Can someone help with what model and year this would be? S&W break top revolver US 41372
Thanks, Jerry

That is really skimpy info. Caliber? Barrel length? Details on any markings. S&W made top breaks for more than a few years. A photo would be VERY helpful.

There were only two US Military Top-Break revolver models that I can think of, the 44 American and the 45 Schofield, but neither the 44 American or Schofield serial number range went that high. How do you know that you own a Smith & Wesson? Look on the barrel for the caliber stamp, the top rib of the barrel for patent dates, and on the frame for a manufacturer's name. Lastly, most models of S&W top-breaks started with serial number "1", so each specific model had their own serial number ranges.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

That SN is in the range of the .38 Safety Hammerless 3rd model that was part of a batch of 100 Test Revolvers ordered by the US Army. They were blued with a 6 inch barrel.

Std. Catalog of Smith & Wesson lists the SN Range as 41,333-41,470.

Books

Does the gun in question actually say "Smith & Wesson" on it? Should be spelled out on the top barrel rib not on the side of the barrel as the caliber is marked there (if it's marked at all). And by any chance is the US on the grips? I have had people mistake guns from other makers for a S&W before, often due to the caliber markings. There have also been some foreign copies with markings designed to mislead the buyer into thinking they were buying a "name brand" gun and not a copy.

A coupe good pics would really help.

Later examples of some top-break models did have the SMITH & WESSON stamped on the left side of the barrel, but I do not know when the practice was started, but probably the early 1900s.

Also, as mentioned by Books, the OP's gun is quite likely an extremely rare 38 Safety, 2nd Model, one of the one-hundred guns tested but not accepted at military trials. I have read that many were ruined in testing, so only a handful exist today. The serial number listed by the OP makes it likely that the 38 Safety entered into military trials is what we are discussing here. The serial numbers for these revolvers selected within 41,333 to 41,470 range.

We badly need the OP to take photos and post here!!

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thanks guys, I have 33 guns (most Colt and S&W...and a FP-45 Liberator)) that my father collected. Most are military collectibles that I did not document very well. I will spend more time with them and take some pics soon.

Pics of that top break...

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That’s a rare one. It’s worth a lot! I think your father would want you to keep it.

Murph

.38 safety hammerless 2nd model. Premium for 5" barrel and that one looks like a 6" barrel Extremely rare and high premium. Looks like you will need to get a letter to confirm barrel length and originality. I like it.

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Everett Briggs
SWCA#3124

That does appear to be one of the Smith & Wesson 3rd model Safety Hammerless 38 cal. Army Test revolvers. (1 of 100).

Along with everyone else, I'd like to acquire it. (but I probably can't afford to give a fair price.)

Books

In this case a Letter is in order. As stated above, there were 100 revolvers submitted to the Army for testing and many were destroyed. The serial number range includes more than 100 units. I know of at least one fake, that was selling for good money, until Roy Jinks stepped in to say that it would NOT letter as part of this shipment.

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Mike Maher #283

follow up on this .38 Safety hammerless Army Test Revolver. 100 sold to US government. 41333-41470 worth about 10,000.00 Beware of fakes. Pg 99 of the S&W 4th edition.

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Everett Briggs
SWCA#3124

I honestly don't know how you could manufacture a convincing fake? Those serial numbers look exactly right to me on the grip frame. The matching numbers must also be on the barrel, barrel latch, cylinder, and frame and would also be "extremely" difficult to fake using very unique Smith & Wesson dies.
There is suppose to be a U.S. stamp on this example as well on the left side barrel lug. It is also listed a very early B]38 Safety Third Model[/B]". Therefore this is likely one of the first 6" barrels manufactured so the barrel would also have the earlier patent dates. The Photo the OP provided of the barrel address clearly shows the last patent date of 1885. Which is correct for an early barrel. How exactly does one fake that? Simple and basic examination would reveal any "FAKE" features.

A fake would be obvious in my opinion.




Murph

The fake is not obvious as there are other 6" barreled blue revolvers in the serial number range listed. The (fake) U.S. stamp at the hinge made it appear legitimate.

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Mike Maher #283

Mike,
So assuming you are right? Serial number range 41333-41470 allows for 137 guns. 100 of which were U.S. Army issue?

That leaves a maximum of 37 guns. How many of those 37 guns had the special order 6” barrel? In fact, how many have even survived?

