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  #1  
Old 12-27-2020, 12:47 AM
DM32 DM32 is offline
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Default Bicycle gun smoothbore

I was looking at an 1870 Wesson Bicycle rifle/pistol (?) today that's been converted to a .38 centerfire smoothbore.
It's a single shot with a very long barrel and a metal shoulder stock. The barrel twists to the right for loading.
Was this commonly done to these guns with bad bores?
Can they be relined?
It's in great shape except that it's a centerfire smoothbore.
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Old 12-27-2020, 11:54 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Are you sure it was converted?
Flayderman shows an 1870 Wesson Pocket Shotgun in .38 and .44 shot.

Legal caution: Flayderman said as of 1997 it was still a SBS, not removed from NFA regulation.

Last edited by Jim Watson; 12-27-2020 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 12-27-2020, 12:00 PM
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Actually, I'm not sure it was converted. I checked Flaydermans but couldn't find anything. Interesting. I'll check Flaydermans again.
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Old 12-27-2020, 12:23 PM
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Yep, Flaydermans page 270. Less than 100 made. I saw it at a Cabelas. I'll call them and ask about the NFA classification. Hopefully, they'll know if they're selling it.
Thanks.
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Old 12-27-2020, 02:56 PM
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Smooth bore guns that are antiques are still antiques, and not considered to be firearms. I was told that by the ATF some years ago when I came across a Model 1880 .38DA that was shipped as a smooth bore by the factory for use by a trick shot artist shooting glass balls in a stage show. Smooth bore post 1898 firearms require special dispensation by the ATf to avoid the tax stamp, as was done for Pres. Truman's friend, Congressman King for a .44 smoothbore revolver he owned.
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Old 12-27-2020, 03:17 PM
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I have to pay closer attention when I see a gun that interests me. I called Cabelas and they told me that the barrel is 24". I knew it was long, but not that long.
The salesman also told me that it doesn't look like it's been altered.
Time for a second look.
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Old 12-27-2020, 04:46 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Flayderman says the pocket rifles were rimfire.
Last patent date on the pocket shotgun is Nov 11, 1862 which seems odd on an 1870 pattern gun.
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Old 12-27-2020, 05:49 PM
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Default Frank Wesson

Frank Wesson did make a 38 centerfire smoothbore. It was called the 1870 Pocket Shotgun. Extremely rare. I have a .44 rimfire Large frame Pocket Rifle lacking the stock unfortunately but its a two digit serial number. Less than 50 were made.

So, I don't think this .38cf is altered....Just extremely rare. It's a keeper in my book. Manufactured between 1870-75. Also listed as "likely" less than 50 made and split between the 44cf and 38cf. If it comes with a matching stock? WOW! is all I can say.

Here is the catch....If the barrel length is the typical 15" it was considered an illegal length barrel by the N.F.A. since it's less than 18"...So, you might want to look into that before you pull the trigger on getting it. It's absolutely stupid in my book but it is what it is.
I'm not sure if it is now exempt or not but I wouldn't want to take the chance. It is antique but its was on the list for years as being illegal. Even required at one point to be destroyed. Again, stupid but whatever...

Opps, just noticed it has a 24" barrel? That's awesome. GET IT!!!!

My .44 Rimfire is exempt because it's not a shotgun.


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 12-27-2020 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 12-28-2020, 10:15 AM
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Per Frank Wesson Gunmaker, less than 50 were made in .38 and .44 Centerfire. The only reported barrel lengths are 15.5 and 20.25 inch. Look for a bead front sight and no indication of a barrel-mounted rear. All smoothbores were special order, so if it looks promising I would probably take a chance on a one of a kind.

Bob
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Old 12-28-2020, 02:56 PM
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I bought the pocket shotgun this morning. It has a front bead sight. The serial number on the butt looks like 13. I haven't measured the bore or taken it apart yet, but I will.
As far as the barrel length - if measured to the end of the octagonal rear section, it is 24".
The patent date is 1870.

