzzle end. Is it possible that the four successively larger gaps in the gauge were used to gauge the width of the forging at various points along its cross-section?

My Baby Russian has a barrel width of exactly 0.500" at the back of the barrel (on the flats just in front of the latch). If the widest gap in this gauge was used for the back of the barrel forging, then it suggests that the machining and finishing operations would have removed about 0.075" from each side. For anyone familiar with forging and machining operations, does this seem feasible?

That's the best I can speculate on this, given that I've never even been in the same room as a hammer forge and am mostly making this up as I go.

Mike
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Old 01-03-2021, 09:18 PM
James E. McCall James E. McCall is offline
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Default S&W Model #3 Baby Russian .38 S&W caliber

I have the above firearm with last Patent Date Jan.19,1875 REISSUE July 25,1871 Serial # 98 both on Butt and Face of 5 shot Cylinder, is nickel plated w/ 99% of finish intact except at muzzle end which is dinged w/rust, barrel is about 75% clean but appears it was not well cleaned after last firing due this firearm using "Black Powder"cartridges . It has a lockout forward of the "spur" trigger which keeps the ejector from rising and keeping the rounds in the cylinder. The hammer stays at partial cock until pulled all the way back until after trigger is pulled and hammer then stays down until pulled back slightly and goes back to half cock or until latch is pulled up and it automatically goes to partial cock and then cylinder rotates freely. I have quite a few .38S&W loaded cases (as I Have two more S&W .38 S&W pistols of a later vintage but as I am a reloader of everything I own I will try to reload some empty cases with the same bullet it calls for and use a Black Powder substitute so I can fire this pistol. I also have a 1st Model 2nd issue that I fire w/ cb caps and it shoots well (7 shot .22) and I fire all of my S&W antiques not worrying about what some collectors may say, it is mine and I will shoot it. I was in the USMC from 9/20/58 until 12/10/62 when I joined the Teaneck PD NJ 07666 and put in 30 years until I retired in 1992. I was on their pistol team for over 15 years. While in the Corps I was "Expert" with M1 Garand, Browning BAR ,Colt 1911A1, and 106 Reccoilless Rifle. I was a "grunt" in "K" Company 3rd Battalion 8th Marine Regiment 2nd Marine Division and while there our Company/Regiment Armorer trained me to service/rebuild all arms used in our inventory so I could be useful in taking care of problems in the field w/ all Machine guns and Mortars . I also was assigned as our Department armorer so minor problems did not have to go back to the armory. As for your dimensions on the barrel of your "Baby Russian" I measured my own and came up with .555 from face of cylinder and .510 at the muzzle end so I think you are a little off in your measurements although with the Nickel Plating that may be the reason.
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