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  #1  
Old 12-20-2020, 10:28 PM
RealBigChin RealBigChin is offline
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Default Model No. 2 Army Pinkerton Engraving

I was doing a deep cleaning on my recently acquired S&W Model No. 2 Army .32 and found this engraving under the grip “PINKERTONS 1885.” Is it possible it was maybe owned and issued to an employee by the Pinkerton Detective Agency?

I was looking into getting a historical letter but it looks like guns manufactured pre 1880 only give a shipping date and no historical info. Serial #32xxx

The grips had clearly not been removed for many years and this engraving was underneath a layer of black paper material used to add width to make the grip screw be in proper alignment. It was also interesting that no reference was made to the engraving from the place it was acquired so it wasn’t as though they were trying to increase the value.
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Old 12-22-2020, 08:01 PM
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Welcome to the Forum. Interesting marking, but probably no way to confirm if it is connected to the Pinkerton Detective Agency. I have a Model 2 Army, converted to a boot gun ( rounded butt, short barrel & bobbed hammer) by a Pinkerton detective that was used to shoot & kill John Younger, of the James-Younger gang. 1st member of that gang to be killed by law enforcement. ( See: Battle of Monagaw Springs , St. Claire, MO. March 1874 ) That Model 2 was the personal gun of the detective, however and he had carried it in the Civil War. It has no Pinkerton marking. You can get a S&W factory historical record letter to see where the gun was shipped by S&W, on the slim chance it went to the Pinkerton Agency. Ed

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Old 12-24-2020, 08:03 AM
AlHunt AlHunt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
Welcome to the Forum. Interesting marking, but probably no way to confirm if it is connected to the Pinkerton Detective Agency. I have a Model 2 Army, converted to a boot gun ( rounded butt, short barrel & bobbed hammer) by a Pinkerton detective that was used to shoot & kill John Younger, of the James-Younger gang. 1st member of that gang to be killed by law enforcement. ( See: Battle of Monagaw Springs , St. Claire, MO. March 1874 ) That Model 2 was the personal gun of the detective, however and he had carried it in the Civil War. It has no Pinkerton marking. You can get a S&W factory historical record letter to see where the gun was shipped by S&W, on the slim chance it went to the Pinkerton Agency. Ed
Have you ever posted about this gun? Sounds like a pretty cool thing.
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Old 12-24-2020, 08:06 AM
AlHunt AlHunt is offline
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Well, I'm disappointed. I was looking forward to a lively debate about the authenticity of the engraving until one of you guys digs up some obscure reference in a little known document, sparking an even more heated debate about the authenticity of the document.
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Old 12-24-2020, 10:53 AM
BMur BMur is offline
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Default Pinkertons

I really don't know what you can expect from a Smith & Wesson forum regarding "The Pinkertons"?

The historical information regarding the Pinkertons is limited. They were a Private Eye "For hire" agency. One could call them Spies and I would agree with them. All the research I've done on Express and Law Enforcement firearms you would think that I would have stumbled upon a "Pinkerton" collector? NOPE.. The only historical artifacts that I have seen in a very long time collecting was an authentic pair of "iron" knuckles accompanied by an authentic ID of a Pinkerton agent of the very early 1900's. The iron Knuckles actually had PINKERTON cast in the iron. They were very neat. My collector buddy bought them as he collects knuckles.

As far as firearms? They were absorbed into a Government agency. I believe the FBI? How many FBI guns have you seen? A very secretive agency leaves very few traces to follow and had acquired a large data base of mug shots and criminal information.

I know of ZERO contracts with any Firearms manufacturers. You would think that having what they claimed as 2000 agents and 30,000 reservists at one point? That they would have purchased at least one contract of firearms from one of the major manufacturers? NONE are known to exist. "IT's a Secret"!! History paints them as Infiltrators, Spies, Thugs for hire, even being outlawed in some states. They sound to me like they were above the law and did whatever they could get away with that would satisfy their
wealthy employer.

Not much out there to collect that is authentic. Even if it was? It would be impossible to prove it.

