Parts availability or?

Mbrgr1 · #1 04-06-2021, 08:38 AM

I asked on the the "smithing" forum, but got no response, so I'll try here.

On my new model 3 44 Russian I posted earlier, the part that the trigger rotates on that screws into the frame and holds the 3rd screw for the sideplate is damaged on the end and the plate screw is broken off.

Is there any chance of finding one, or is this strictly a gunsmith repair project?

The gun is pretty tight and functions, but it would be good to get it complete.

I ordered a factory letter to see where this old thing started it's life.

Thanks, M

glowe · #2 04-06-2021, 08:59 AM

I assume you meant hammer, not trigger?? I believe that is called a hammer stud. I have been looking for the cap screw that is missing from your picture for years without success and assume that it would be eve tougher to find the stud that it screws on to as well.

The cost to machine such a small part along with the cap screw would be very time consuming and, therefore very costly. You could check with Jack First, a company that recreates obsolete parts for many guns.

As for a gunsmith, I would contact a machine shop first, since most gunsmiths are not machinists. Anything can be reproduced by a competent machinist, but make sure you know the cost before proceeding.

Mbrgr1 · #3 04-06-2021, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I assume you meant hammer, not trigger?? I believe that is called a hammer stud. I have been looking for the cap screw that is missing from your picture for years without success and assume that it would be eve tougher to find the stud that it screws on to as well.

The cost to machine such a small part along with the cap screw would be very time consuming and, therefore very costly. You could check with Jack First, a company that recreates obsolete parts for many guns.

As for a gunsmith, I would contact a machine shop first, since most gunsmiths are not machinists. Anything can be reproduced by a competent machinist, but make sure you know the cost before proceeding.

Yes, hammer, sorry. The stud actually works fine, it's just the screw end and screw that is buggered up, maybe a little metal added and re-drilled would do the trick.

Thanks

mmaher94087 · #4 04-06-2021, 11:56 AM

To add to Gary's post and to clarify, I hope: the hammer stud has male threads on both ends. The larger end threads into the frame and the smaller threaded end fits the side plate and is held by a 'nut'. The nut is slotted for a screwdriver but it is not a screw.

Mbrgr1 · #5 04-06-2021, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

To add to Gary's post and to clarify, I hope: the hammer stud has male threads on both ends. The larger end threads into the frame and the smaller threaded end fits the side plate and is held by a 'nut'. The nut is slotted for a screwdriver but it is not a screw.

Pretty sure it's a screw, thanks.

BMur · #6 04-06-2021, 05:12 PM

M,
See photo's of a Single action plate and screw vs a double action plate and threaded cap.

Since you live in Oklahoma? You are very fortunate to have a "huge" resource for gun parts and "hands on gunsmiths". Even if you can't find a gunsmith? You can always try to look through a buddy's drawer/ desk/ shop full of screws? Or how about attending one of those awesome gun shows?

Even though we are talking pre-SAE standards? You can still find a screw that will fit. Here in California I'm on my own so I have to find "Antique" relic equipment that's worthless except for all the antique screws it has? Like relic cash registers and Typewriter's, etc at flea markets. I strip them of srews...I can't tell you how many time's I've fixed antiques from the relic parts.

Notice from my pile of tiny screws I easily found a matching screw for a Single action side plate. It's not an original. I had to cut it down and re-thread it with an antique die set? but it's easily do-able. If you look at both side plate photo's? It's not easy to tell which one is original and which is the replacement?

To me this is part of the fun collecting antique's? Minor Restoration projects.

Murph

deadin · #7 04-06-2021, 05:34 PM

I don't know I have ever seen a DA top-break S&W that had a screw instead of a slotted nut on the hammer stud. (Where did your schematic come from?)
From your pictures it appears that at sometime your hammer stud was shortened and drilled for a screw. (Which has now broken off)
You might be better off in trying to remove the broken screw from the stud and making a replacement screw. It won't be original, but, at least it should work. I have found that sometimes it is a real pain to remove the stud requiring a special tool to get it out. (Yours is already out, so that's a plus for working on it.)

Another choice would be to try to find a donor parts gun (junker) that still has the stud and cap nut. (Good luck with that......)

Mbrgr1 · #8 04-06-2021, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadin

I don't know I have ever seen a DA top-break S&W that had a screw instead of a slotted nut on the hammer stud. (Where did your schematic come from?)
From your pictures it appears that at sometime your hammer stud was shortened and drilled for a screw. (Which has now broken off)
You might be better off in trying to remove the broken screw from the stud and making a replacement screw. It won't be original, but, at least it should work. I have found that sometimes it is a real pain to remove the stud requiring a special tool to get it out. (Yours is already out, so that's a plus for working on it.)

