Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Smith & Wesson Revolvers > S&W Antiques
o

Notices

S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-28-2021, 03:02 PM
outta_ammo's Avatar
outta_ammo outta_ammo is offline
SWCA Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: McMinnville, OR
Posts: 502
Likes: 1,429
Liked 1,606 Times in 347 Posts
Default Jesse James Schofield just sold...

...for $140,000

SMITH & WESSON SCHOFIELD REVOLVER ATTRIBUTED TO JESSE - Aug 27, 2021 | Bonhams in CA
__________________
Alden
Guns N' Rosés
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #2  
Old 08-28-2021, 05:39 PM
S&W Fan S&W Fan is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,203
Likes: 6,453
Liked 9,946 Times in 2,055 Posts
Default

Hmm, the original description describes it as a .38 caliber but further down it says .45, for that kind of money I'd hope for more clarity. Not that I would have been bidding LOL.

Regardless a very interesting revolver. Johnny Ringo's Colt also recently sold at auction. Dang I wish I was rich!!

Thanks for posting this!

Last edited by s&wchad; 08-29-2021 at 06:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 08-28-2021, 07:03 PM
SS336 SS336 is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 14,507
Liked 4,647 Times in 1,199 Posts
Default

Makes those registered magnums look like a bargain. 😎
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 08-28-2021, 07:06 PM
dmar dmar is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,545
Likes: 3,089
Liked 2,924 Times in 1,067 Posts
Default

I bailed out of the bidding once it went past $125k...
__________________
NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-28-2021, 07:38 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default Historically Accurate

The original James Boys Gang were wiped out by the good citizens of Northfield, circa August of 1876.

That would have been a little before this Schofield 45 was available for Old Jesse to acquire. Unless he robbed a trooper and a couple hundred rounds of ammo?

So, I suppose the 2nd gang established in 1878 until his assassination in April of 1882 he could have used this gun? Realistically though, any volume of Schofield revolvers available to the general public would have been at the earliest? Mid 1880.

Sure would have been difficult for Jesse to find ammo for it though. Especially in the Southern States that early. It's not like there were a lot of them out there in 1880-1882. Most Surplus guns went to the Express Companies. Wells Fargo and American Express to name the most common found to research.

So far what I've posted is document fact. Now for my two cents....I wouldn't invest this much money in any antique firearm without "Rock Solid" provenance but that's just my opinion.

Honestly, if you were buying Jesse James gun from a relative of his? Wouldn't you want at least "a receipt"? Or perhaps a document from a James relative stating that it was his gun? Perhaps take a photo with that person holding the gun? "Something"? Something other than a fill in the blank sworn statement?

There are actual documented guns used by the James Gang...backed up by News paper articles and court records. That's the kind of provenance I would respect. They didn't steal the gun but they got my receipt?

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 08-28-2021 at 07:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 08-28-2021, 07:54 PM
ken158 ken158 is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 4,667
Likes: 1,437
Liked 4,488 Times in 1,927 Posts
Default

You would think the person that owned a firearms museum and signed the affidavit would know how to spell Schofield…
__________________
S&W factory revolver armorer
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 08-28-2021, 11:14 PM
ISCS Yoda's Avatar
ISCS Yoda ISCS Yoda is offline
US Veteran
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 8,389
Likes: 2,476
Liked 13,054 Times in 4,535 Posts
Default

Quote:
The original James Boys Gang were wiped out by the good citizens of Northfield, circa August of 1876.
That's not even close to correct. Bob Ford murdered Jesse James in April of 1882. The Northfield fight left two of the James Gang dead but Jesse and Frank escaped unharmed. The Youngers were caught but Jesse and Frank James escaped to Missouri.

Knowing that as you do, I would think "wiped out" would be a little bit too strong of a description.

If you know the "Ballad of Jesse James" then you know that Jesse went by the name of Thomas Howard and Frank went by B.J Woodson. They were not as prolific as they had been but Jesse had a new gang, as you note above, probably with little or no help from Frank, and they committed robberies in the late 1870s.

The new gang was not nearly as criminally adept as the old Civil War guerillas like the Youngers and others so they didn't fare well and you all know the history of Bob Ford killing Jesse James.

The Schofields were around in 1870 - you can look that up. The SCSW says 1870 (page 111). Page 113 says that Frank James carried Schofield SN 3444 and 5476. SN 2341 was Cole Younger's and Jesse James owned SN 366, and SN 273 might have been Bob Ford's (page 113) - my speculation on the Ford gun.