That’s one rare FAKE! With an equally rare barrel length! In fact the fakes that would be in the correct serial number range would be rarer than the originals if I’m doing my basic math correctly. I’d sure like to see that one you mentioned and evaluate the die stamps.

U.S. stamps are also often faked but also Often obviously not original. It’s not easy to fake early die stamps. The vast majority of the time the font is way wrong, style is incorrect, or specific details of lettering does not match originals. Again, most of the time it’s obvious.

Murph

I don't know how many blue revolvers with 6" barrels are/were in those 37 extra serial numbered revolvers but the one that I WAS bidding on was a very good fake. The 'U.S.' stamp is possibly Times Roman, a simple typeface, but I've never researched it. As Roy stated "It will not letter.". I wondered if it could have been a production overrun that was never shipped to the Armory for testing and therefore wouldn't be listed in the factory shipping records.

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Mike Maher #283

See partial factory records below.

You can see that there was at least two separate shipments of guns to the US Army. April 31st & May 31st. Old records are often incomplete, unreadable, poorly documented by the original clerk, ( That happens a lot) missing, or destroyed for some reason. That’s why Research is always ongoing and never absolute. It’s possible the Army actually ordered more than 100 but for some reason it was not documented or the record was lost. Also, 100 test guns seems odd to me. The Navy records that I have researched usually mention much lower numbers for “test guns” followed by a somewhat larger number to supply a specific unit or duty station.

It’s possible that the gun You bid on was actually legit but the record of shipment was lost.

One thing is for certain. More research on this variation is needed. Military records should have something on these!

Murph

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"..but the record of shipment was lost." Roy Jinks (S&W Historian) is the keeper of these records on the shipments of these revolvers and many others. I trust his research when he says "It will not letter". I.E., nothing has been lost. Simply, the fake revolver was not shipped to the Armory.

There is an existing Government record of the trials and the results of the trials with descriptions of the revolver tests and the outcome. It is a very interesting read as these trials were brutal and it's a wonder that any of these S&W, U.S. Test Revolvers exist today.

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Mike Maher #283

If the serial number range was 1-100, Would you have 100 guns, or 99?
Check your math.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I'm not telling you what to do, believe me, if it were mine, and I wish it was, I'd letter it!

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Don Mundell

Say Peacekeeper4,

Can you also post a close up of the U.S. stamp that should be located on the left side barrel lug right next to the pivot joint?

Thanks

Murph

McHenry & Roper's book Smith & Wesson Handguns offers a review of those military trials starting on page 74. The book has been reprinted and that paperback is available for under $13.00 or Kindle downloads are $2.00.

It seems that everyone is assuming your gun is fake?? I would seek out advice and get a detailed inspection of the gun by someone qualified to determine that fact. Spend the money to get it authenticated. The value of a US marked 38 Safety to collectors will easily take care of any money spent on the gun.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thank you for your responses! Being new to this, how do I get this lettered (authenticated). I also have a couple of Victory revolvers, a M13 Snub, and a Mod 1917.

Here you go. Follow the link to the letter request form.

Factory Letter – Smith & Wesson Collectors Association

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

It seems that everyone is assuming your gun is fake?? I would seek out advice and get a detailed inspection of the gun by someone qualified to determine that fact. Spend the money to get it authenticated. The value of a US marked 38 Safety to collectors will easily take care of any money spent on the gun.[/QUOTE]
Gary
I for one am not saying it's a fake. I wish it were in my stable.

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Don Mundell

"I for one am not saying it's a fake." Me either. I think it's worth lettering as "The value of a US marked 38 Safety to collectors will easily take care of any money spent on the gun.". And, yes McHenry & Roper is worth reading.

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Mike Maher #283

With all due respect, there are 100 guns. The serial number range IS NOT 1-100.

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Don Mundell

I think there is no question that it’s a rare and early 6” barrel variation that falls in the correct serial number range for the U.S. Army issue.

The question is “ IS IT A U. S. ARMY ISSUE”. Given the condition of the gun the U.S. Stamp should still be there! IS IT? CAN WE SEE IT? It would help to evaluate this rare piece. Authentic stamps are very unique.

The condition of this gun is actually extremely good for one of these. Those that letter that I have seen are normally well worn!

Murph

Thanks, sent it in the mail today!

As far as the US stamp, it is there on the left side above the trigger assembly...I would have to dig it out of the safe to take a better pic, but it can be seen in the orig pic that I took.
I know you can not blow up the photo to see it, but I circled the location.