Another choice would be to try to find a donor parts gun (junker) that still has the stud and cap nut. (Good luck with that......)

She is a single action, so I am assuming screw is true!

deadin · #9 04-06-2021, 08:12 PM

Quote:

She is a single action, so I am assuming screw is true!

Well, I sure put my foot in this one!!

My eyes saw the short barrel and my brain said .44 DA.

I still would make an effort to remove the broken screw from the stud. (Even to the point of drilling it out and re-threading to a screw that would fit and reshape the head.....)

Mbrgr1 · #10 04-06-2021, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadin

Well, I sure put my foot in this one!!

My eyes saw the short barrel and my brain said .44 DA.

I still would make an effort to remove the broken screw from the stud. (Even to the point of drilling it out and re-threading to a screw that would fit and reshape the head.....)

That is my next plan as a replacement seems unlikely. Thanks for the input. M

mmaher94087 · #11 04-06-2021, 11:57 PM

"On my new model 3 44 Russian.." If your ID is correct then you need a Hammer Stud and Hammer Stud Nut. If you have a .38 Single Action, 3rd Model then you still need a Hammer Stud and Nut. If you have a .38 SA, 1st Model (aka Baby Russian) or a .32 SA (aka New Model 1 1/2) then a screw is correct. Also, the .44 DA's of all calibers utilize the Hammer Stud Nut.

iby · #12 04-07-2021, 12:45 AM

Contact Col Charles Pate.
He has screws and some parts for the New Model 3
He is a member of this forum

kryten67 · #13 04-07-2021, 09:05 AM

Hello, I think I have the right part for your SA. Let me know if this will work?

regards

Mbrgr1 · #14 04-07-2021, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryten67

Hello, I think I have the right part for your SA. Let me know if this will work?

regards

That's it if it is the same size, I'd sure like to find out.

Thanks!

mmaher94087 · #15 04-07-2021, 11:46 AM

The parts in kryten67's photo are either .32 or .38 SA and are not the same size as the .44 SA.

glowe · #16 04-07-2021, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

"On my new model 3 44 Russian.." If your ID is correct then you need a Hammer Stud and Hammer Stud Nut. If you have a .38 Single Action, 3rd Model then you still need a Hammer Stud and Nut. If you have a .38 SA, 1st Model (aka Baby Russian) or a .32 SA (aka New Model 1 1/2) then a screw is correct. Also, the .44 DA's of all calibers utilize the Hammer Stud Nut.

Mike, I think you are confusing a 44 DA with the OP's 44 New Model 3, which is a single action in 44 Russian, which has a cap screw, not a nut. The sideplate was held in place by three screws like the Schofield.

mmaher94087 · #17 04-07-2021, 01:05 PM

Gary, my point was to say that whether .44 SA or .44 DA; all #3 frames use the Stud Nut not a screw. I think we are talking the same: cap screw = stud nut. The confusion, I believe, is from the stud nut (S&W nomenclature) that is slotted like a screw and has the outward appearance of a screw head. It is a round puck with a female blind thread .

glowe · #18 04-07-2021, 03:00 PM

Well here is what I am trying to say. I am almost certain that the only S&W hogleg that had a stud nut was the 44 DA, all others had a what I call a cap or plate or center screw, slotted, threaded screw that screwed into the hammer stud. So from the 44 American to the 45 Schofield, all had a threaded cap screw that screwed into the hammer stud.

Problem is that I have sold off almost all my Model 3s and only have Frontier DAs left. Check out Chicoine's book Antique Firearms Assembly/Disassembly book.

Mbrgr1 · #19 04-07-2021, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

Gary, my point was to say that whether .44 SA or .44 DA; all #3 frames use the Stud Nut not a screw. I think we are talking the same: cap screw = stud nut. The confusion, I believe, is from the stud nut (S&W nomenclature) that is slotted like a screw and has the outward appearance of a screw head. It is a round puck with a female blind thread .

Well, we will find out when the part arrives, mine sure looks like a stud with a broken screw in thew middle and the side plate has the step down on the inside that the replacement has, time will tell, I will re-post when it arrives.

Thanks for all the input. M

mmaher94087 · #20 04-07-2021, 10:19 PM

OK, pass the crow. .44 DA has the stud nut. Obviously, I was thinking the NM#3 SA and the DA had the nut. I'm glad I didn't bet on this as I would have lost... big time. Thanks Gary. You (and Chicoine) had it right.

mtd1960 · #21 04-11-2021, 04:36 PM

PM sent I should have the parts you need, I purchased the screw inventory from Col Charles Pate
Mike Duffy
[email protected]