Early Schofield Bullet design

BMur · #1 08-13-2021, 10:50 PM

I just stumbled onto this today. I've been researching the Schofield for a while now...On and off.... Been convinced that there was actually an earlier bullet design that was similar to the earlier 44 American/Russian bullet and in fact the early 32 and 38 Smith & Wesson rounds as well.

This Ideal field loader that is Pre-1887 by configuration has exactly what I was looking for. So few Schofield revolvers were manufactured as compared to the 32's, 38's, and 44's making it very difficult to locate this early bullet. See photo 1.
Photo 2 would represent the typical Post 1887 bullet.

I was wondering if anyone else has one of the early Ideal loaders in 45 S&W in their collection? When found typically it is the Post 1902 variation loader with the later and typical bullet design in photo 2.

So, basically Photo 1 would have been the standard bullet from 1875 until 1887 at which point the improved bullets were introduced to the full line of Smith & Wesson revolvers.

You can also see from the additional photo's the early 44 bullet design is basically the same as the early Schofield bullet design. Having a single lube groove with no crimp representing the early "outside lubricated" bullet.

I have also never actually seen an early original cartridge. Every one that I have seen is the typical Post 1887 multi-lube groove bullet. This is very hard to find information. Even harder to confirm. Just thought I'd share.

Murph

BMur · #2 08-18-2021, 07:27 PM

I suppose the real oddity here is the now proven change in bullet design.

Why the change for the Schofield? It seems to me that the industry actually expected Smith & Wesson to continue manufacturing the 45 caliber revolver. I can find no other gun in any of my research where the industry actually introduced an upgraded bullet design for a Discontinued Model during the black powder era.

The 45 caliber Schofield being discontinued in early 1880 and here we have solid proof that the bullet design was actually improved 8 years after the gun and caliber was terminated. I guess everyone except Smith & Wesson wanted them to continue the 45 caliber line.

Many years later with the introduction of the hand ejector we have very clear evidence that the public was still very interested in the 45 caliber on a revolver frame.

I cherish my 1917 45 Auto-rim.

*** I'll post another photo of the early and late Ideal loaders when the early one arrives in the mail. I think some believe it's been altered. It hasn't. Once you see the side by side photo's you'll see that it couldn't have been altered.

Murph

BMur · #3 08-19-2021, 03:30 PM

What I'm trying to ultimately prove is that there was a reloading kit for the Schofield Revolver.

We know that every "boxed" Smith & Wesson of that Era listed "reloading tools available"....That includes the 44 American, 44 Russian, 38, and 32 Single and Double Action revolvers. "ALL" of the early kits were "Outside lubricated single lube groove kits" So, why not the Schofield?

I had to first prove that there were actual reloading tools manufactured prior to 1887...Not an easy task.

The approximate 700-800 Civilian sold Schofields prior to the 1880 Army Surplus event that included thousands of Schofields sold to Surplus must have offered a Reloading kit....

The die that I found a couple years ago supports this theory. See photo's. That die is what got me started on this research.

I believe this is an Early Schofield reloading die. Likely part of an early kit. The authentic 1885 case and round fits perfectly. I believe the stamp at the base of the die reads: 45 Schofield Revolver 45 SR but until I find another or perhaps a complete kit? Or even a box for the Civilian Schofield that lists "reloading tools available"? It's still a now, supported theory.

If you look closely at the photo's the die has a case stop that is designed for an outside lubricated bullet and the length within the die fits the Schofield case length "perfectly"....The early Ideal loader with outside lubricated bullet photo'd above and recently uncovered supports this die as being legit.

Murph

StrawHat · #4 08-19-2021, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

…The 45 caliber Schofield being discontinued in early 1880 and here we have solid proof that the bullet design was actually improved 8 years after the gun and caliber was terminated. I guess everyone except Smith & Wesson wanted them to continue the 45 caliber line.

Many years later with the introduction of the hand ejector we have very clear evidence that the public was still very interested in the 45 caliber on a revolver frame.

I cherish my 1917 45 Auto-rim…Murph

Murph,

The first of the New Century Hand Ejectors were chambered for the 45 S&W Special. They were preproduction and were S&W’s entry into the Army Trials of 1907. S&W was hoping for a Gov’t contract.

Kevin

BMur · #5 08-19-2021, 09:06 PM

Kevin,
You must be referring to the 44 caliber Military model of 1908? The Triple lock? Listed as chambered in the 44 Special, 38/40WCF, 44/40 WCF, and 45 Colt. The most popular being the 44/40 WCF and 45 Colt.

I like the 45 Special....That would have sold!

Murph

BMur · #6 08-21-2021, 06:31 PM

Well,
The Ideal Field loader/mold arrived and I performed a comparison between the later inside lubricated (IL) multi-groove bullet shown in the photo on the left with the earlier outside lubricated (OL) bullet on the right from an also earlier Ideal field loader that dates to Pre-1887 by design.

To me right away you can see the similarities between the two. However, when I take a caliber to them there is absolutely nothing the same about them.