In the pic with the tape measure - that's the extraction knob under the 23".
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Old 12-28-2020, 04:44 PM
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The puzzle grows.
I removed the grips. On each grip is stamped the number 12. Now I can see a 12 on the butt (not 13).
On the underside of the barrel is the number 2023. The barrel is 24 1/4" long.
It's definitely centerfire.
A S&W .38 case will not fit (too wide) but a .38 Special case fits and extracts perfectly. The extractor is hand activated by sliding a knob and pushing the case out.
Then there's that rear sight.
I have an 1873 Maynard with a .40-40 rifled barrel and a smoothbore barrel. Switching the barrels takes a minute or two. A Maynard owner could contact the factory and ask for an additional barrel - either a smoothbore or a different caliber.
I was thinking that maybe Wesson offered different barrels, but the rifled barrels were for rimfire ammo. The Maynards were all centerfire.
Interesting gun.
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  #12  
Old 12-28-2020, 05:41 PM
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Default Authentic/unaltered?

Very neat collectable. Congrats!

Interesting that it has a different number on the barrel? Unless it has been machine altered from a 32rf to a 38 cf smooth bore? How does the bore look? It should also have a machined chamber with case stop. My 44Rimfire does....I'm going to dig mine out and post a few photo's. I am torn between a modified barrel and simply Frank Wesson using one of the 5000 barrels he had laying around for the 32rf? It's possible since these are so rare. Just strange that the number doesn't match. That's a tough one to swallow.

I recommend you look closely at the hammer and recoil shield. It's pretty obvious when a gun is converted from rimfire to centerfire. If the hammer looks unaltered and the recoil shield looks uncut? Then it has to be legit. I'd look closely though. If it's altered from a standard 32rf the value isn't there.

Could you post additional photo's of the hammer? I'm curious as to what a centerfire hammer would have looked like on one of these.

Also: "Does the stock have a matching number???"


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 12-28-2020 at 05:50 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-28-2020, 06:21 PM
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I can't find a number on the stock.
The recoil shield looks unaltered.
I don't know what a RF hammer would look like so I can't compare (that's not a very good pic of the hammer).
It did pop a primer in a .38 SP case.
The extractor is set up and situated for a .38 case.
The bore is really good, with no pitting. It doesn't look like it was newly bored out.
There's a button on the left that, when pushed when the hammer is half cocked, slides a bar in front of the hammer so it won't drop on a loaded round. Fully cock the hammer and the bar slides out of the way.
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Old 12-28-2020, 08:36 PM
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Default 44 Rimfire

Yeah,
It has a floating pin just like the Stephens single shot. I've never looked at the more common 32 rimfire. Keep in mind that they made 5000 of those and they are also 1/2 round and 1/2 octagon with various barrel lengths. Likely the 32 rimfire also has a floating pin.

My 44 Rimfire on the large frame does not. It's cut out at the top of the recoil shield. This is a tough one to evaluate. My gut is telling me its been altered but I would have to have it in hand to confirm it's been machined. To change a floating rimfire pin to centerfire isn't difficult. The serial number should match. Also, the barrel must be a one piece. Is it? If it's two pieces? It's definitely altered. I'm also not liking the machine work where the floating pin is struck by the hammer. The hammer slot? Looks very rough, not smooth like it should be. The pin also looks very shiny.

You know what you could do also? Mic' the bore....It "MUST BE" .375....That was the typical "early" .38 caliber. That includes a smooth bore! If someone faked it? They didn't get the bore right. I'd bet on that. NO SUCH animal as a .358 bore in 1875!!!! This would also "Pre-date" the .360 S&W round! I'm kinda having a problem with that 38 special case length fitting in this chamber too. The 38 Long case would likely be the chambering for this "shot" round. It's possible that it would be the 38XL but in a centerfire? Hmmmm.. The 38 special case should not fit in my opinion. It should hit the case stop "shy" of chambering. I'll have to look up the 38XL case length but that's a stretch in my opinion it would have been the 38L shot round.

