Is this a S&W Model 1 2nd Issue?

Projectman · #1 01-07-2021, 11:40 AM

I have included a picture of the gun with a El Paso Policeman's badge, but don't have documentation tying the two items together. Any hints of where I should start? I reached out to the El Paso Historical Society years ago but they weren't any help.

More pictures can be viewed here - Smith & Wesson - Google Drive

Here is what I found on line about the gun:

Model Number One:
These are always in .22 caliber with 7 shot cylinders and small frames. There are 3 different Issues of the Model One.
1st Issues have 6 different variations...but all have octagon barrels and silver plated brass frames that are rounded behind the recoil shield...they also have pivoting hammers and round sideplates. They have squared off pistol grips You won't see these very often because they only made about 11,000 of them. I'm going to cut corners here and not go into the 6 sub-variants but just so you know...the early ones are quite rare and valuable. Almost always found with blued barrels/cylinders and silver plated frames. S&W's very first revolver...and historically if I'm not mistaken, the first modern American cartridge gun. Made from 1857-1860. Numbered from 1 to 11,671.
2nd Issues look like 1st Issues except they have squared frames and squared pistol grips. The side plates aren't round...but a much improved large oval shape. They still have brass frames with silver plating and the hammers are a solid one piece design. Almost always blued barrels and cylinders with silver plated frames. Made from 1860 to 1868. Numbered from 11672-128000.

opoefc · #2 01-07-2021, 03:41 PM

Welcome to the Forum. Do you have a question about the gun ? The info you have posted is mostly correct except for the serial number ranges. The 1st model stopped at serial # 11,000, the transition model prior to the second issues numbers run from 11,000 to 12000, then the 2nd issues started at #12,000 etc. What is the serial number of your Model 1 ? The badge appears to be real and matches other genuine El Paso Police badges of the past that I have seen. Ed

Projectman · #3 01-07-2021, 04:34 PM

Serial Number - 76645. A couple of other photos included. I wish I could show the history of the badge and prove it goes with the gun. That would increase the value of the set.

opoefc · #4 01-07-2021, 11:51 PM

Yes, That's a Model One, 2nd issue, and seems to be all there and in fair condition. I don't know what history you have on the gun & the badge, however considering the gun is not one that any sane policeman would be carrying in the performance of his duties ( except maybe as a last resort hide out weapon ) . You can research the badge on some of the badge collector forums to get a time period for its use, probably early 20th century era. Good luck, Ed

first-model · #5 01-08-2021, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Projectman

Serial Number - 76645. A couple of other photos included. I wish I could show the history of the badge and prove it goes with the gun. That would increase the value of the set.

That serial number probably shipped in the October 1865 timeframe.

Mike

Projectman · #6 01-08-2021, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opoefc

Yes, That's a Model One, 2nd issue, and seems to be all there and in fair condition. I don't know what history you have on the gun & the badge, however considering the gun is not one that any sane policeman would be carrying in the performance of his duties ( except maybe as a last resort hide out weapon ) . You can research the badge on some of the badge collector forums to get a time period for its use, probably early 20th century era. Good luck, Ed

I did some research on the badge and was told it looked to be from the mid 1800s.

first-model · #7 01-08-2021, 10:38 AM

The chances of the badge and the Model 1 being directly related to one another are low. As others have mentioned, the Model 1 wasn't really a police duty gun; it was one of the original 1860's concealed carry guns that targeted urban dwellers who didn't want to sling a big Colt in their belt. I'm sure that there were some cops that carried a Model 1, but those were probably the exception to the rule.

There's a near certainty that your gun shipped to Joseph W. Storrs in New York City, who was acting as Smith & Wesson's sole sales agent at the time. Unfortunately, Storrs' sales records are not known to exist (if they ever existed), so there's not really a way to say where the gun went from there. Storrs was selling to dealers and wholesalers across the country (and around the world), so it could just as easily have ended up in New York City or Buenos Aires.

It's just part of the intrigue and lore of these little guns.

Mike

BMur · #8 01-08-2021, 01:35 PM

The most common badge of the mid-1870's until beyond the turn of the century was the Shield Badge design seen in several photo's below.

The 6 point star badge is generally a very early badge, however they do show up now and again in small outfits like Railroad police, etc. However, they DO NOT show up in larger police forces for larger cities unless we are talking about very early period law enforcement. Once a standard badge was developed it is seen for many decades. Again, the most common being the shield badge seen below that was probably first introduced in the 1870's.

I never got into collecting badges because they are probably the most commonly reproduced collectable out there!! Reproductions are proven from the 1920's! So how exactly can you authenticate a badge unless you have rock solid provenance.

When the Model 1 S&W 22 was in production badges on law enforcement were generally unique and fancy if at all. They looked nothing like the old west 6 point star. They looked more like a round metallic starburst. Nothing like the OP's badge. Also, maker marks on the back of badges do not "authenticate" them as they were often reproduced. Most authentic badges have no markings whatsoever on the back but not all. Also, Authentic 6 point star badges from the "early" period tended to have a raised number in the center with copper color. NOT an absolute but generally true.

The one thing that I can say that is absolute? Authentic badges do not rust.

Murph

first-model · #9 01-08-2021, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Projectman

I have included a picture of the gun with a El Paso Policeman's badge, but don't have documentation tying the two items together. Any hints of where I should start? I reached out to the El Paso Historical Society years ago but they weren't any help.

Here's a website for a guy that apparently collects Schwaab badges. He may know more about this badge than we do.

Value of Antique Badge with Maker’s Mark: ‘SCHWAAB S & S CO.’ | Badge Values

mike

BMur · #10 01-08-2021, 05:56 PM

I'm not trying to upset anyone ok?

I actually researched Schwaab Stamp & Seal Co. many moons ago as part of badge research for a Hartford , Ct. Colt Police 32 cal issued gun in my collection from circa 1898. I have all documents to prove it is authentic. An authentic Police Badge came with the gun and I wasn't certain that it was real. So I dove into the research and learned a lot about how to tell real from Reproduction and Souvenir type badges.

The problem with this company is that they actually cranked out tens of thousands of Souvenirs... Often you can find badges manufactured by this company beginning in about 1888 for Firemans Fund events, Major producer of Souvenirs during the Worlds Fairs (MANY) and also and this is very important?

The Cowboys Conventions of the late 1890's in TEXAS of all places in which they manufactured Souvenir "Marshall" badges etc

So, even though this may indeed be an Antique badge?
Odds are that it's not a REAL badge. It's an Antique Souvenir... If someone was to tell me that this is Authentic? I would want rock solid proof since they made Tens of Thousands of Reproduction Souvenirs! and back then? They were quality made. So after 100 plus years? They look real!

This is exactly why I never started collecting them. Extremely difficult to tell unless they follow the exact same pattern/pin/material/markings that are often unique to Law Enforcement badges. Authentic badges were actually specially made and have very unique markings but you have to do some serious research.

Again, real badges do not rust most were made of early term German Silver/ Gilt Brass often plated.

Also, since this company wasn't established as the Schwaab Stamp & Seal Co until 1888? The Number 1 Smith & Wesson could not be related to this much later and likely Souvenir badge.

Murph

glowe · #11 01-08-2021, 05:58 PM

Welcome! There are a couple on WorthPoint that are similar to yours. One stated it came from the 1890s. My suggestion is to contact the El Paso Police Department and send them the images you have. Chances are that someone may know about your badge.

Description includes the following: Antique 1890's, 3-1/4 inch nickel 6 point star , wire pin saddle cover, not maker marked.