The gun in the auction has a 4 digit serial number so it doesn't agree with the SCSW. Maybe Jim Supica needs to opine.
__________________
Come and take it!!

Last edited by ISCS Yoda; 08-28-2021 at 11:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-28-2021, 11:53 PM
mrcvs mrcvs is offline
SWCA Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,780
Likes: 3,219
Liked 6,869 Times in 1,863 Posts
Default

This firearm, as were many in this auction, were supported by spurious documentation:

Bonhams : SMITH & WESSON SCHOFIELD REVOLVER ATTRIBUTED TO JESSE JAMES. Serial no. 2921, circa 1875, .38 caliber 7 inch barrel with fluted sighting channel German silver sight.

All a notarized letter is is a signature verified by a notary that the person signing the letter on that day in front of the notary is indeed the person signing that letter on that day, having presented documentation proving their identity before the notary.

A notarized document does ZERO towards proving the veracity of the claim!!!

For me to actually believe the attribution of this firearm, I'm going to want solid proof, such as contemporary documentation in a published document or records of the era, stating this revolver by serial number. Smith & Wesson records stated in a letter would be acceptable as well, if this revolver specifically shipped to Jesse James or a close associate. A document signed by an individual in front of a notary decades after the fact is totally useless!

For example, there's nothing preventing me from taking my Triple Lock revolver and writing a letter and documenting the serial number stating that I acquired this from individual "X" who inherited it from his father, who knew Buffalo Bill Cody and who was personally given this gun to him by Buffalo Bill, out of his personal collection. It means nothing. Except maybe to my heirs, who are clever enough to present this revolver for sale at Bonham's and a fool is stupid enough to accept my notarized letter as fact.

There's a sucker born every day!

Also, auction houses have no reason to prove the facts. Doing so makes one a party pooper and decreases the hammer price and bragging rights. It's much better to get free advertising and sell a firearm at the highest recorded price ever, even if the supporting documentation is shaky, at best. Plus, your commission is far greater as well.
Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 08-29-2021, 12:39 AM
mh51 mh51 is offline
SWCA Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: central Texas
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 2,756
Liked 1,281 Times in 634 Posts
Default

I have to agree with mrcvs. A signed and notarized document from a descendant of the James boys is nothing more than verifying the signature.
It does nothing to corroborate the info given in the letter.
__________________
Mike H
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 08-29-2021, 12:57 AM
Jessie's Avatar
Jessie Jessie is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 8,865
Likes: 10,603
Liked 15,202 Times in 5,250 Posts
Default

In other words, we will never really know
__________________
“Look life in its iron face”
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 08-29-2021, 02:16 AM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,948 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

In some countries, Notarization is a more rigorous legal process, and may include a requirement that the document being notarized can be demonstrated as being factual. And in some places, a Notary must actually be a practicing attorney. But I am unaware of any such requirements existing in the USA. A signed and legally compliant affidavit of content correctness would provide much more protection against fraud than a simple notarized document (which provides none). And the affidavit's signatory could be prosecuted for uttering a false document.

Last edited by DWalt; 08-29-2021 at 02:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-29-2021, 03:59 AM
Racer X Racer X is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,421
Likes: 995
Liked 3,595 Times in 1,521 Posts
Default

Pat Garret's revolver he used on Billy the Kid just sold at auction. Not sure if Colt, Remington or S&W.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-29-2021, 06:23 AM
Greyman50's Avatar
Greyman50 Greyman50 is offline
US Veteran
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 12,755
Liked 6,108 Times in 2,400 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer X View Post
Pat Garret's revolver he used on Billy the Kid just sold at auction. Not sure if Colt, Remington or S&W.
Just read it went for around 6 million! There is another very famous mob figure’s and families gun collection going to auction. Some Very Nice S&W’s and 1911’s. Can’t relate due to forum rules.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-29-2021, 11:17 AM
BigMuddy BigMuddy is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Linn Creek MO
Posts: 698
Likes: 1,002
Liked 994 Times in 423 Posts
Default

I would question any firearm attributed to Jesse James. His mother was known to have a barrel full of handguns that she would pull from and sell to people as being “Jesse’s gun”. Most all of these guns from that era are impossible to document. There are a few exceptions but unless a gun was ordered directly by an individual from the factory it’s very difficult to know who owned what. I have read many times that Jesse did have a Schofield later in life. True or not I don’t know. I do know here in Missouri it’s hard to find anyone who isn’t a distant relative of Jesse, or didn’t have a relative that knew him, rode with him, knew someone who knows someone who has a gun of his, etc.