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 12-24-2020 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 12-24-2020, 03:10 PM
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Al Hunt, My Model 2 Army boot gun, described above, came to me years ago through a member of my late wife's family, a Pinkerton descendent, now deceased, who gave it to me for my gun collection with only a verbal comment that he understood from family history that it was used by a Pinkerton detective, Cap't Lull, to kill John Younger in the shoot out at Monegaw Springs, MO. in 1874. ( Google that battle for more info. ) Ed.
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Old 12-24-2020, 03:54 PM
first-model first-model is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealBigChin View Post
I was looking into getting a historical letter but it looks like guns manufactured pre 1880 only give a shipping date and no historical info. Serial #32xxx.
A historical letter from this period will yield a few pieces of information, but I don't think it'll get you closer to answering your question.

The most obvious thing the letter will provide is the exact shipping date, which is nice to know but not particularly relevant to your historical question here. Yours probably shipped in December of 1864 or January of 1865.

The next is where the gun shipped to. Virtually all of the guns from this era shipped to Smith & Wesson's sole sales agent, who at this time was Joseph W. Storrs in New York City. Unfortunately, Storrs' records are not known to have survived, so there's no way of knowing where Storrs shipped it to. Or, you may get lucky and have one of the very few guns that were shipped elsewhere ... but unless it was shipped directly to Pinkerton's (highly unlikely), then it's not going to get you any further along than you are right now, since almost all of these guns ended up going to stores and mercantile of one sort or another. So it's not "nothing," but not far from nothing.

And the last is the configuration. In this case, almost certainly a factory blued Model 2 with wood stocks and either a 5" or 6" barrel (other lengths were available but are exceedingly rare). Again, this won't answer your Pinkerton questions.

There hasn't been a ton written about the Pinkertons, but there are some good journal articles out there that will get you started. Unfortunately, I very much doubt that any of this will help you authenticate this gun as having actually been owned by a Pinkertons agent, unless you can find some sort of equipment roster. If something like that existed, I suspect it would be well-known among the collecting community.

So yes, it could have been issued to a Pinkerton's agent, or it could have been a private weapon owned by an agent (which I suspect is rather more likely). But this could have been scratched onto the grip strap at any point in time; maybe by some kids in the 1930's that were playing cops-and-robbers. Who knows.

In any event, it's a neat mystery.

Mike
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Old 12-24-2020, 11:31 PM
RealBigChin RealBigChin is offline
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Thanks for all the info and input! Here are a few more pics of the gun in question.

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JSG5J3rvaNa9boxQMaM3WQQF9UGbbslqnqCR_supdxmMfofMP1PNqsZbzi8Rov0HDBArH4bAjXbJ1LyRBqikVXw-h2UfvNkJ9uXfBoE6dszpXVdEpSxmksvR3x0hZMR9_wTTCzg6PvBHiIrBquyf5EY1Mto91or8cW9xLE4UN**aeDCwSMumhacJGni_CH3Y9gZdtHcoYEy0cKgbAdlMSQQA8Ui6c5k3KBc0uCq5qd3iNRVxuyU4MRDarHBZz8U_ITQBgDPoy-ILvej585QyglsG67VH-etgB8Y3bskn_kkgt9jtub4ZOko_E_M92AlscD5Mo3cXa3wdtczsX7quqbb70DzEgcU5-nD5grgc7ly2gzSTzxABnaN_KY4sVOAxgZ9s_7qy3dGQ8cNTc5KGC7pwr7PLEVx0W7le0M0mXm3gFbvGOtaYb6S3ewjti08Q1sSf63qz9_G02xcBb6I2PdBUqmBbZNAMVSSvqQ3Y4NfM_tz8TLUmBKrgDvQFKhLnXwxojyhkSdgKlc13_SdJ7VAMvUgJDWvkCFEQpd2QAiVOkjN6SdZnIpIhDrn9lMvEOn7a8OZ8rt3TBMq5gdDKQmu6CiHRrhLrZsTPptLH3LH68U3vnRS8ZD9EmH_aVQa5EBwM3-8MIHnlkDe0wSsI_6YCaXctmRuPWlGrYwkgPHcFeZzouy3EMUupzHlk=w1125-h717-no?authuser=1[/IMG]