The earlier OL bullet depicts a .451 diameter bullet while the later IL bullet depicts a .456 diameter bullet... Basically, that proves that the IL later bullet could not have been made into an OL earlier bullet unless you can somehow make a bigger hole smaller with a boring bid?

Also, the overall length of the bullets are different. The earlier bullet is shorter by .006 and the lubrication groove is also smaller with the earlier bullet.

I realize that this is not much of a survey but these molds are near impossible to locate. Even the later IL 45 Schofield bullet mold/field loader is very difficult to find.

This only supports that there was in fact an earlier bullet. It also supports that the bore of the early guns might have been different than the standard .454 found on the later bullet/bore design.
Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Especially since a comparison between the proven .454 Colt early 45 cal Single Action Army and the ??? 45 cal Schofield was very common at that time in history.

The last photo is the very early .38 Smith & Wesson "Commercial Cartridge" circa 1876 showing the early type bullet design, no crimp, single OL narrow groove that is also seen in this early Schofield mold and proven as fact to be the only commercially available bullet type prior to 1887.

I just wanted also to note that this comparison has nothing to do with the Frankfort Arsenal Military bullet and that transition from early Benet type primer to the eventual Boxer type.

This is only relevant to the Commercial Industry at that time. In other words, what type of ammo the average person would have purchased for their personally owned firearm.

I just find this stuff interesting and thought I'd share. The Schofield is probably one of the most difficult revolvers to research only because information is limited and the history of the revolver after it was discontinued in 1880, is Poorly documented.

Murph

StrawHat · #7 08-21-2021, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

Kevin,
You must be referring to the 44 caliber Military model of 1908? The Triple lock? Listed as chambered in the 44 Special, 38/40WCF, 44/40 WCF, and 45 Colt. The most popular being the 44/40 WCF and 45 Colt.

I like the 45 Special....That would have sold!

Murph

No, the revolver I mentioned was discussed in this thread.

The Army Tests the Triple Lock in 1907

The 45 S&W Special, aka, 45 Frankford.

Kevin

BMur · #8 08-22-2021, 04:59 PM

Thanks for that info Kevin.
I personally tend to separate the Military from the Civilian Industry. History does also.
A 45 caliber Frankford manufactured “test round” would be applicable in my opinion to the “ Military trial test” mentioned in that article.
I’m not a believer in the 45 Special identifier without documented proof of a Major Cartridge Manufacturer actually labeling and clearly referencing that round or to me it doesn’t exist but in the minds of collectors embellishing the “44 Special” as the primary Smith & Wesson cartridge identifier.
Also if you read page two of the Military test you will note that the Early Auto pistols were also being tested. In my opinion the 45 Revolver round would have been more directly associated with an early variant of the 45 Auto Rim.

Murph

BMur · #9 08-23-2021, 12:49 AM

Once the Schofield went to surplus and was purchased by the general public, Wells Fargo, American Express, etc., they would have been then loaded with Commercially manufactured ammunition and reloaded with tools that loaded the typical outside lubricated bullet. Also, early tool kits did not apply a case crimp until 1887. However, Commercially manufactured rounds were often crimped.
See photos of early 44 American and 44 Russian type OL bullets and the 1878 32 S&W OL round with S&W early 1878 ad showing the early Bullet with and without a case crimp.

Murph

Giorgio Italy · #10 08-23-2021, 04:06 AM

Hi everyone
Murph
Regarding the birth of this ammunition, I believe that the first commercial .45 Schofields were produced by UMC in 1877. Do you think this is true?

G.

BMur · #11 08-23-2021, 11:00 AM

Giorgio,
I have no proof. Do you have information, documented, photo’s of that 1877 UMC ammo in an original box would be great.
The photo of the early 38 Smith & Wesson cartridge is also a UMC from 1876 for the Baby Russian but I have never seen a box of 45 Schofield ammo from this early period. The box would be Very similar to the photos below. All are very early boxes with outside lubed bullets by U.S. Cartridge Co and UMC. All 3 boxes date between 1877-1881

It’s a very interesting subject to me as an example Jesse James was known to carry a Schofield 45 revolver. However, he was murdered in April of 1882. Where the heck did he find ammo for his gun? Especially that far South? He would have to go to a Major Distributor and special order that caliber Ammo since the Schofields were only just becoming Surplus that early so not many out there at that time. Or he used another caliber 45 ammo for his Schofield like perhaps a 45 Webley was fairly common by then for the Bulldogs!

Murph

Giorgio Italy · #12 08-23-2021, 12:32 PM

Murph
No, unfortunately I do not have precise information on the date of 1877. Only undocumentable news read somewhere. However, in a letter of July 27, 1875 (found in Parsons' book) written by S&W to G. W. Schofield it appears that UMC was working on the commercial cartridge already at that date.

