A pair of .22 Third Model Single Shot Perfected Pistols

mrcvs · #1 02-24-2021, 04:42 PM

I pulled these out and decided to photograph them, No 6559 and No 9924. 6559 shipped in 1913; 9924 in 1922. A few variations evident. 6559 has larger “Trade Mark” and logo on right side, 9924 has smaller “Trade Mark” and logo on left side. “22LONG RIFLE CTG” on left side of barrel of 6559 and nothing on right side of barrel of 6559. “22LONG RIFLE CTG” on right side of barrel of 9924 and “SMITH & WESSON “ on left side of the barrel.

mrcvs · #2 02-24-2021, 04:44 PM

And more photographs...

Borderboss · #3 02-24-2021, 06:15 PM

Thanks for sharing this great info. I love the info from Roy about the Olympic Barrel. It sounds like it was intended to have the round pressed hard into the rifling. I would think that would spike pressures quite a bit.

Vidd · #4 02-24-2021, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

And more photographs...

Strange my third model perfected serial 5432 has small logo on left and also cartridge marking on left side pistol shiped March 20th 1912

Vidd · #5 02-24-2021, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

I pulled these out and decided to photograph them, No 6559 and No 9924. 6559 shipped in 1913; 9924 in 1922. A few variations evident. 6559 has larger “Trade Mark” and logo on right side, 9924 has smaller “Trade Mark” and logo on left side. “22LONG RIFLE CTG” on left side of barrel of 6559 and nothing on right side of barrel of 6559. “22LONG RIFLE CTG” on right side of barrel of 9924 and “SMITH & WESSON “ on left side of the barrel.

Question do both guns have matching serial numbers on frame Barrel and latch assembly

mrcvs · #6 02-24-2021, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vidd

Question do both guns have matching serial numbers on frame Barrel and latch assembly

Yes, I wouldn’t own them otherwise.

mmaher94087 · #7 02-24-2021, 11:00 PM

Vidd, have you lettered your pistol? I ask because the hammer on your pistol has been lightened considerably from the factory examples that mrcvs has shown. Where's Ralph??

ol777gunnerz · #8 02-25-2021, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

Vidd, have you lettered your pistol? I ask because the hammer on your pistol has been lightened considerably from the factory examples that mrcvs has shown. Where's Ralph??

I believe this is his pistol that has an H M Pope barrel [sleeved with Olympic chamber & left hand twist rifling], notice the small screw trigger stop which was also a trademark of Pope's work.

mrcvs · #9 02-25-2021, 08:37 AM

I used to think that the Smith & Wesson .22 Third Model Perfected Single Shot pistol is of the highest quality and cannot be beat. That was the case until I purchased a Colt Camp Perry pistol last year.

Smith & Wesson pistols are of the highest quality, but, surprisingly, can be beat by the Camp Perry pistol. Which is an amazing feat for Colt as, hands down, Smith & Wesson produced a better quality revolver in most, if not all cases. For example, the New Model No 3 is clearly superior to the Colt Single Action Army, both in the general design and the quality of craftsmanship.

Nonetheless, for comparison, photographs of the Colt Camp Perry pistol are attached.

Borderboss · #10 02-25-2021, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

I used to think that the Smith & Wesson .22 Third Model Perfected Single Shot pistol is of the highest quality and cannot be beat. That was the case until I purchased a Colt Camp Perry pistol last year.

Smith & Wesson pistols are of the highest quality, but, surprisingly, can be beat by the Camp Perry pistol. Which is an amazing feat for Colt as, hands down, Smith & Wesson produced a better quality revolver in most, if not all cases. For example, the New Model No 3 is clearly superior to the Colt Single Action Army, both in the general design and the quality of craftsmanship.

Nonetheless, for comparison, photographs of the Colt Camp Perry pistol are attached.

Have you shot the two side by side to see which is more accurate? I would expect the S&W to be more accurate because it eliminates the cylinder gap.

mrcvs · #11 02-25-2021, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borderboss

Have you shot the two side by side to see which is more accurate? I would expect the S&W to be more accurate because it eliminates the cylinder gap.

I have never fired the Colt Camp Perry Model pistol. Other than at the factory when proofed, I have reason to believe it is unfired.

Borderboss · #12 02-25-2021, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

I have never fired the Colt Camp Perry Model pistol. Other than at the factory when proofed, I have reason to believe it is unfired.

