I am trying to find out how many New Model 3 Target Revolvers with an 8" barrel, in .44 Russian were manufactured.

I remember reading that info somewhere in this forum, but my search has not been successful. Any help would be appreciated.

Regards,
bcowern

I don’t know about a breakdown by caliber, but as the most popular caliber in this model was .44 Russian, it’s likely the vast majority of those with 8” barrels would also be in .44 Russian. I believe the total number of New Model No 3 revolvers produced with an 8” barrel was well under 100, possibly closer to 75 in number. The attached pictures depict one such revolver in my collection.

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	D75B7553-F34C-493A-9F49-1EFCB0F0BDFC.jpg (66.9 KB, 108 views)
	06AD7D65-797F-4637-9133-6D744ABFCF1B.jpg (70.7 KB, 105 views)

Are you asking about the true target models, or the New Model #3's converted to target? I don't know of any Target Models in .44 Russian.
This is my 8 inch New Model #3 in . 44 Russian, sn 32588 shipped March 11, 1899 to a Mr. Prescott. It is a standard New Model #3 converted into a target model.

Attached Images

	New Model #3 Target 002 (1).jpg (61.7 KB, 74 views)
	New Model #3 Target 033.jpg (114.8 KB, 74 views)

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Don Mundell

I think I know what you're saying, but just to be certain----are you saying your 8" #32588 in .44 Russian shipped with target sights; but is most certainly not a New Model #3 Target (per se)?

Ralph Tremaine

I said in my description "converted into a target model". I' haven't seen one of the true 4000 plus target models in .44 Russian, but, I'm probably wrong.

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Don Mundell

I have number 35637, latch also is 35637.

John.

Thanks for the replies.

The reason I refer to my revolver as a Target, is that is how it is referred to in the Factory Letter for it. I assume it was converted at the factory. All numbers match.

Why is it believed that less 100 New Model No.3 revolvers with 8” barrels were produced?

Best regards,
bcowern

No problem! I haven't seen one in .44 Russian either. I had one (#3914) with "38 WINCHESTER CTG" stamped on the barrel (with holes to match), but there was no documentation forthcoming of that. The letter says, "There are no notes in the records on this revolver. It appears to have been a special order for one unit and the revolvers in this serial range are all .38-44 Smith & Wesson cartridge revolver." (A little boo-boo there.) Then it says, "Sorry we cannot solve the mystery." Then I said some things that would get me severely beaten about the head and ears by the Big Gorilla and his band of merry men if I said them here, but it all ended up okay----and "All's well that ends well."

Ralph Tremaine

Here’s a thread about the one I just posted photographs of. I will provide photographs of the factory letter in the next few days and perhaps it clears up some misconceptions, or further muddies them.

My other latest GEM (or proof that model3sw has so many neat toys)-NM #3 with 8" brl

I'm not sure how to categorize my 8" NM#3, 44Russian, as the factory letter refers to it as a Target from the factory.See pic. I also have a 6 1/2" NM#3 in 44 S&W (44Russian) referred to as a Target Variation.

Richard

Attached Images

DSCF9971.jpg (59.9 KB, 37 views)

Where can the information on how many New Model No.3 revolvers with 8" barrels be found? They must be pretty rare if fewer than 100 were made. Four of them in replies to this thread!

Regards

To be, or not to be----------------------------

Methinks the bobbing and weaving going on here has gone on before---is a NM #3 with target sights a NM #3 Target, or a NM #3 target? The purists will say if the serial number is between 1 and 4333, and it's almost always chambered in either .32-44 S&W or .38-44 S&W, and has a 6 1/2" barrel, then it's a NM #3 Target---a series that came to be in 1887, and was the first S&W fitted with target sights as standard equipment.

Just plain, everyday folks may ask what the big deal is---and I don't know the answer to that, except to say what's right is right, and what's wrong depends on who you're talking to. As to what your letters might say, if push comes to shove, your letter will say whatever you want it to. My letters on three NM #3 Targets say "Target". My letter on one NM #3 with target sights says "Special Order Target Variation"-----I kid you not----and I didn't have one word to say about how the guns should be labeled.

Ralph Tremaine

Here’s the factory letter associated with post #2, above.

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82D1C6CE-E1C5-41D6-AAFF-A81CB43038DD.jpg (60.3 KB, 34 views)

I am not a S & W collector per se, but my love of antique firearms has resulted in some antique S & Ws taking up residence at my place.

I fall into the just plain, every day folk category. I sent for a Factory Letter on my NM 3 with an 8” barrel, target sights, and chambered in .44 Russian, not because I wanted it to be a NM 3 Target, but because I wanted to see what the factory records might show. Post # 7 shows the response I received from Mr. Jinks.

Far be it from me to quibble about my revolver with target sights, chambered in 44 Russian, and a serial # far above 4333, being or not being a “Target” or “Special Order Target Variation”.

I have, however, come across various statements regarding NM 3s with 8” barrels, with or without target sights, being very rare and that is why I started this thread.

Mrcvs replied to this thread: "I don’t know about a breakdown by caliber, but as the most popular caliber in this model was .44 Russian, it’s likely the vast majority of those with 8” barrels would also be in .44 Russian. I believe the total number of New Model No 3 revolvers produced with an 8” barrel was well under 100, possibly closer to 75 in number."

From a Rock Island Auction catalogue: "It has been estimated that no more than 50-75 New Model No. 3 Revolvers were manufactured with 8 inch barrels - and target sights."

I am hoping a knowledgable collector on this Forum, can point me to references regarding the rarity of NM 3s with 8" barrels that would be the basis for the above quotes.

I notice that none of the Factory Letters posted in this thread make any mention of the 8" barrel length being rare or uncommon.

Thank you to all who have replied and for your consideration.

