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Old 07-24-2021, 09:58 AM
Giorgio Italy Giorgio Italy is offline
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Default Schofield problem

Hello everybody.The theme is always Schofield: since you are so open to a poor Italian in search of information, I would like to ask you if you have any idea what year this pack of cartridges might be.Is it true that Remington and UMC merged in 1911?Was it Remington who incorporated UMC?Or otherwise?Again: I understand that the Schofield second model had rolled both of Schofield's patents.But I see that there are Schofield with serial number well beyond 3xxx who have only rolled the second patent of 1873. When exactly did S&W start printing the 1871 patent?
Thanks everyone in advance!
Giorgio
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Old 07-24-2021, 11:50 AM
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I can help you out with the ammo box since I have aged a similar box. Remington and UMC merged in 1912 and continued to use the combined label well into the 1930s until UMC was finally dropped from the Remington label. The box you show will most likely date from 1923 to 1925. My box dates from 1920 to 1923 since it still has the bullet weight on the top. The company changed to the trademark & Spanish stamping around 1923.

Other might help you with the Schofield patent dates, but I seem to recall at least two different sets of patent dates the appear on this model, but do not know when of why?

Schofield problem-p1010001-jpg
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Old 07-24-2021, 01:13 PM
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Default Patent sequence

Giorgio,
I'm not really following your Patent inquiry but this might help?
(Photo 1) shows the typical patent pattern on all early single action Smith & Wesson revolvers. All referencing the single action improvements.
(Photo 2)is the Schofield "early" patent of April 22, 1873 found stamped on the right side of the barrel on both the model one and model two Schofield.

**See patent drawing of same reference.

The only other patent reference is the late May 11, 1880 patent improvement that George Schofield applied for in April of the same year.

( Photo 4)
Problem being that Smith & Wesson had already discontinued production of the Schofield Model in 1879.

So, that patent date stamp is not found on the Schofield model. However, the improvement is actually seen on the 2nd model so that is part of the storyline to the short lived Schofield model.

I think Schofield was "out of the loop" regarding the termination of the Schofield model and was likely the last person to find out? I guess he counted his chickens (royalties) before they hatched? All the way to the patent office....

Murph

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Old 07-24-2021, 01:14 PM
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Thanks a lot Glowe
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Old 07-24-2021, 03:47 PM
Giorgio Italy Giorgio Italy is offline
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Thanks Murph.OK for the five S&W patents on the left side of the barrel.But I was referring to the first patent issued to Schofield on June 20, 1871 (photo) which is printed only on Schofields with a very high serial number.In Parsons' book there is a letter from G. Schofield to S&W where he complains that in the first three thousand pieces of the first contract with the Ordnance there was no patent of '71 but only that of 1873. Well, I wanted to try tounderstand from which serial number both patents appear. On the 1880 patent, we agree, it was out of the question.Too late to print it on a weapon that no longer existed
G.
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Old 07-24-2021, 05:37 PM
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Default A Piece of the Termination puzzle

Giorgio,
I have been steadily working on a survey of the Schofields....Mostly the Wells Fargo variation (Express Guns) that covers serial numbers into the 6000 range of the model 2...I have not recorded any as having the dual patent...but I might have simply missed it....I also have one in my survey with serial number 8570 and it also has only the 1873 patent so this must have been a "very late" entry?

I honestly think this early patent stamp and design is part of the puzzle regarding "Why Smith & Wesson discontinued the Schofield" I really think the Company higher up's were sick of paying royalties for features that their own engineers could solve. Along with being "Told" what to do by the patent holder? It just seems to me that G. Schofield was kind of a "Major" pain in the you know what. So.......they tossed him under the Bus......Or back then I guess "under the horse drawn wagon".

There really isn't much difference between the 44 American and the 45 Schofield. Basically the latch/catch and caliber.

The company should have simply stayed with the original latch and catch design when they produced a 45 caliber Army revolver and actually went back to it after the Schofield was terminated. I'm sure there was a lot of politics involved with that government contract that will never fully be understood by collectors.