Yikes, then definitely don't fire it!

ol777gunnerz · #13 02-25-2021, 12:18 PM

Yes the Camp Perry's are nice & accurate, but kind of a pain to shoot, having to perform 3 different tasks to extract the spent cartridge. Owning all 3 examples of the S&W revolver framed single shots, formerly owned a Camp Perry, the H&R USRA model is hands down the highest quality, actually ejects the spent rnd. several ft., & incorporates many design improvements by Walter Roper, has his style of large grips, & an "R" stamped on each during his time at H&R. He was told to make them the finest target pistol made, given an unlimited budget, it is estimated they spent $150 in total for each one produced, selling them for $35-45 each over the yrs of production.

mrcvs · #14 02-25-2021, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borderboss

Yikes, then definitely don't fire it!

The goal is to eventually find another one in lesser condition at a reasonable price and shoot that one.

The one I own was owned by a Senator from Connecticut who was elected shortly after this revolver was produced. He was friends with Herbert Hoover and rented President Hoover’s former DC residence from him when Hoover was in the White House. I had high hopes this one might have actually shipped to Hoover to give to Senator Walcott, but no such luck. It shipped to a Colt plant employee.

kennyb · #15 02-25-2021, 04:58 PM

I purchased a like S&W about a year ago.Guess I need to remove it from the safe and take a closer look

squawberryman · #16 02-25-2021, 05:16 PM

Currently I own a pair. They ARE pre wars. Someday I'll have a pre war revolver. The firing pin broke on one and I had Andy Horvath make a new one.

thelagoonloon · #17 02-25-2021, 05:52 PM

I have a 2nd Model 8" barrel Serial 4048. Front sight marked W.F. Sherad Tacoma Wash. Just moved and can't get to it for pictures - sorry. I am not a collector. Just like guns. Do I have something special?

series guy · #18 02-25-2021, 06:27 PM

I have 8035 and it's definitely one of my favorites.

RubEric · #19 02-25-2021, 06:43 PM

No. 788x, Lettered:

Vidd · #20 02-25-2021, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

Vidd, have you lettered your pistol? I ask because the hammer on your pistol has been lightened considerably from the factory examples that mrcvs has shown. Where's Ralph??

Yes see picks

Vidd · #21 02-25-2021, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by series guy

I have 8035 and it's definitely one of my favorites.

Very nice example I see large logo on right side

Vidd · #22 02-25-2021, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RubEric

No. 788x, Lettered:

Another nice example with logo on right side

Vidd · #23 02-25-2021, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vidd

Question do both guns have matching serial numbers on frame Barrel and latch assembly

I would think serial number 9942 would be large logo on right side not small logo on left?

ol777gunnerz · #24 02-25-2021, 07:29 PM

Another H M Pope barreled & modified with sights apparently for an older shooter [like me], trigger stop & lead weight inside the frame under the grips.

mfholmes · #25 02-25-2021, 08:10 PM

I know I've posted info about this in an earlier post, but I just couldn't resist adding this to the record in this post. This is an example of what someone came up with after seeing the .22 Third Model Target and then finding some parts from a Colt Camp Perry. Very interesting take on a Schofield that someone didn't have a use for. I present to you (

) Schofield Camp Perry . . . .

0le · #26 02-26-2021, 12:26 AM

Quote:

I purchased a like S&W about a year ago.Guess I need to remove it from the safe and take a closer look

KennyB, I didn't see anyone respond directly to your post. My thoughts, you can read what other owners think of their pistols, and compare to yours. What accuracy can be expected from these arms?

t.hulbert · #27 02-26-2021, 11:38 AM

im looking for trigger guard for one of these!!!! no of any?

mrcvs · #28 02-26-2021, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippyjon Jones

Very nice single shots everyone!!!

#9607 shipped 1921 with 10" Olympic barrel, logo on left side and grips w/o medallions:

Yours, No 9607 has the S & W logo of the same style as mine on the left side, as well as “Smith & Wesson” on the left side of the barrel, and “22 LONG RIFLE CTG” on the right side of the barrel. Just the same as mine does, No 9924.

Of course, two examples does not a survey make, but it seems the identical markings on pistols that shipped about the same time, 1921 and 1922, strongly suggests that the markings depict as it was then, as just the three markings are subject to a wide array of variations and locations, at least potentially so.

Interestingly, the stocks on mine contain medallions, whereas the stocks on this pistol, numbered 317 previous to mine, contain non medallion stocks. Of course, Smith & Wesson never shipped sequentially by serial number, but, in this case, mine, being serially numbered later than this gun, also shipped later.

So, the question is, were pistols such as these randomly assembled out of sequence, which could explain why mine, which has a later serial number and ship date, has earlier style stocks, than this one, with an earlier serial number and ship date and later style stocks.

Of course, one or both sets of stocks on one or both of these pistols may have been switched with a different set of stocks at a later date, but this is not definitive, of course.

Thoughts?

