Does the S&W 44 DA and Frontier have a rebounding hammer or does one have to place the hammer in the "safety" notch before opening, like the earlier single action 44's? I have a rather nice one and it has neither feature. Thanks

Page 113 of Mr. Jinks book:
A rebounding hammer was patented by D. B. Wesson and James H. Bullard on December 18, 1877.
The rebounding hammer was incorporated in the .32 Single Action centerfire.

For some reason the large frame double actions did not have a rebounding hammer. I read somewhere that Smith and Wesson did not like how the feature impacted the action. They claimed the action was smoother without that feature.

Why they incorporated it in the little 32 SA cf and not the SA 38’s or 44’s is beyond me.

Murph

That's also why S&W did not put the rebounding hammer feature on the New Model #3 target revolvers so you could have a smoother let-off.
Gwyn

Well, I took the cover off and the hammer only has a full cock notch. There are no remains of it ever having a safety notch.

My DA 44's safety notch, when I bought it, had worn down so much that it was unsafe until I had it fixed. It should have a safety notch but even when they were in general use I would have kept an empty chamber under the hammer.
Gwyn

Yeah, I used the term "safety" notch for want of another name. Thanks to all.

I have a 44 DA Frontier in front of me that only has full cock notch, serial number 4671, that shipped from the factory in 1891.

NOTE: See post 17, as this revolver has a half-cock notch that does not engage until the hammer is fully at rest against the frame.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

My 6" 44 DA (serial 339xx) has the safety notch, as do all my DA top breaks (32 and 38). On these revolvers, if you close the cylinder loaded with the hammer down, the protruding hammer nose can score the rear of the cartridge (and possibly the primer ). I'm wondering if those that apparently did not ship with safety notches have rebounding hammers, as it seems you would need one or the other for safety reasons.

What's not clear to me on the 44DA is how the cylinder should behave when the hammer is in the safety notch position. On mine, the forward cylinder stop does retract slightly, but not enough to allow free rotation of the cylinder.

My 4" factory refurbished .44 D.A. does not have a half cock, hammer nose protrudes through the frame. It has a certain degree of vagueness when brought to full cock, there is no positive click or feel in any way, there is a certain degree of clarity in that all of the operations come to a complete stop, all movement of the cylinder ends. Bring it to full cock and trust it stays, it has never slipped or scared me by not staying in full cock. I have made up my mind that if the piece was fully loaded I would never bring it to full cock unless meant to fire and only do so while aimed in the direction of its intended discharge...I do not consider this a detriment because there would be only one reason the bring this revolver to full cock while loaded, that would be to shoot a target.

I have had at least half a dozen .44 Double Actions and they all had a notch to clear the hammer nose from the back of the cartridge, and none had a rebounding hammer. I have only seen the rebounding hammer on the No. 3 New Models.

Could someone (and i know i'm asking a lot) post a pic of where there hammer is when in the loading/safety notch? And does the cylinder free wheel when in that position? Thank you

Has anyone ever seen an exploded view drawing of these guns? I've searched the internet, but found nothing.

This is not a great image, but you can save it and enlarge it some.

Attached Images

44 DA.jpg (60.4 KB, 176 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I am not at home at the moment to have a look on my 44 DA. However by placing the hammer in the safety notch only removes the hammer nose/firing pin from projecting out of the recoil shield and resting on a cartridge primer. Tne cylinder will not free-wheel as the front cylinder locking catch is a part of the trigger. You also could pull the hammer back a bit more so that the cylinder starts to revolve and then let it down so that the front cylinder locking catch, fixed to the trigger, will enter the elongated slot so that the hammer nose is let down between the chambers/cartridger. This would be a safe way to load it if it is missing its safety notch if you have to. The back locking catch is spring loaded and only locks the cylinder when the hammer is at full cock and the trigger is back.
Gwyn

I am confused.
These can only be loaded when open (top break)
The first "click" is a safety position that also allows the action to open.
The 2 I have do not Freewhweel in safety.

Try this. Open the revolver in the usual way . When the extractor has snapped back turn the cylinder slightly so that the firing pin will be pointed between the chambers and then close the gun. The fixed cylinder forward catch on the trigger will capture the cylinder by entering the long slot between the proper cylinder locking slots and only allow it to revolve for about 40 to 50 degrees. It will not allow the cylinder to revolve so that the firing pin is poised above a loaded cartridge.
Gwyn

OK, I had to take one of my 44 DAs and did find a second notch in the hammer, BUT it did not work. The photos below show the hammer at rest and the face of the hammer is solid against the frame, so when pulled back, there is no half-cock until the hammer reaches full cock notch. As for opening the action without having a half-cock, this one functions just fine, without the firing pin touching anything as the action opens.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

The safety concern is that closing the cylinder with rounds loaded can cause the hammer nose to contact the case head and/or primer if one isn't careful about manually aligning the cylinder such that the hammer nose lands "between" rounds.

From your photographs it seems to me that a previous owner has re-filed the safety notch on the hammer and in dooing this has moved it a tiny bit forward so that it is of no use at all. Probably the original slot was buggered like the one on mine. However I had that one fixed by rewelding the slot and then recutting it in its proper place, that is a couple of millimeters or a 0.1 of an inch back.
A look on the second photo leads me to believe that a previous owner used a file to do this as the scear does not go to the top of the slot because the corner is slightly rounded.
Gwyn

I have always only loaded 5 rounds in these old top-breaks and left the empty chamber on top, so no issues closing the action, but could have the hammer welded to provide some added safety for others down the road.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary,
Out of curiosity I opened up my .44 DA Frontier (serial 11808) and am going to have to set up my camera as the internals are quite different mechanically from the one you pictured in post #17.
Do you have a later Frontier for comparison? Mine was shipped to Montgomery Wards, Chicago in 1900. I'm pretty sure I have its complete ownership history from sale to present.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

It works .

I think we are just seeing the result of 130 years of spring load on a safety notch causing the inevitable metal fatigue and failure.

Photo 1 is a low serial number 44WCF Frontier DA from the late 1880’s.

Photo 2 is a late Frontier 38/40 post 1905. Same identical mechanism but heavily worn and looks chipped at the safety notch.

Single Action Army revolvers as well as Colt Lightning’s often have damage to the first or safety notch. It’s probably the first thing to give up the ghost on these antiques.

Murph

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No, this is the last 44 DA I own. Mine shipped in 1890, 4 years after the Frontier started production, and was an early serial numbered gun, so assume that mechanical changes could have occurred during manufacture.

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Gary
SWCA 2515