Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Smith & Wesson Revolvers > S&W Antiques
o

Notices

S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-07-2021, 06:03 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 2,106
Likes: 1,154
Liked 1,383 Times in 835 Posts
Red face A newbie-type question...

Regarding antique firearms, in general: I'm told there are various classes of antiques, not to be confused with the NRA grading system (good-bad-indifferent, % of finish, etc.).

For example, a gun might be described as being "collector grade" vs. "shooter grade"... A Model 19 (no dash) N.I.B. is certainly different from one that has been carried and shot extensively. With antiques, what are the real discriminating factors? Replacement (reproduction?) parts (a hammer vs. a screw or spring) vs. "original"?

Obviously to be a shooter it needs to function mechanically (and, hopefully SAFELY as well!).

Thanks in advance for your kind consideration of this, my 1st post on this sub-forum!

Cheers!

Last edited by STORMINORMAN; 01-07-2021 at 06:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-07-2021, 06:19 PM
Kurusu's Avatar
Kurusu Kurusu is offline
Absent Comrade
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Portugal
Posts: 5,538
Likes: 39,612
Liked 18,061 Times in 4,567 Posts
Default

Rule of thumb. Independently from it's condition, you can only consider an antique gun anything manufactured before the XXth Century
__________________
Expect the unexpected
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 01-07-2021, 06:37 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
SWCA Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pikeville, Tennessee
Posts: 6,025
Likes: 910
Liked 9,878 Times in 3,632 Posts
Default

As a suggestion, and I haven't read it for a while, but the Condition/Rating section of the SCSW does differentiate between condition definitions depending on the classification of the gun (Antique vs. the others), and if I recall correctly (and I may very well not) it breaks down newer guns in similar fashion----seems like I remember mention of pre-1920/25 items.

And if it seems as though I've used a lot of words, and said very little, it's because I have and apply my own sense of values as to what is or is not attractive/acceptable---never mind if others agree with me or not.

Ralph Tremaine
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 01-07-2021, 06:40 PM
first-model first-model is offline
SWCA Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 1,001
Liked 2,320 Times in 773 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN View Post
Regarding antique firearms, in general: I'm told there are various classes of antiques, not to be confused with the NRA grading system (good-bad-indifferent, % of finish, etc.).
Other than the BATFE's definition of an "antique firearm" (which can be seen here), I don't know of any objective "classes" for antique guns.

Outside of make and model, condition and originality are almost always the primary drivers of value in an antique firearm. It's common knowledge among collectors that a gun in its original worn condition will generally be worth more than the same gun that has been restored. Ditto for a gun with a part that was obviously replaced.

Of course, there's plenty of exceptions to this ... but a clean, original, unmolested example in its factory box is what most collectors are after.

Mike
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 01-07-2021, 06:43 PM
merl67 merl67 is offline
SWCA Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Northern Middle Tennessee
Posts: 2,898
Likes: 3,413
Liked 4,084 Times in 1,449 Posts
Default

As I understand it the NRA grading system is different for antique guns vs modern guns in other words an antique that graded fine on the antique scale might only grade as fair to good on the modern scale. The reason for this is the antique obviously being older is given a bit of slack due to its age. I have not looked at either scale in a while, but that was always my impression.
__________________
Randy
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 01-07-2021, 06:59 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 2,106
Likes: 1,154
Liked 1,383 Times in 835 Posts
Default

I'm told that documented manufacture BEFORE January 1, 1899 qualifies a firearm as an antique.

Will research into the SCSW info: Thanks Ralph!

I do sincerely appreciate the most informative and prompt responses.

Cheers!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 01-07-2021, 07:05 PM
OldRN OldRN is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 55
Likes: 147
Liked 137 Times in 31 Posts
Default

I’ve always had two categories I avoid. Wall-hangers, those that look ok but can’t be shot safely and paper-weights that are just that. The only example I have now is a paperweight. Anyone care to guess what it is? A mechanical marvel in its time and probably has some stories it could tell.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 89C42EEF-405D-4D82-9ED7-8E66C8CE62EE.jpg (89.1 KB, 82 views)
File Type: jpg 1A0D5410-D9E4-4C2D-B830-7C6C7B98B674.jpg (86.0 KB, 63 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 01-07-2021, 07:10 PM
Kurusu's Avatar
Kurusu Kurusu is offline
Absent Comrade
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Portugal
Posts: 5,538
Likes: 39,612
Liked 18,061 Times in 4,567 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldRN View Post
I’ve always had two categories I avoid. Wall-hangers, those that look ok but can’t be shot safely and paper-weights that are just that. The only example I have now is a paperweight. Anyone care to guess what it is? A mechanical marvel in its time and probably has some stories it could tell.
Merwin Hulbert & CO.