My 44 Rimfire has a matching number under the lug and under the left grip on the iron frame. Also on both grips.

Here are a couple photo's of mine. It has an 18" rifled barrel with a clear chamber and case stop, iron frame, correct sights, matching numbers. It is missing the stock and the auto spring ejector is missing inside the lug. I'll replace that some day.


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 12-28-2020 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 12-28-2020, 09:26 PM
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The barrel is one piece.
I will slug the bore. .38 SP does seem strange. I figured the .38 S&W would fit, but, no.
I'm still thinking about the Maynard with the interchangeable barrels, especially since you mentioned a floating pin like the Stevens.
My Maynard has a matching numbered smoothbore barrel, but the serial number was added by the factory when the owner ordered the barrel. They stamped a matching number to the gun. The .40-40 barrel does not match, but it didn't come with the gun (but it does fit).
Stay with me while I play S. Holmes...
Stevens bought out Maynard. Maynard, Stevens and Wesson were all located in Massachusetts (as am I). Chicopee, MA (Stevens, Maynard) to Worchester MA (Wesson) is 42 miles.
Maybe you could order an extra barrel for a Wesson, as you could with the Maynard.
Which brings up a good question: what happened to Massachusetts? It used to be a gun haven.
I'll slug the bore.
I wonder if there's any Wesson records available to see what #12 was when it left the factory.
In the pic: Maynard over a Stevens.
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Old 12-28-2020, 10:11 PM
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Default Cross Referencing

Some references claim the "POCKET SHOTGUN" was manufactured from 1870-1975. I think that's pure guess. What we do know for a fact is that the .38 centerfire was not introduced until 1875 for the Colt NEW LINE. That would include "shot" cartridges. So, the chamber for this .38 centerfire must be designed for the .38 Long centerfire if it's original.

Your point is well taken regarding a later ordered barrel? Still, it should not chamber the 38 special in my opinion so not unlike the mis-matched barrel number? The chamber is odd. If it was originally designed for "Shot" in .38 centerfire in 1875? It should have a chamber that stops at the length of a 38 Long case.

If someone altered this barrel to chamber a .38 centerfire? I would bet that they altered it to the modern .38 which would be .358 that started in 1899. Tooling for the .375 bore in my opinion would be very hard to find but .358 is common.

So, if it does Mic' at .375 then it's an original .38 shotgun barrel. I suppose that's all that really matters.


Murph

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Old 12-28-2020, 11:02 PM
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I used a caliper to get some measurements, instead of driving a lead ball into the barrel.
The breech end measures .375".
The muzzle measures .358".
Approx. 1.90" into the breech, the bore narrows (forming a step). I can't measure it but I'm guessing it drops down to .358".
A .357 Mag case does not reach this "step".
What was the case length of a .38 shot shell?
So, was the bore reduction a choke?
Or, was the barrel relined to .358?
If I was going to reline a barrel, I'd probably go with a rifled liner. This is smoothbore all the way.
I'll try to find the length of a .38 shot shell.
Also, the 38/357 cases are not a tight fit. I'll try to find the dimensions of a 38 Long case. If it's slightly wider than a 38 SP but not as wide as a 38 S&W, that would make sense.

Last edited by DM32; 12-28-2020 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 12-28-2020, 11:27 PM
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Default Modified

In my opinion you just proved it was altered To the modern 38 cal bore specs. The 38 center fire shot case in 1875 would be identical to the 38 Long. I have a few in my collection. Maybe they made custom rounds for 1 of 50 guns manufactured? That’s a stretch though.

Even as an example the Hopkins & Allen Chichester long barrel pocket rifles were smooth bored to applicable 38 Long calibers of era manufactured. 1879ish. In other words the bores mic to .375 +\- .002. The shot bore was not unusual in the latter part of the 19th century. A way to catch butterflies without a net, species of birds without a lot of tissue damage, very small game, etc. see photos of The XL shotgun introduced in about 1887. Much later that this 1875 Frank Wesson. Unless the book references are not correct? The 1870 patent date would be a problem though?