[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IduNMxfvzetNONZwJy331IQx0ix2Rd-dOjPRp8biU5o8ZSNu7E2ONPFbcm1fSGKJZ8TtRUSHnGrOXdpRelA1vICPqwKcfk7y030wxWdWXQZb7aNV3HRCZ5LtG-rKNRo1KleJm4VhRxhw2lLQsSNoRwZdOIKh40wLEKukI-xWIYYbEzhT4FeeAYl5aoyuF0fl91SuZSyP_Tq6BBMCBTv0NEYW7a-nQNXQsBCLBZvr4ZFsFpZVMZsf2MW3Azl57TEbwpWwFHarAemey3JF7jy-9eil1qjcaJGxODqCMFtCHR9fJXPq9Q1tWKysqxPUnbvRQHUc42uMFbNPrBrb_0_cRdazuC1GnKUqcqvZiqAwS4npl54aPht-vZCg2Klm0jz8TdnFp3IrvgFHnc6BPxGKX1UNY6uq2SsK9cOzy11D2OHtUKg3WLamXQ3Un96esyBFjX8GFg4wjM8d6tYArKubzlHzvs-4NXoCEEVrSsPM0**vkeJ_j-GciPSnEdnoDliEcoFG9eoIMAsu55T-Moc_yx5JZTIESJTXOQXIMsyiafI9n4nOaSK4sSOneCEXVn0l1C-Ycufe5_y5Z1z01tNbta8m3P3_eOvUEqF9qMJXoM_b16yJskgAQRdpwFcB_gCtrG5AWXRt-RAgRw2weNCNtyHJrg_077od2ZzVXUWrjvMbltlZGi08gEwTnPdo=w1125-h597-no?authuser=1[/IMG]

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  #9  
Old 12-25-2020, 07:02 AM
AlHunt AlHunt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
I really don't know what you can expect from a Smith & Wesson forum regarding "The Pinkertons"?
Oh, I have very high expectations of this forum my friend. I expect you guys will wrestle every scrap of possible S&W history to the ground, hogtie it and stand on it's neck until it's either proven true or debunked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
The historical information regarding the Pinkertons is limited. They were a Private Eye "For hire" agency. One could call them Spies and I would agree with them. All the research I've done on Express and Law Enforcement firearms you would think that I would have stumbled upon a "Pinkerton" collector? NOPE.. The only historical artifacts that I have seen in a very long time collecting was an authentic pair of "iron" knuckles accompanied by an authentic ID of a Pinkerton agent of the very early 1900's. The iron Knuckles actually had PINKERTON cast in the iron. They were very neat. My collector buddy bought them as he collects knuckles.

As far as firearms? They were absorbed into a Government agency. I believe the FBI? How many FBI guns have you seen? A very secretive agency leaves very few traces to follow and had acquired a large data base of mug shots and criminal information.

I know of ZERO contracts with any Firearms manufacturers. You would think that having what they claimed as 2000 agents and 30,000 reservists at one point? That they would have purchased at least one contract of firearms from one of the major manufacturers? NONE are known to exist. "IT's a Secret"!! History paints them as Infiltrators, Spies, Thugs for hire, even being outlawed in some states. They sound to me like they were above the law and did whatever they could get away with that would satisfy their
wealthy employer.

Not much out there to collect that is authentic. Even if it was? It would be impossible to prove it.
And, see there? I got a little speculation on the possible authenticity of OP's firearm.

I really didn't think that crude "engraving" would have any tenable connection to the Pinkertons, but hope springs eternal. And you guys rarely disappoint.
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Old 12-25-2020, 09:48 AM
mikerjf mikerjf is offline
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In my non-expert opinion, the significant evidence is not that it says “Pinkerton”, but that it is small and under the grip.

Hiding the engraving on a fake only makes sense if it is generally known that that is what Pinkertons did. And we don’t appear to know that.
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Old 12-25-2020, 02:04 PM
BMur BMur is offline
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Default confiscated piece/evidence

I don't think that there are any experts on the Pinkerton subject. At least none that I'm aware of. What is known about the Pinkertons is that they kept great records of criminals and criminal activity. Not unlike Wells Fargo agents of the 1880's time frame. Those detailed records would likely have included physical evidence. In fact, Obviously it did. The 1885 date scratched on the inner grip frame actually is when gathering evidence became an advanced procedure to controlling and prosecuting criminal activity.