HoundDog316 · #29 02-26-2021, 05:22 PM

[IMG]file:///D:/XFER%20Photos/DSC_0009.JPG[/IMG]
Mine is S/N 974X, ship date unknown. It has the Olympic barrel, and non-medallion stocks. And they have a different shape than those of Skippyjon. There is no pencil S/N on the stocks either, but I have no reason to believe that they are not original. Otherwise same markings--small logo on left side, nothing on right side, as well as “SMITH & WESSON” on the left side of the barrel, and “22 LONG RIFLE CTG” on the right side of the barrel. Also has patent line on top rib. Anyone have a ballpark as to the value?

HoundDog316 · #30 02-26-2021, 05:27 PM

Hopefully the picture shows up this time.

RGNewell · #31 02-26-2021, 06:05 PM

Here is my 2nd model 8" nickel, I have a first model 8" nickel on the way to me.

Vidd · #32 02-26-2021, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

Yours, No 9607 has the S & W logo of the same style as mine on the left side, as well as “Smith & Wesson” on the left side of the barrel, and “22 LONG RIFLE CTG” on the right side of the barrel. Just the same as mine does, No 9924.

Of course, two examples does not a survey make, but it seems the identical markings on pistols that shipped about the same time, 1921 and 1922, strongly suggests that the markings depict as it was then, as just the three markings are subject to a wide array of variations and locations, at least potentially so.

Interestingly, the stocks on mine contain medallions, whereas the stocks on this pistol, numbered 317 previous to mine, contain non medallion stocks. Of course, Smith & Wesson never shipped sequentially by serial number, but, in this case, mine, being serially numbered later than this gun, also shipped later.

So, the question is, were pistols such as these randomly assembled out of sequence, which could explain why mine, which has a later serial number and ship date, has earlier style stocks, than this one, with an earlier serial number and ship date and later style stocks.

Of course, one or both sets of stocks on one or both of these pistols may have been switched with a different set of stocks at a later date, but this is not definitive, of course.

Thoughts?

Okay here goes my only thought .let's say a thousand frames stamped had the small logo done on the left side. Weren't serialized until the gun was put together only way to explain low number and high number serials I believe the same goes for the barrels stamped different times serial numbers put on them when assembled

ol777gunnerz · #33 02-27-2021, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippyjon Jones

To add, your observations are spot on. Wish I could post larger res photos but you saw them well even small like this. Here's the top of the barrel, assuming all of them have the same notice there:

Nope, the other version of 3rd Model barrels have a single line address.

mrcvs · #34 02-27-2021, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ol777gunnerz

Nope, the other version of 3rd Model barrels have a single line address.

I’ll have to look at my pair when I’m home later today, and will post photographs. I assumed the barrel address would be uniform throughout production but, maybe not.

PALADIN85020 · #35 02-27-2021, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borderboss

Have you shot the two side by side to see which is more accurate? I would expect the S&W to be more accurate because it eliminates the cylinder gap.

The Colt Camp Perry did not have a cylinder gap. The piece that substitutes for the cylinder is an integral part of the barrel, and when it swivels out for loading, the barrel does also. See the pics below of one shipped in 1927, compared to my Perfected target pistol, shipped in March 1914.

John

Borderboss · #36 02-27-2021, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PALADIN85020

The Colt Camp Perry did not have a cylinder gap. The piece that substitutes for the cylinder is an integral part of the barrel, and when it swivels out for loading, the barrel does also. See the pics below of one shipped in 1927, compared to my Perfected target pistol, shipped in March 2014.

John

Thanks for the explanation. That's why I love threads like this. I learn a lot.

LT7d103 · #37 02-27-2021, 02:42 PM

Thank you gentlemen for the interesting history lesson on pistols I had no knowledge of.

mrcvs · #38 02-27-2021, 05:52 PM

Well, I’ll be darned! I never paid close attention to the barrel addresses and, sure enough, they differ! The first photograph is the one line, no patent dates, barrel address of No 6559, this pistol having shipped in 1913. The second photograph depicts the 2 line barrel address, with patent dates, of No 9924, this pistol having shipped in 1922. This is why it’s fun to have duplicates of the same firearm as it’s the easiest way to identify variations. Again, all serial numbered components of each pistol are matching.

Vidd · #39 02-27-2021, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

Well, I’ll be darned! I never paid close attention to the barrel addresses and, sure enough, they differ! The first photograph is the one line, no patent dates, barrel address of No 6559, this pistol having shipped in 1913. The second photograph depicts the 2 line barrel address, with patent dates, of No 9924, this pistol having shipped in 1922. This is why it’s fun to have duplicates of the same firearm as it’s the easiest way to identify variations. Again, all serial numbered components of each pistol are matching.