.358 bore was not introduced until the .38 special in 1899!

That’s why I suggested to mic the bore. The machinist would not be historically accurate in his/her alteration!! .375 would be correct for 1875!


Murph
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Old 12-29-2020, 12:08 AM
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Kinda makes sense, but why reline a barrel into a smoothbore .38 when it was already a smoothbore .38? Unless it was a .32 rimfire as you mentioned.
Doesn't a 38 Long Colt use a .357" diameter bullet, same as the .38 SP?
Why didn't the machinist continue the liner further up into the breech?
Questions, questions...
It'll come to me...

Last edited by DM32; 12-29-2020 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 12-29-2020, 12:42 AM
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Default 1875

The year 1875 the 38 Long centerfire used an outside lubricated.375 bullet. That changed in 1891 to an inside lubricated hollow based bullet but the bore of said firearm remained at .375.

All this stuff on the Frank Wesson is speculative. Very limited info. For all we know this pocket shotgun could have been special ordered in 1893 and put together with leftover parts! When you are talking about 50 made? Anything goes!

From a collectors perspective the non matching numbers are a significant issue! What I would do is try to locate another one ( Good Luck!) and see what kind of specs it has. If it matches yours? Document it. Photo it. My 44 Rimfire is the only one I’ve seen in over 40 years but to be honest it’s not like I was looking hard!

Research is the answer but you picked a very hard subject to find and follow up on.

Find another one! Either caliber will work. Compare features, matching numbers? Floating pin?, chamber and bore specs?, etc

To evaluate your antique further I must have it in my hands! Photos that aren’t high detail and someone’s else descriptions just don’t work for this rare bird. Sorry.


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 12-29-2020 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 12-29-2020, 01:01 AM
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I appreciate your help and theories. As you said, with possibly fewer than 50 made, who knows what's what.
As far as value - I know that rare does not equal value. I have a James Warner revolver in .28 - only a few hundred were made. The same revolver was also made in .32 - over 9,000 of them. And, the .32 is worth more.
I like oddball guns, and this is one.
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Old 12-29-2020, 10:01 AM
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According to the Frank Wesson book, the chambering should have been centerfire shot in the .38 Stevens Everlasting case (I don't have the dimensions). I have a special order model 1870 target pistol with non-matching numbers; I was told that is not unusual for special orders as parts were grabbed from other guns in progress.
Per the pictures in the book, however, the rear sight is a problem. To my knowledge, no factory records are available. I am also partial to oddballs and the output of any of the Wesson family. I love it.

Bob

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Old 12-29-2020, 11:23 AM
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On the octagonal base of the barrel there's a witness mark that lines up with the same mark on the long barrel, which of course means that it's a two piece barrel. There's a member of the ASSRA named John Bly who does great work rebuilding barrels. John Bly -The Gunsmith Photo Gallery by halp at pbase.com

Why wasn't my gun relined/refitted with a rifled barrel? Someone just wanted a longer shotgun, I guess. Maybe they didn't continue the liner into the breech because they wanted to use the original size case.
Breech - .375". Muzzle -.357". Was that a choke?
.38 Stevens Everlasting case - that's interesting. I'm going to try a .38 Long Colt case to see if it fits better than the .38 SP case.

Last edited by DM32; 12-29-2020 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 12-29-2020, 01:17 PM
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Default Lack of factory documents

When we cross reference other companies at the exact same time frame? I don't know of any "non" matching serial number special orders. Even "conversions" were given a matching set of numbers when using parts from other guns, even other calibers. There was always a "matching" number given to the modified part from a "Factory" rework. That's all I'm saying. That includes: Colt, Hopkins & Allen, Remington, Bacon Manufacturing Co, later Bacon Arms Co, Starr 44 and 38 Conversions. I've seen Starr Conversions with smooth bores also. "Matching numbers". And those were not even factory reworks! They were sold much later to Spanish Companies and reworked by them. Often having Belgium proofs on them. So who knows.