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"..but I circled the location." This letter will be very interesting as that is not the 'normal' location of the U.S. stamp. The revolver looks correct in every way but the markings.

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Mike Maher #283

Peacekeeper4,

See the yellow arrow? That’s where the stamp is normally found. However, yours is an earlier serial number so who knows.

If you can’t take a good close up of the U.S. stamp? Can you draw a picture of the letters on a white piece of paper very large and photo that?

See my drawing? Do they look like that?

If not? What do they look like?

Thanks,

Murph

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It's not fair to just call them test guns?

It was actually designed to replace the Colt Single Action Army revolver. Lots of complaints by the Cavalry at that time. A comparison was performed with the new Colt 1889 Navy. 100 of the Colt and 100 of the Smith & Wesson revolver were issued to the 1st, 3rd, 6th, 8th, and 9th Cavalries.

All of these guns went through the Springfield Armory and letter as such. They were all marked U.S. in a very specific location. Even the Schofields were marked (Stamped) in the same place. So, this will be more than odd if it letters.

Still wondering if the numbers match on this one? Especially the barrel number???? By far the most common issue on the top breaks is "A REPLACED BARREL". Especially on the early long barrel examples.

If you look closely, the barrel patina does not match the frame patina. Please look at the barrel number....

I'm also not liking something else that I will mention after the OP looks at the barrel number.

Murph

If it letters as part of the 100 revolvers sent to the Armory then the difference in the U.S. mark location will be narrowed down to five serial numbers. All these that I've seen have the U.S. on the barrel lug.

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Mike Maher #283

Mike, you would have 100 guns. Similarly, if you had guns numbered 1-10 you would have 10 guns, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.

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James Redfield
LM #497

I have all the numbers of the test guns, there are 100.

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Don Mundell

Don,
You have the numbers? Is this gun in the mix?

Murph

OK, I stand corrected, the US marking IS indeed where you said it would be...before I was just trying to find it from the (bad) pics I took. Also, I think the patina on the gun is consistent between the frame and barrel. I should take it out to take better pics, it is just a pita to get it back out of the safe (its buried in there, lol)

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Peacekeeper4,
Just to be clear, I was only trying to help you with "basic" research and inspection of your rare collectable. It's what research is all about. It helps you to "confirm" authenticity. With this additional information that you have now provided regarding the U.S. stamp in both location and font. I am now convinced it's authentic. Congratulations to you and your father's legacy. He obviously did his homework.


Murph

Murph, I appreciate all the help, that is why I came here.

I had no idea what this was (other than a break top S&W). I knew it was a military collectable (that's all my Dad collected), but had no idea of what model, etc...

Thanks to all on this thread. I did send out the request to get the weapon 'lettered', so we will see what Dr Jinks says...

Jerry

Hello fellow collectors, I finally got my letter from Dr. Jinks today. This S&W did indeed letter as one of the "Special U.S. Government Contract" revolvers that were shipped to Springfield Armory.

YES! That is great as many, many were destroyed in testing by the U.S. Army. I have seen less than 10 legitimate examples in any working condition that have survived. These 'tests' were brutal and the revolvers that were sold to the public after the tests were operational at best. No guarantee.

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Mike Maher #283

Don't ya just love happy endings...got something in my eye have to go find a tissue...congrats to the OP !

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Randy

I was very glad when I looked up the records! I even wrote "BINGO" on the request form for Roy.

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Don Mundell

Don you have got to have one of the coolest jobs around....

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Randy

And that is why we send off for letters. Most of the time they come back as being shipped to M. W. Robinson. But sometimes.....

Books

I've owned a couple of these US Safety's over the yrs and all were about in the same condition as the posters. Bill Mair had the best condition one I ever say and It was aout a 50% blue gun. They most all got heavy use, I think Bill paid about $10K for it, probably 20 yrs ago.. Usual price range seems to be in the $5K - $6.5K range whenever they come to market. The exact serial numbers of the guns received by the Army should be in the Natinal Archived as they would have been recorded by the Arsenal or Armory receiving the shipments. Remember, when Roy says "It won't letter", he's not saying it's not real, just that he can't find a shipping record in the archives he has. I've had more than one S&W that got that response from Roy, and historians befor him, but more digging resulted in finding the missing information, especially if the gun was a special order with a special finish or treatment. Ed