I'm leaning on the possibility that this was actually not carried by the Pinkertons but it might have been collected by them as evidence and directly associated with a crime. The 1885 date does not make sense to me as being carried by a Pinkerton agent.
In researched fact, By this time the Centerfire pistol was recognized as extremely reliable and in use by "ALL" law enforcement and Express agencies that I have detailed research regarding. That includes the Schofield 45, Colt Lightning 38's, Smith & Wesson Top breaks in 38 caliber carried by many, many agencies and law enforcement alike.

Criminals on the other hand would use whatever they could get their hands on. So, I suspect it is related to "evidence" associated with some criminal activity. That's very possible in my mind. The scratched name and date would fit the "evidence" theory.

Murph
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Old 12-25-2020, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
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I don't think that there are any experts on the Pinkerton subject.
I don't know that there have been any full-length books published specifically on the Pinkertons, but there are a number of journal articles that discuss the agency to some level of depth. I don't have my research notes in front of me right now, but I recall at least one article that I found shortly after I defended my thesis, that was pretty good.

Policing in the 19th century—both public and private—is another under-researched topic that is ripe for good scholarship. The differences between policing then and now are pretty stark. Back then the motives were much more about protecting private property and large commercial enterprises, than it was about Peelian style community policing (the whole "to serve and protect" idea). To that end, private security companies of all shapes and sizes were employed by large industrial enterprises to protect their capital investments. The relationships between private and public agencies had manifold complications, and these were understandably not always well documented.

Discussions in this thread have touched on the Baltimore riots (this usually comes up when we talk about Baby Russians), and that's one great example of how policing had more to do with protecting "the establishment" than protecting civil rights. A difficult topic to research objectively, but my reading was that there was a lot of blurring of lines on both sides, such that there was no clear "good guy" and "bad guy."

And in terms of OP's gun, we need to remember that there's no definitive way to ascertain that the marks under the grip were actually put there in or around 1885. And Murph makes a good point that guns often had information like this scratched onto them to keep track of evidence, so that's another possibility.

A great mystery ... and one that will likely remain a mystery. All the same, this could be the start of a great symposium display.

Mike
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Old 12-25-2020, 11:58 PM
BMur BMur is offline
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Default Case Number?

Say Realbigchin,
I can't open your other 3 photo's but looking at your original post photo? If you look closely there is more to it than the Pinkertons 1885? Looks like an E and some numbers?

Can you look closely and see if there is something legible?

It's possible that those additional markings represent a case number. See in the photo I posted of an original Pinkerton MUG shot of a Train robber? Notice they assigned a case number to the Robber? Also a Mug shot number?

If say ones position is that the markings are faked? Then why would the additional letter and numbers be added to the markings? Might just represent a CASE NUMBER associated with a crime. Be careful not to wipe what's left off of that area. If the numbers are still legible that would be a great source for researching this gun.
A complete number would provide you with a very strong research starting point. If, of course records still exist? You never know.

Murph
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Old 01-02-2021, 10:07 PM
RealBigChin RealBigChin is offline
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That is a very interesting theory about evidence collection and probably the most plausible theory I’ve read so far. Thank you for the input.

I got some better photos of the engraving, took a little steel wool and gently cleaned some adhesive residue off that was over top of the engraving. It clearly reads “E.H.S.”

Also, I attached a picture of the paper like material that was covering the frame. When I first took the grips off you couldn’t really tell that this paper was there. Which is probably why the previous owner hadn’t noticed it.
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Old 01-03-2021, 03:36 PM
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Default Personalized inscription

RealBigchin,
Well, I was hoping it was a case number but it looks as though its more of a personalized inscription.

So, I honestly don't know where you can go from here. Inscriptions of this type vary as found often scratched inside grips. Authentic inscriptions of that early period often are inked on the inside of the grips that is normally very cursive.( Fancy) Very common type of writing back then. They were very disciplined in 1885 regarding their writing and printing.

However, for evidence gathering I would think a quick scratching would be more applicable. That's as far as my thinking goes.


Murph
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