Anything is possible but you would have to document "proof" of several examples to support any position. Especially since this variation is extremely rare? It's also possible that they were made up by someone wanting to sell leftover parts during a period that shot barrels were common. Who knows??

I've seen Colt dragoons with 12" barrels that were so well done that some collectors also attributed them to being "Special Order". However, close examination shows a distinct line inside the barrel where the two piece barrel was threaded and machine assembled. That's not factory work!

Quality custom work was performed by talented gunsmiths during that period. Barrel changes are one of the most common modifications out there.

Also, the 38-45 Stevens "everlasting" was introduced in 1875. The specs do not match the OP's gun. Bullet diameter is .363, neck of the case is .395, and the base diameter is "huge" at .455. that's a tapered case! That's not what the OP is describing. The spec's he described fit the .358 specs "PERFECTLY". It screams "post 1899 modification"!!!

"Extremely" rare examples of any gun without proper documentation is "PURE" speculation. NON matching "factory" assembled guns? That's a tough swallow guys. NOW adding a two piece construction barrel? Screams "modification". NOT special order. I'm now wondering if these shotguns were a contract modified gun. Find one with matching numbers and I'm on board.

All of the known Frank Wesson Pocket Rifles were 1 piece construction barrels. That includes my 44 Rimfire "LARGE FRAME". It's "solid" one piece construction. Rifled barrels up to and including 22". Why would you need to make a non matching two piece construction barrel for a smooth bore shotgun in .38 cal?

Why not just machine a previously existing .32 rimfire barrel to a smooth bore .38 and re-number it to match the special order?

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 12-29-2020 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 12-29-2020, 08:56 PM
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Actually, the 38 SP case is a sloppy fit, even if it does work. Why would someone reline the barrel for a .38 SP but stop 1.9" from the breech, and not use a rifled liner? I'm going to try a 38 Long Colt case. There's also a 38 Extra Long Colt case.
I spoke with RCC Brass and they said that if I send them a chamber cast, they can make a case that fits. But that gets pricey.
I could have the barrel relined. I don't like to mess with history but it's already been messed with.
Most likely, I'll leave it as it is.
We'll never know for sure what was done to the gun. The grips and frame are authentic. The barrel is - and I hate this expression - what it is.
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Old 12-29-2020, 11:19 PM
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As long as you're having fun, that's all that matters. You can't take this stuff with you. I've been accused many times of buying junk by collectors. I had a great time doing it! Now my junk is worth a lot!! Make sure you post your cast of the chamber and what it mic's at. Maybe the forum can figure out what caliber shot it was intended for?

Murph
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  #27  
Old 12-29-2020, 11:53 PM
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The big question is, why is the chamber length from the breech to the liner so long? It doesn't make sense to stop the liner that short, especially when using shot shells. Was there any .38 case that was 1.9" long?
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Old 12-30-2020, 02:34 AM
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Default Rifle round?

Maybe this pocket shotgun was designed to chamber a rifle round that was manufactured with "shot"? The 38 Ballard "Extra Long" would likely fit this chamber but it wasn't introduced until 1886. If you search for Antique shot cartridges? You can find them for most pistol rounds of that era but I've never seen rifle rounds with shot. Doesn't make much sense to me. The 38 Long pistol round is easily found in the Shot round. I mean the range of a 38 caliber "shot" round would be about what? 25 yards max? Tiny bb's driven by black powder loads? Not much distance to speak of.

I did a search of the Frank Wesson pocket rifles and found that the earlier frames were brass and the later frames were iron. Higher serial numbers seem to have a floating firing pin. Earlier serial numbers have a rimfire hammer.

It's strange that your frame has a two digit serial number and is iron? Right? It's not brass correct?

If it is iron then it's a later frame with a floating firing pin. So the iron frame with low serial number actually fits the "Pocket Shotgun" profile. However, I did find several 32 rimfires with iron frames and floating pins that look "exactly" like your recoil shield. So, who knows. There was definitely a transition from rimfire hammer to floating pin on later frames.