.... "“When we commence on the next order we will put in 5000, so as to have some for private order. We have lately received a letter from the Union Metallic Cartridge Co. of Bridgeport in which they say, you object to the plan of the cartridge suggested by us on the ground that the tallow will be melted out of the groove etc. What would you recommend? Capt. Farley reports that these cartridges are very accurate shooting ones. We have settled upon nothing definite as to the cartridges, so cannot furnish any with the pistols we have sold but have sold them only to such persons as say they can procure the cartridges from the Government”

ReloadforFun · #13 08-23-2021, 12:56 PM

It has always been my understanding that outside lubricated bullets are of the heeled variety, as seen in the 22 Long Rifle. These have the bullet larger diameter the same as the OD of the case.

Inside lubricated bullets are the diameter of the ID of the case, whether or not all the lube grooves are actually inside the case.

The transition from outside lubed to inside lubed saw 44's become 43's and 38's become 35's as some examples.

BMur · #14 08-23-2021, 01:11 PM

Reloadforfun,

That’s an outstanding point you bring up. Smith & Wesson early OL bullets were not like others of that ERA in that they were not manufactured as the same Outside diameter of the cartridge case.
They were outside lubricated bullets but the same diameter as the “ Inside” of the case. Very unique. Inside lubricated requires that the lubricant be within and protected inside lubrication grooves inside the case.

Giorgio,
Thank you very much for that document! That further proves that the early “ Commercial Industry” 45 Schofield bullet was in fact “ Outside Lubricated” it would have to have been in order for the tallow ( early lubricant) to melt off the bullet as mentioned in that period communication! ( Huge info!) If it were inside lubricated like the 45 Colt? That would not have been an issue.

This further “ strongly supports” that the Ideal field loader
Does depict the early “ Outside Lubricated” 45 Schofield bullet and that it was very accurate.

Murph

SS336 · #15 08-23-2021, 01:50 PM

Hope this isn’t a to far off thread drift. Some examples from my collection of mid to late 1800’s bullet design.
I just thought it might be interesting.

BMur · #16 08-26-2021, 02:43 PM

I just found a very interesting historical letter from:

The Commanding officer of the Frankford Arsenal to the Commander of the Springfield Armory. Dated February 24, 1875.

"The Colt's and Schofields Smith & Wesson revolvers with gauges and two cartridges forwarded to you on the 19th have been received".

There is found in gauging the chambers of the two pistols a "decided difference in diameter"

Under instruction from the Chief of Ordnance I am directed to suspend making Colt's revolver cartridges and that you would send me a cartridge intended for "Both" the Colt and the Smith & Wesson revolvers of the 45 caliber of which "A MILLION"
are to be made.

Extraordinary care will be necessary in the manufacture of ammunition capable of being used in both of these pistols, in consequence of the differences in their construction and working parts.

IT WOULD BE VERY DESIRABLE THAT THEIR CHAMBERS SHOULD BE AS NEARLY IDENTICAL AS PRACTICABLE AND THAT THE REASONS FOR TAPERING THE CHAMBERS OF THE COLTS WOULD APPLY EQUALLY TO THOSE OF THE SMITH AND WESSON PISTOL.

Based on this letter it seems clear that the cartridge issue was actually solved early on with the exception of the remaining cartridges in the field and in my opinion the Armory actually machine "altered" the chambers of the guns to match the dual purpose cartridge..

"How does this apply to the Civilian Industry"? In my opinion it doesn't. Early Industry cartridges would have been manufactured "specifically" for the Schofield revolvers sold to the public.

Murph

Boulder350 · #17 08-16-2022, 11:40 AM

Murph,
I'm just getting in to collecting the reloading tools for these old Smith and Wesson revolvers. I found a 45 S&W Ideal tool and I thinks its a #4 model. It has the primer feature and the bullet sizer in the handle with a bullet mold like the one you show in your original post with the single lubrication groove. It looks like the bullet mold may not have been finished. It has yet to arrive at my door

BMur · #18 08-16-2022, 01:05 PM

Hi Mark,
That is a nice and very desirable tool. The screw on the side of the mold block was introduced in 1902 so this tool was manufactured post 1901. This is the most common variation of 45 S&W Ideal tool found today. Why? I have no idea, since there were 3 other variations of this tool prior to 1902 and the Schofield 45 caliber pre-dates Ideal tools by several years. So there are earlier tools out there but extremely hard to find.

You are correct. It is the The number 4 tool. See photo. At first glance you might think that the bullet cavity has been modified. However, Ideal embraced special order. So a client could have ordered the tool with a specific bullet off of their list post 1901. I'd have to see a better photo of the cavity. When you get the tool please post good close ups of both sides of the cavity.

Photo 2 is the Standard 45 Schofield bullet found on these tools. I have an early tool that has the outside lubricated bullet for the Schofield. Very rare. So there are many possibilities here.

What collectors also don't realize is that the known list of bullets is incomplete. All the early bullets pre-1891 are not listed. They are only documented based on what is found on earlier tools that pre-date 1890. So, a lot of original information that dates from 1884-1891 is still unknown on these very popular tools and only documented when an earlier tool shows up.

Murph

Boulder350 · #19 08-16-2022, 05:44 PM

Thank Murph. Will post more pics once the tool arrives