At least used to be.
__________________
Expect the unexpected
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 01-07-2021, 07:49 PM
OldRN OldRN is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 55
Likes: 147
Liked 137 Times in 31 Posts
Default

I’m impressed! Yep, a Merlin Hulbert. A First Model “Frontier” in 44-40. They were S&W’s biggest overseas contract competitor in the 1870-80’s. Only reason I have it is I walked into a shop I frequent, owner asked what he could do for me, I said I’d take whatever was free and he handed it to me.

Last edited by OldRN; 01-07-2021 at 07:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 01-07-2021, 08:18 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 2,106
Likes: 1,154
Liked 1,383 Times in 835 Posts
Exclamation

And, in the words of an ex-PDX furniture store icon, Tom Peterson...

"Free is a very good price!"

Cheers!

P.S. How the Merwin & Hulbert could have been anyone's overseas contract competitor is a mystery to me. Guess I need to investigate further?

Last edited by STORMINORMAN; 01-08-2021 at 12:19 AM. Reason: That's "-son", son: not -sen!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-07-2021, 08:35 PM
iby iby is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 929
Likes: 2,046
Liked 828 Times in 334 Posts
Wink merwin

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldRN View Post
I’m impressed! Yep, a Merlin Hulbert. A First Model “Frontier” in 44-40. They were S&W’s biggest overseas contract competitor in the 1870-80’s. Only reason I have it is I walked into a shop I frequent, owner asked what he could do for me, I said I’d take whatever was free and he handed it to me.
IMO it's more likely a Second Model Frontier Army.
Or, used to be
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old 01-07-2021, 08:47 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,845
Likes: 1,779
Liked 4,509 Times in 1,657 Posts
Default Antique Parts

Well,
That's one area that seems to be zooming. Antique parts. I honestly don't know why folks think an antique gun like this Merwin has little value? It's amazing to me. FREE?

Murph
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 01-07-2021, 09:05 PM
Kurusu's Avatar
Kurusu Kurusu is offline
Absent Comrade
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Portugal
Posts: 5,538
Likes: 39,612
Liked 18,061 Times in 4,567 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iby View Post
IMO it's more likely a Second Model Frontier Army.
Or, used to be
Agree on the second model.
__________________
Expect the unexpected
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 01-07-2021, 10:51 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
SWCA Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,562
Likes: 4
Liked 2,494 Times in 1,296 Posts
Default

As Mike said: "Outside of make and model, condition and originality are almost always the primary drivers of value in an antique firearm." I'll elaborate a bit. Rarity or scarcity of the make or model will also drive the value. A variant of a model may drive the value into the stratosphere.
__________________
Mike Maher #283
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 01-08-2021, 03:46 PM
ammodave ammodave is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Niceville, Fl
Posts: 230
Likes: 8
Liked 62 Times in 36 Posts
Default

What's missing on the M&H other than the side plate and grips?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-08-2021, 05:31 PM
OldRN OldRN is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 55
Likes: 147
Liked 137 Times in 31 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ammodave View Post
What's missing on the M&H other than the side plate and grips?
I’ll go with the second model opinions, I’ve never run into anyone that knew anything about them.
Besides the grips and side plate, I think the hand is missing. The cylinder spins freely since the cylinder stop does not rise up. The barrel and cylinder are well and truly worn. The springs that are there, the hammer and cylinder gate seem to work fine. The gun still breaks down with a little effort. If I knew anyone who actually liked “Old West” relics or needed a Merwin Hulbert part, I’d cheerfully give it to them.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 697D68C0-3D70-4155-B6D2-CA6A130DE30E.jpg (73.7 KB, 22 views)

Last edited by OldRN; 01-08-2021 at 05:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 01-08-2021, 07:00 PM
merl67 merl67 is offline
SWCA Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Northern Middle Tennessee
Posts: 2,898
Likes: 3,413
Liked 4,084 Times in 1,449 Posts
Default