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Old 12-30-2020, 06:36 AM
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It's definitely iron.
I found something online the other day - and, of course, I didn't save it - that said Wesson designed guns that could switch between RF and CF by adjusting the hammer. I'll see if I can find that info again.
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Old 12-30-2020, 12:23 PM
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I would be tempted to load some .38 Special brass with round ball and black powder and see how it shot with the rifle rear sight.

There was a .44 Ball for the Marble's Game Getter that gave me the idea.
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Old 12-30-2020, 01:07 PM
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Default Early shot rounds

The early Black powder 38 cal “shot” rounds actually had an extended cone that looks like a barrel. That’s where the lead shot was located. It wasn’t inside the case like a 12 gauge. The photo depicts a post 1891 design. The earlier shot 38’s looked like a wadcutter sticking way outside the case. Might be why the chamber is so long.

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Old 12-30-2020, 11:04 PM
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Great pic. It'd be interesting to know the OAL of those rounds.
I think I was off in my chamber measurement. I said 1.9" but it was probably more like 1.40".
I wonder if they used the Stevens 38-55 or even the Ballard 38 cases. From what I read, the Everlast cases were made thicker so they'd last longer.
I'm going to use a .357 Mag case with BP and shot. I slugged both ends of the liner and it's right around .358". I'm going to cut a spacer from a .357 Mag case to put between the end of the liner and the case mouth. I cut one today as a test, and it fits snugly - I just have to cut it to the correct length.
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Old 12-31-2020, 01:27 AM
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Default Case Spec's

I have no idea what the spec's are on those rare cartridges. Looking forward to your range report on the ball round/black powder load. Should be interesting. Maybe you can take some really good photo's of the bore? and Chamber for the forum before you shoot it? I'd also like to see those witness marks on the barrel and receiver. Can you please photo it under natural light? Outside?

Thanks


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Old 12-31-2020, 12:25 PM
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I think the gun is a three part gun. The original frame, the barrel (21") and the lug (3"). Where the lug and barrel came from, I have no idea. Maybe they met at a Wesson party.
I still think that the barrel was lined to choke the extra long barrel down to .358", not to make it a 38 SP. It's all speculation at this point.
Here's a pic of the witness marks:
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Old 12-31-2020, 12:43 PM
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Default Moonlight photo?

Well that sure wasn’t done yesterday was it.

I would need to see this in hand. From the moonlight photo it’s hard to believe that’s two piece. You can actually “see” a separation line inside the chamber?

Murph
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Old 12-31-2020, 12:51 PM
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Any separation line inside the chamber would be covered by the liner. It extends past that point.
As I mentioned earlier, John Bly works magic on the old Maynards.

John Bly -The Gunsmith Photo Gallery by halp at pbase.com
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Old 12-31-2020, 01:01 PM
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Default More photos

I think we need to see some really good photos here in daylight where the barrel meets the frame and inside the chamber. We can’t see what you are seeing.

That looks like Very old work and very well done. It was done before John Bly was born!

The scribe looks very old, the metal aging and patina matches between the receiver and barrel. Looks old to me but “ better photos” would help?

Murph
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Old 12-31-2020, 01:37 PM
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I never meant that John Bly did the work, just that a talented gunsmith can work wonders.
That photo was taken in outside light. It's dark and cloudy here.
As I said, the liner extends beyond the point where the inside line would be. There's no reason for witness marks unless the lug/stub and barrel were joined at some point.
I'll let you know how it shoots with the .357 case and BP.
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Old 01-01-2021, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DM32 View Post
I think the gun is a three part gun. The original frame, the barrel (21") and the lug (3"). Where the lug and barrel came from, I have no idea. Maybe they met at a Wesson party.
The longest standard barrel length on the early S&W .32 and .38 revolvers was 6". The scarce 8" and 10" barrels were made by fitting a longer barrel to a cut shorter barrel. If S&W did it, it cannot be a sin.