Murph
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Old 07-24-2021, 06:26 PM
Giorgio Italy Giorgio Italy is offline
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Very interesting.I think you are right.S&W was unwilling to pay the royalties to Schofield, and the purchase reeked of politics anyway.Was it possible that the Ordnance tolerated changing cartridges just to buy a few thousand revolvers? It remains to be seen how many pieces both patents have printed.The photo I sent earlier was of a gun no. 5558. I am sending another one that has serial number 7847.
To tell you the truth, I wrote an article about this strange purchase for a magazine here and I'd like to translate it and send it to you.But it is really difficult with the language!(That's 14600 words; 72000 characters) Do you have someone who knows my language well and who can translate it if I send it to you in Italian?
Of course I wrote the article based on the books written by you, that is, by the Americans! So I think it's information that you already know. But in Italy very little is known about these revolvers and dedicated books are lacking
G.
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Old 07-25-2021, 12:13 AM
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Default Wells Fargo survey notes

Giorgio,
First of all, thank you kindly for offering that information in Italian.....I can have it translated on my end...Please send me a PM with the information.

Secondly, I decided to look through my photo's of Schofield Wells Fargo barrel stamps.....Just so happens that the Wells Fargo stamps are on the same side, in fact normally right below the patent stamps.... I have over 120 in my survey but photo'd only 37.....So, if you look at the photo's I posted...I can put an estimated change in patent date stamp between serial number 4727 and 5549... I will look further in my notes tomorrow and see if I can get closer to the origin serial number. That's not a bad spread though. I'd say it's somewhere in that range....Likely in the low 5000 range. I will look through my source reference and pull them up on the websites to see if I can see the patent dates...I have several in my survey notes in the low 5000 range also.

I also looked at my late serial number reference and that was listed under an "altered" Wells Fargo gun in the 8500 range so that doesn't actually count.

Murph
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File Type: jpg E4F31A3C-01F0-469D-8EC0-6D455A537E28.jpg (24.7 KB, 34 views)

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Old 07-25-2021, 03:03 AM
Giorgio Italy Giorgio Italy is offline
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Murph,
Unfortunately there are no Schofield revolvers in Italy, I've never seen one for sale, so my information comes from the books and photos I can capture on the web.Photos that are not always combined with a serial number.

I try to send you the article in word format.If you can translate it you are really cool!

G.
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Old 07-25-2021, 03:05 AM
Giorgio Italy Giorgio Italy is offline
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Sorry ... PDF format!
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Old 07-26-2021, 11:39 PM
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Thank You for posting that article Gorgio,

I will have it translated.

I had some time today and looked through my notes. Pulled the references up on the webs and the photo's are either not good enough to see the patent dates or they were basically not shown....So that serial number spread is the best I can do for right now until more Well's Fargo Schofield revolvers show up for my survey. Maybe other members have a Schofield revolver in the 4700-5400 serial number range?



Murph
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Old 07-27-2021, 01:36 AM
Giorgio Italy Giorgio Italy is offline
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Hi Murph,
Have you seen these images before? (Photo by JoeSalter.com). They come from an October 2020 thread posted by lestert357. The serial number is in the range 4700-5400. Looking at the recoil shield it looks like it hasn't fired a shot!

Giorgio
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File Type: jpg #4980.jpg (57.5 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg #4980 Schofield patents.jpg (59.5 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg #4980 Cyl stop barrel screw.jpg (70.7 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg #4980 recoil shield.jpg (30.0 KB, 34 views)
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Old 07-28-2021, 01:37 AM
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Default Closing the Gap

Giorgio,

Great find....I guess that tightens your gap to within serial number 4727-4980 as to when the additional patent stamp was included.



Murph
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Old 07-28-2021, 02:27 AM
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Default Doubt

Murph
It is certainly an additional figure but I believe that that patent actually put it in a discontinuous way
G.
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