Years ago I wanted a 71/84 Mauser I didn't however at the time have the cash to buy a complete one. SARCO was selling parts guns from a South American stash of them so I ordered 3 (they were rough and cheap) one of them had a beautiful bore and a decent exterior. Took two stocks, and made one that was a trick found a few more parts on Fleabay it was so much fun I wound up building 3 more selling those paid for my one. These are the kind of projects I enjoy. If I had that one the hunt would be on lol...
__________________
Randy
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #18  
Old 01-08-2021, 07:05 PM
mrcvs mrcvs is offline
SWCA Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,777
Likes: 3,217
Liked 6,861 Times in 1,862 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iby View Post
IMO it's more likely a Second Model Frontier Army.
Or, used to be
And here's what it once would have looked.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20190915_095902.jpg (87.5 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg 20190915_095917.jpg (80.4 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg 20190915_100139.jpg (83.6 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg 20190915_100203.jpg (55.9 KB, 21 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #19  
Old 01-08-2021, 09:57 PM
opoefc opoefc is offline
Absent Comrade
US Veteran
SWCA Founding Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: San Diego, CA. USA
Posts: 10,536
Likes: 3,529
Liked 6,883 Times in 2,796 Posts
Default

Merwins were much better made guns ( Made by Hopkins & Allen ) than Colts or Smith & Wessons as the tolerances were tighter and they were very tough competitors. The posters "junk" Merwin is probaly worth a couple hundred dollars just as it sits now, for the parts that are still there. I have modified and used Merwin sideplates in the past to repair S&W Model 3s missing their side plate. Antique Merwins can hold their own in antique values in comparison with S&Ws, condition being equal. Ed
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #20  
Old 01-08-2021, 10:09 PM
ISCS Yoda's Avatar
ISCS Yoda ISCS Yoda is offline
US Veteran
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 8,386
Likes: 2,475
Liked 13,044 Times in 4,531 Posts
Default

Query - were the Merwin & Hulbert revolvers single or double action?

=======================================

Here's my sole antique left over after my 2018 fire. I paid ten bucks for it around 20 years ago. used it as a table decoration. That's what it still is but it has a new powder coated look!




Believe it or not the matching green grips are 2020 new! Some stuff is available if you know where to look or someone tells you!

Same game as long as we're here:

What do you think this "is/was"?
__________________
Come and take it!!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #21  
Old 01-09-2021, 01:19 AM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,845
Likes: 1,779
Liked 4,509 Times in 1,657 Posts
Default Merwins

I’m partial to the Pocket Army’s as well. Very heavy revolvers with the skull crusher birds head grip! What’s not to like? They chambered 3 different 44 Calibers that included Smith & Wesson’s Russian round.

Murph
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #22  
Old 01-09-2021, 10:09 AM
OldRN OldRN is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 55
Likes: 147
Liked 137 Times in 31 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
Merwins were much better made guns ( Made by Hopkins & Allen ) than Colts or Smith & Wessons as the tolerances were tighter and they were very tough competitors. The posters "junk" Merwin is probaly worth a couple hundred dollars just as it sits now, for the parts that are still there. I have modified and used Merwin sideplates in the past to repair S&W Model 3s missing their side plate. Antique Merwins can hold their own in antique values in comparison with S&Ws, condition being equal. Ed
Now you have me intrigued. Makes me think there might be someone who can use the parts. I could either give it as parts donor or use it towards funds to get a letter for my alleged post-Victory Marine contract .38
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-09-2021, 10:27 AM
first-model first-model is offline
SWCA Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 1,001
Liked 2,320 Times in 773 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldRN View Post
Now you have me intrigued. Makes me think there might be someone who can use the parts. I could either give it as parts donor or use it towards funds to get a letter for my alleged post-Victory Marine contract .38
Sell it and get what you can for it. Someone out there can undoubtedly use the parts, so you'll be doing them a favor. And since you'll be enriching their collection, you may as well get some proceeds to fund your post-Victory Marine contract .38.

Mike
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #24  
Old 01-09-2021, 04:25 PM
iby iby is offline
Member
A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question... A newbie-type question...  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 929
Likes: 2,046
Liked 828 Times in 334 Posts
Default merwin

The parts surely have value to the right person.
Ebay??
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question for attorney type people - NOT a legal question... Ματθιας The Lounge 23 06-13-2020 09:43 PM
Main spring question - short type vs long type tominboise S&W-Smithing 4 10-01-2019 03:08 PM
Chinese Type 56 Question Milton Firearms & Knives: Other Brands & General Gun Topics 1 04-10-2019 04:25 PM
Newbie member & newbie question WestTexFree Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 13 03-05-2017 07:30 PM
Model 2 Army Type 5 Question orangekayak S&W Antiques 8 01-03-2013 08:55 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:52 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)