BMur:
"When we cross reference other companies at the exact same time frame? I don't know of any "non" matching serial number special orders. Even "conversions" were given a matching set of numbers when using parts from other guns, even other calibers. There was always a "matching" number given to the modified part from a "Factory" rework. That's all I'm saying. That includes: Colt, Hopkins & Allen, Remington, Bacon Manufacturing Co, later Bacon Arms Co, Starr 44 and 38 Conversions."

This is the authors' explanation in the Frank Wesson book for the non-matching numbers on the previously mentioned target pistol. As stated by BMur, unusual but perhaps the norm for the few special order Frank Wessons.





Bob

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Old 01-01-2021, 12:21 PM
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Default Lack of information

My mind is certainly wide open on this one. It has to be since the gun is so rare and few if any of us have seen one of these "Pocket Shotguns" before. I'm certainly not an authority on these and I don't know of anyone that is. However, you must see and examine "several" before you can apply a reliable "opinion" of authenticity.

So, how does one evaluate it as being original? The numbers don't match, the barrel is two piece, and having a .358 bore with .375 chamber that does not match the Authors claim of a Stevens rifle round chambering?

What I see that supports it being original is the low "iron" frame serial number ( I have no explanation for that) with floating centerfire pin and the latest photo from the OP showing a "very old" scribe mark on the two piece barrel. That looks "very old" to me. Again, I sure wish I could see this one in hand. I'm not claiming to be an authority on this but I'm pretty good at spotting modifications and alterations. If there is no evidence of an alteration? I'm on board.

What I personally don't like is the non matching numbers, the rear rifle sight on the receiver?, the .358 bore with .375 chamber, and honestly what is the purpose for the two piece barrel? When Frank Wesson made 22" rifled barrels that were one piece? That makes zero sense to me. I'm on the side of this being a well made non factory custom shotgun during a time when "shot" pocket type rifles were very common.

Put togethers and "MODIFIED TARGET GUNS" are "EXTREMELY" common so it's definitely a difficult gun to evaluate with limited photo's and information.

Also, to be honest? I don't see the relevance between the two piece Smith & Wesson barrel and this gun. The two piece Smith & Wesson barrel is "well documented" no question of its authenticity in both the Revolving rifle and extremely rare long barrel Single and double action pistols. I have a few in my collection. We have Zero information on this Pocket Shotgun and certainly not enough examples to even guess. This is the only one I've kind of seen in moonlight photo's.

Happy New Year!


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 01-01-2021 at 01:30 PM.
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  #41  
Old 01-01-2021, 01:33 PM
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A gunsmith took the #12 frame, #2023 lug (that had a rifle sight) and an extra long barrel and put them all together. He kept the chamber at .375", but lined the barrel with a .358" liner (unrifled to keep it as a shotgun). The liner acted as a choke. The chamber was kept that size so it would take a longer brass case (Stevens .38-50 or whatever). The .375" Stevens case held more BP than a .358" case.
It's tempting to have it relined with rifling but I don't think I'll mess with it.
I sized some .375" round balls to .356" and I'm loading them into a .357 Mag case over 25 grs BP. I'm guessing it'll be accurate for ten feet or so.

Better photos won't add much to the story.

Last edited by DM32; 01-01-2021 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 01-01-2021, 01:46 PM
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Default Pocket Shotgun

When I get some time, I'll look through my Distributor catalogs and see if I can even find a listing for a "POCKET" shotgun for Frank Wesson. I'm wondering if any were even actually made or if this was some Collector generated title. Not unlike the model 1 "EAGLE GRIPS" for the Single Action Army that turned out to be well made "SPANISH Copies" and not Colts.


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Old 01-01-2021, 01:55 PM
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Definitely a VERY cool find.
The name "pocket shotgun" is a real hoot though.
How can a gun with a 24" barrel be called a pocket gun?
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Old 01-01-2021, 02:42 PM
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Default Pocket Shotgun

That was fast!
I just did some minimal research without my Distributor catalogs. From some old Gun catalog references I have and Flaydermans.