Best regards,
bcowern

Page 116 of SCS&W4, under the “Variations” section describing the NM No 3, unusual barrel lengths are described and a 25% premium is added to 5” or 8” barrel lengths. Implying these are uncommon, at the very least. However, no quantitative values are given. However, it states that 7 1/2” and 4” barrels garner an even higher premium, so the implication is that these are rarer than the 8” barrel and it states in the same section that 3 1/2” and 4 1/2” barrels are “very rare and worth higher premiums”.

B. Cowen,
I know that you are looking for a straight forward answer regarding "Production totals"? but that's often not available.

Even though the 4" and 8" barrels were considered "standard barrel lengths" for the NM3....That's a quote from Mr. Jinks book on page 94. They were not special order barrel lengths.

Still, not unlike the "standard barrel lengths" for the top breaks also including the rare 8" and 10" after 1887? They were not often sold so they then become rare variations to collectors. Who knows how many were actually manufactured and sold.... Major Distributors would often buy barrels as spare parts also and actually list these rare barrel lengths as readily available for purchase separately. So it's a very tough question to answer accurately. There are so many "rare variations" out there and based on very little factory data to provide an accurate production number total.

I have a few "rare variation" long barrels that are listed as "open" in the factory records...So, how do we account for them? The total number produced will always be an estimate. Bottom line.



Murph

Don Mundell, Roy Jinks, and possibly Ed Cornett have access to records which may (MAY) provide the information you seek--or at least provide the basis for a scientific wild *** guess. That's the good news. The bad news is they very likely have other demands on their time such as to preclude the examination of the records on 35,796 guns. There's more bad news-----some unknown number of those records are incomplete, others are just plain wrong. (I had an 8" .32 caliber single shot---that would be one of 230 known .32 caliber single shots---a fact worth being able to document. The letter on that gun told me it was a 10" .22. Speaking of NM #3 Targets-----those made only in .32-44 S&W or .38-44 S&W (ONLY those calibers----check it out in any book). I had one of those too (#3914)----in "38 WINCHESTER CTG"---stamped right on the barrel----and easily confirmed by the holes in it-----another fact worth being able to document. The records indicate it was a special order for one unit, but the records don't document the caliber. If you think about that for a moment, there's no reason why the records would document the caliber----the guy who made the holes in it clearly knew what drill bits and reamers to use; and the folks in Accounting knew how much to charge the customer, so who cares what the caliber is? But we were talking about barrel lengths weren't we? I had a 6" 2nd Model Single Shot. 6" 2nds are rare----worth being able to document. I have a letter from one of those folks I mentioned earlier----said he was sorry, but the records didn't indicate the barrel length.

I collected S&W target guns off and on (mostly on) for over 60 years. I've seen exactly one 8" NM #3 (with target sights). It was at a CADA show in Lexington, KY---maybe 20 years ago. My friend John Watts was with me---he saw it too. Neither one of us brought along enough money to pay for it---and it was still there when we left.

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph
I have a New Model #3 converted to a target model. Here is a picture of it along with the description in the letter." We have researched your Smith & Wesson New Model No. 3, Target version, caliber 44 S&W Russian revolver in company records. They indicate that your handgun, with serial number 32588 was shipped from our factory on March 11, 1899, and delivered to Prescott, no address listed. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with an 8-inch barrel, blue finish, Target sights and checked walnut stocks. This was a special-order revolver as it was converted into a target model. Further research should be conducted into whom Prescott was."
Believe me, I paid a kings ransom for it.

Attached Images

New Model #3 Target 002 (1).jpg (61.7 KB, 20 views)

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Don Mundell

I have only seen one NM#3 with an eight inch barrel years ago and I don't think it had the target sights but I don't remember. The 1880's eight inch plus barrels were two-piece. Are these NM#3, 8" barrels also made in two pieces?

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Mike Maher #283

Here is my new model 3 in .44 S&W with 8" barrel and target sights.
As spelled out in the factory letter below this revolver is open on Smith & Wesson records and Roy Jinks was therefore unable to trace the history of this firearm.

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Petter
S&WCA 1759

Mike,
An 8” barrel new model 3 with two piece barrel would need to have been manufactured before 1890. Looks like most of them were late production. So there is another rare bird to locate.

Murph

I don't want to put words in your mouth, or your words in mine, but when you say "it was converted into a target model" I'm assuming the factory folks swapped out the sights on a standard gun------and shipped it as a target gun. (I had a Model of '91 (revolver) shipped as a target gun (carrying an unnumbered latch). Roy noted it was a special order, and opined "-----it would have been pulled from stock and fit with the target sights which would not have been numbered to the revolver.") He later expanded, noting there was no need to number the latch as such conversions were performed by the Service Department (one gun at a time).

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph
Yes, they would pull a standard NM#3 and apply target rear and front sights.
In the latter half of 1887, Ira Paine, who was shooting for Smith & Wesson professionally, asked D B Wesson if it would be possible to make a New Model #3 in a smaller caliber. D B agreed and it was the birth of the first revolver made especially for target shooting.

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Don Mundell

Thanks to all who have so freely shared their knowledge and insights. I have learned a lot.

The revolver chambered in 44 Russian, 8” barrel, and target sights pictured in Post #7, has a barrel latch that is serial numbered to the gun, as are all other parts.

My ignorance prompts me to ask: what are “two-piece barrels” referred to in Post # 19 and Post # 21?

Regards,
bcowern

S&W metallurgy in the 1880's could not produce a long barrel without it warping. So, guns like the NM #3 targets with 8" or longer barrels had the barrel made in two pieces that screwed together. There is a thread on the .320 Revolving Rifle that shows pictures of the barrel mating area. The match-up is incredibly hard to see because it was machined so well. If BMurph hadn't pointed it out in the picture, I would not have found it.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629