S&W model 2 cylinder lock

Eliiigh · #1 08-24-2021, 03:15 PM

My model 2 second issues spur trigger raises the cylinder lock when pulled back. When released cylinder free wheels. Is this the proper function of the model 2? What keeps the cylinder indexed?

BMur · #2 08-24-2021, 06:30 PM

Nice looking SA 38!
Looks to me like the antique has been completely re-worked. Buffed surface. Fire- blued screws and the trigger looks like a non original replacement.
The bolt will release if the hammer is not at rest against the recoil shield. With the replacement trigger the person that machined it to fit might have manufactured a type of rebounding hammer concept. It can be done if you have the know how.

If the action functions perfectly and it locks up tight? I’d leave it alone!

Murph

mmaher94087 · #3 08-24-2021, 09:47 PM

"If the action functions perfectly..". That's the problem; it does not function perfectly. The cylinder should lock at all times except when the hammer is in the 'half-cock' mode. On the Model 2's, the cylinder stop is trigger actuated. This revolver shows a non-standard trigger. In order to assess the problem it will be necessary to remove the side plate so that one can see the relationship between the trigger, hammer and cylinder stop.

A replacement trigger may be available from Gun Parts Corp. (aka Numrich Arms) or Jack First. If any of the three components are out of spec; the revolver timing will be off.

Eliiigh · #4 08-24-2021, 10:44 PM

Thanks for the reply, how does my trigger differ from a proper factory one?
I thought maybe this trigger might work like a webley.

mmaher94087 · #5 08-24-2021, 11:22 PM

I'll try to post a photo tomorrow if no one else posts one before I do. Your trigger is too long for this frame and appears to have the wrong profile; perhaps gunsmith made. I have no idea how a Webley works; only antique Smith & Wesson's.

BMur · #6 08-25-2021, 12:04 AM

Mike,
The point being if you draw back on the hammer and the cylinder rotates and locks tight at battery and the process can be repeated 5 times in succession then the action is fully functional.

Many millions of Bulldogs were manufactured with floating cylinders with a centrifugal lock up and they functioned fine. In fact many top breaks also functioned this way with no cylinder lock up unless the hammer is at battery. That's probably what the OP is talking about when he mentions a Webley....All the Webley bulldogs function like I described.

The nightmare will begin when you look inside this piece...It's been heavily altered is what I suspect since the trigger is not original likely the hammer has been heavily altered internally .

Also, notice the plate screw is not original under the frame. So that's been altered also.

My recommendation remains the same...If it functions as I described, I'd leave it alone. "OR" expect to start spending a lot of time and money getting it working like original. likely replacing the hammer as well as the bolt, bolt spring, trigger, trigger spring, and that's before I've seen the inside.

Murph

glowe · #7 08-25-2021, 09:45 AM

When I saw the title of your thread, I assumed you had a tip-up Model 2, 32 Rimfire revolver. It is confusing to call a 38 Single Action (1st or 2nd Model) a Model 2. It has been named a 38 SA by most collectors and authors for the last 100 years to avoid confusion. Prior factory references never used the name Model 2, but rather New Model 38, No. 2.

Anyway, the spur trigger is shown on my 38 Single Action, 2nd Model from 1878, shows what the original factory trigger looked like.

Eliiigh · #8 08-25-2021, 11:07 AM

This revolver used to be a non functioning train wreck. I had hoped it was finished, guess not. The last picture is the present firing group. Are any of these parts original?

mmaher94087 · #9 08-25-2021, 12:13 PM

Eliiigh, Agree; train wreck. I believe the hammer and trigger are toast as BMur suspected. The cylinder stop MAY be useable.

If you are so inclined, acquire the paperback book 'Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West', David R. Chicoine, Krause publication, 2001. The Single Action top-break "action operation" is described in detail beginning on page 188 and an illustrated parts breakdown is on page 222.

Try the vendors mentioned earlier as they may have the parts. Place a Wanted ad on this forum. Good luck.

Eliiigh · #10 08-25-2021, 12:53 PM

Thanks, I need to see what these parts actually look like. I've checked in the past and again for parts haven't seen anything. Thanks again!

BMur · #11 08-26-2021, 12:13 AM

Eliiigh,
I would like you to hear me out on this post with an open mind OK?

The 38 Single Action second model early production in "FACTORY BLUED, FACTORY WOOD GRIPS" represented about 10% of production. Meaning that the vast majority of production is found nickel plated with hard rubber grips. Most of the later production blued guns actually had hard rubber grips. Experienced collectors know this and see more value with early blued guns with factory wood grips. I'm one of them.

To restore this gun like you did was a mistake. I recommend that in the future you consider showing your purchases first to this forum. Many experienced and knowledgible collectors on this forum that are willing to share information and make open minded recommendations.

I fully understand the condition of this gun as found. The sheared off base pin is a tough issue but removing what was left of the original factory bluing was a mistake. I have no doubt that the right grip panel has a matching number and that the remaining bluing was factory original. Likely a fairly low serial number also.

Just food for thought.

** Also, I hope that you don't plan on shooting this antique. With the sheared off base pin it is NOT SAFE TO SHOOT!!

Murph

Eliiigh · #12 08-26-2021, 04:31 AM

Oddly enough the deciding factor in choosing to buy was the wood grips. It was advertised as probably having replacement grips. I disagreed with that statement. And yes they are matching numbered with the barrel, frame and cylinder. As to the choice to restore 9 out of 10 times I would agree. This .38 was a train wreck, 6 parts were broken and in need of repair. 6 items were sent to a guy in Michigan who is a very good micro-precision welder. With a new trigger and possibly a new hammer it will be fully functional, .38 S&W being a fairly small black powder round. I'm not sure of your meaning in regard to having made a mistake? Did you mean resale or it being an historical revolver? As to those questions, it will not be resold, historically, Yeah... At the end of the day a handful of broken parts aren't very historical. Thanks

mrcvs · #13 08-26-2021, 11:43 AM

OP,

Unfortunately, you had an original example with little original finish, but still original.

At the right price, I would have given it a second glance…maybe! Now, as heavily buffed and refinished, I would not be interested no matter the cost.

And so, I hope, lesson learned?

At least a .38 SA 2nd Model isn’t worth all that much, a pristine nickel example can still be had for well under a grand. What did you pay for yours?

The blued examples are much rarer, and that’s what you once had.

For reference, here’s a blued .38 SA 1st Model (“Baby Russian”), it it’s original box.

Eliiigh · #14 08-26-2021, 05:57 PM

Yes the finish was in it's original form. Bmur said I had made a mistake. And you have said you hope the lesson was learned. Yes, perhaps I should not have re-blued it. My question is Why? Because...............

first-model · #15 08-26-2021, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliiigh

This revolver used to be a non functioning train wreck. I had hoped it was finished, guess not. The last picture is the present firing group. Are any of these parts original?

I can't speak for the other parts, but the trigger had clearly been welded and reshaped; I've never seen a Smith & Wesson spur trigger looking anything like that.

Whoever did the finishing job on this made the rookie mistake of rounding the edges (including the edges of the side plate—a particularly heinous sin in the curious world of gun refinishing). This is irreversible damage, and hurts its value far more than the wear and tear that it already had.

In the condition that the gun came to you, it was probably worth a hundred or two hundred dollars or so, and it probably could have been gotten into operating order for about that much again. Perhaps not worth it. As it sits now, it's an "untouchable" for most collectors. If you like it, then cool ... but whatever you have invested in it is likely not going to get recuperated if you ever decide to sell it.

Mike