You can see that Stevens also clearly made a pocket shotgun and also what cartridges they chambered. No brainer that Frank Wesson’s Pocket shotguns would have chambered the same cartridges. NO listing for the 38 Long. All Stevens everlasting rounds etc. see photos. I think that proves this is an alteration/modification.

Murph
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Old 01-02-2021, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
I'm wondering if any were even actually made or if this was some Collector generated title.
Murph


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Old 01-02-2021, 01:13 PM
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The rear sight on mine rules it out as a factory-made pocket shotgun, which I never thought it was. I looked at the 21" barrel but can't see where two shorter barrels might have been joined to make it. The 3" lug was obviously made later (#2023 serial number). I don't see a serial number on the stock. The fact that it was relined means that someone with a definite purpose worked on it at some point.
Apparently it sat at Cabela's for a long time because no one knew what it was.
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Old 01-02-2021, 03:05 PM
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Default Frank Wesson

I still find it hard to believe that Frank Wesson actually manufactured a "Pocket shotgun". Stevens was the "originator" of the title "Pocket Shotgun" and made over 3000 in "Stevens" calibers and others. "Documented and proven"!! "Clear period advertisements" of Stevens Pocket Shotguns! NONE for Frank Wesson!!

Amazing to me that the author claims that possibly less than 25 were made and yet somehow they "found" serial number 1 and 2. I think the odds on that are about a billion to one.

To manufacture a "pocket shotgun" out of a .32 rimfire pocket rifle would not be difficult. In fact it would be simple machining of an existing .32 rimfire barrel. The OP's gun is obvious proof of that.

Early Frank Wesson listings from "Period"...In other words advertisements from that ERA do not mention a "Pocket Shotgun" for Frank Wesson products. "NO LISTING FOUND".

I believe even more now that this originated from Collectors using the "Original" Stevens title and plugging it into the Frank Wesson Pocket Rifle. Solely based on "altered" guns found. Convinced that they are factory original solely based on the quality of the alteration and ZERO FACTORY EVIDENCE!!! Using terms that are familiar to collectors, like "special order", RARE, very few made.

Research requires "PROOF", not story telling. Without proof, these are gunsmith put togethers. NOT a difficult alteration!!!

Even the authors estimate of when the Pocket shotguns were made is ridiculous. How can Frank Wesson have manufactured Pocket Shotguns between 1870-1875 when the Stevens Pocket shotguns were not in production until 1876?
LOOK at my "RESEARCHED" photo's posted!!!

Having a newly developed "STEVENS" shot round that wasn't developed until 1876?


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 01-02-2021 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 01-02-2021, 04:12 PM
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Chicopee, MA (Stevens, Maynard) to Worchester, MA (Wesson) is 42 miles. There's a train that travels between the cities now, and probably was a train back in the day.
I'm guessing they knew each other and worked together.
Is mine a factory "Pocket shotgun?" No. Not at all. Does it matter to me? No. Not at all.
I bought it 'cause it's cool, unique, and, apparently, one of a kind.
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Old 01-06-2021, 02:54 PM
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I measured the difference in the length of the chamber and the length of a .357 Mag case, and cut a piece from a .357 Mag case to that length (as a spacer) and inserted it in the chamber, down to the liner. Then I loaded up a few .357 cases - 5 with 20 grs BP and enough shot to fill the case (card between powder and shot), then glued a card over the top of the shot. Then I loaded 2 cases with 25 grs BP and a roundball sized to .356. I actually used a bore camera to see if the roundballs extended into the spacer that I had made, and they did.
I went to the range and fired away from the amazing distance of 10 feet. I didn't shoot from the shoulder, or from the hip, but settled the stock into my arm above my elbow and pointed.
It's not an everyday shooter, but it's fun to shoot.
A .357 Max case would be better.
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