Okay for argument's sake. let's call one line Barrel first gen and left side logo frame first gen then two line address 2nd gen. right side logo second gen .we seem to know Smith & Wesson kind of put all their parts in one bin when the Builder made the weapon they grab the new 2nd gen frame. and matched with first gen Barrel then serialized when assembled only thing that makes sense to me

ol777gunnerz · #40 02-28-2021, 12:04 PM

By far the easiest to open, load, shoot, & has an actual ejector which throws the spent round several feet, is the H&R USRA Model 195 single shot 22lr target pistol. Mine as shown is from the tail-end of production with all the latest improvements made by Walter Roper. Over the yrs. with all of the different barrels, triggers, hammers, grips, etc. it is estimated only as many as seven of them are exactly alike.

mrcvs · #41 03-28-2021, 09:28 PM

I should stress that all 3 of these Single Shot Third Model Perfected have all matching numbers. The two already discussed will be complemented by a third one in a few weeks, and I am stunned!!! to discover that this third one, which shipped in 1911, is of yet a third variation with regards to the Smith & Wesson logo location and the type and location of barrel markings. To recap & introduce a third variation:

No 5034, shipped Dec 1911, small S & W logo & Trademark on left side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG on left side of barrel; barrel address and markings on right side, if any, TBD.

No 6559, shipped February 1913, large S & W logo & Trademark on right side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG on left side of barrel, one line no patent dates barrel address

No 9924, shipped April 1922, small S & W logo & Trademark on left side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG on right side of barrel, and Smith & Wesson on left side of barrel, 2 line barrel address with patents.

So, based on shipping dates, you have a small logo and trademark on the left side, and then it migrates to the right side and is larger, then back to the left side.

In summary:

Ship date 1911, small logo left side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG left side;
Ship date 1913, large logo right side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG left side
Ship date 1922, small logo left side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG right side

More information to be provided in a few weeks...

Vidd · #42 04-02-2021, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

I should stress that all 3 of these Single Shot Third Model Perfected have all matching numbers. The two already discussed will be complemented by a third one in a few weeks, and I am stunned!!! to discover that this third one, which shipped in 1911, is of yet a third variation with regards to the Smith & Wesson logo location and the type and location of barrel markings. To recap & introduce a third variation:

No 5034, shipped Dec 1911, small S & W logo & Trademark on left side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG on left side of barrel; barrel address and markings on right side, if any, TBD.

No 6559, shipped February 1913, large S & W logo & Trademark on right side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG on left side of barrel, one line no patent dates barrel address

No 9924, shipped April 1922, small S & W logo & Trademark on left side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG on right side of barrel, and Smith & Wesson on left side of barrel, 2 line barrel address with patents.

So, based on shipping dates, you have a small logo and trademark on the left side, and then it migrates to the right side and is larger, then back to the left side.

In summary:

Ship date 1911, small logo left side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG left side;
Ship date 1913, large logo right side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG left side
Ship date 1922, small logo left side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG right side

More information to be provided in a few weeks...

boggles the mind doesn't it we're all learning something new

ol777gunnerz · #43 04-04-2021, 08:27 AM

Smith & Wesson back in the day would literally sell & ship a revolver or pistol to anyone, even other gun companies. I own this six inch barreled Model of 91 single shot 32 cal. pistol. It shipped to Folsum Arms, the largest manufacturer of shotguns [their own & store brands] in the U S A at that time, but did dabble in handguns & rifles. The left ear, opposite side of the latch has a "C" stamped in it, Roy Jinks says the only ones he has seen were in cased sets, so maybe they sold Folsum this one minus any other barrels with the same serial number, as cased sets were not selling nearly as well as planned?

mrcvs · #44 04-18-2021, 11:21 AM

And number 5034 arrived, shipped December 1911. This one also has a one line barrel address, no markings on right side, confirmed all matching numbers. I’m particularly pleased to own this one as it has condition, it’s early, AND...

mrcvs · #45 04-18-2021, 11:23 AM

...it has a checkered trigger which appears factory and is particularly rare on ANY Smith & Wesson.

ol777gunnerz · #46 04-18-2021, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

...it has a checkered trigger which appears factory and is particularly rare on ANY Smith & Wesson.

I must say the checkering on the trigger is the nicest one I have seen. The Victor Wesson 3rd Model I own has a very nice grooved trigger, as shown. Anyone ever see a grooved trigger on one of these?

mrcvs · #47 04-16-2022, 08:56 PM

So, I had identified these variations, using a very small sample size:

“In summary:

Ship date 1911, small logo left side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG left side;
Ship date 1913, large logo right side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG left side
Ship date 1922, small logo left side, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG right side.”

And here’s a fourth variation, correct for the immediate post WWI era, shipped 1919: NO LOGO, 22 LONG RIFLE CTG right side, “SMITH & WESSON” left side of barrel.