I haven’t been in years but in the State Capitol there was a 7 1/2” Nickel Colt SAA 45 that was said to have been taken from Cole Younger after Northfield. It was missing the ejector rod housing that was said to have been shot off in the raid.

The Garret gun that just sold is 7 1/2” Colt SAA. Not a lot of provenance to prove it either for a gun that sold for 6 million.

Dan
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 08-29-2021, 12:05 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,948 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

Like Pancho Villa's gun. There are probably thousands of them around. His widow would buy old guns cheap and sell them at high prices to gullible Gringo collectors as her husband's guns.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #16  
Old 08-29-2021, 12:10 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,948 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer X View Post
Pat Garret's revolver he used on Billy the Kid just sold at auction. Not sure if Colt, Remington or S&W.
The picture shows a long-barreled SAA with nearly no finish remaining, but no other details are given. To part with that much cash ($6M), I'd require at least three tons of provenance.

Last edited by DWalt; 08-29-2021 at 12:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 08-29-2021, 12:20 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default 6 Million

No matter your opinion? 6 Million dollars is a direct reflection of today’s antique gun values. They’re certainly NOT going down! The estimate for that sale was 3 million so double the estimate!

I sat in on a live auction “yesterday” and couldn’t believe what some antique guns sold for ( before the premium) that were not only not matching put togethers but also welded, stretched, heavily modified antiques, poorly refinished, etc, and they still sold for a premium price! Boxed H&Rs and Iver Johnson’s that sold for as much as boxed Smith & Wesson’s. $900 for bulldogs that I use to pay $40 for in the late 1990’s!

Bottom line? The antique market is alive and well!

Murph
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-29-2021, 12:28 PM
Brassmonkey55's Avatar
Brassmonkey55 Brassmonkey55 is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 26
Likes: 19
Liked 24 Times in 13 Posts
Default

Jesse James, Ringo, BtK, all in the same month. Hmm. And you're buying a story.
I wonder why Elvis' gun wasn't ready, and Churchill's Webley. Shame.
__________________
Brassmonkey/ a coastal Canuck.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #19  
Old 08-29-2021, 01:11 PM
Mbrgr1's Avatar
Mbrgr1 Mbrgr1 is offline
SWCA Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Central Oklahoma
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 1,845
Liked 6,040 Times in 1,108 Posts
Default

Are there any S&W records for # 2921?


Sorry if I missed it somewhere in the conversation.
__________________
When words fail, music speaks.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #20  
Old 08-30-2021, 05:37 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default U. S. Army issued

If you look at photo 3 in the auction? You can "Clearly see" The U.S. stamp on the butt of this revolver. That is "Proof Positive" that this was a U.S. Army inspected and Issued pistol....It actually might have been left in the Armory and never issued. Then sent to Surplus in the early 1880's...It's possible but flip a coin... Many of the Schofields were actually issued and remained in the field for many years. In fact the majority of them were issued.

So, the earliest this gun could have been in Civilian use would have been early to mid 1880. The likelihood of this being a James Boys gun is remote at best. The 45 Schofields were "NOT" available in 1870. They were introduced in 1875 as part of U.S. Army trials in 45 caliber. This is a documented fact.

Also, bottom line....cartridge availability in the South would have been a "REAL" issue for this 45 S&W in the early 1880's. Even if you think perhaps they used a Webley 45 cartridge? That caliber was also scarce in the bulldogs....the most common large caliber was the 44.

So this gun honestly would not have been a good choice for an outlaw in the early 1880's. A 44 would have been a much better choice at that time in history due to cartridge availability.

A pistol isn't worth much without bullets!



Murph

Last edited by BMur; 08-30-2021 at 05:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #21  
Old 08-30-2021, 06:29 PM
THE PILGRIM's Avatar
THE PILGRIM THE PILGRIM is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: ALBUQUERQUE, NM
Posts: 13,847
Likes: 8,067
Liked 25,340 Times in 8,518 Posts
Default

Just the other day my Buddy Pat Notarized a doc for me on the hood of his car.
Pancho’s Gun? Colt Bisley.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg 13994217-386F-4D89-A0AC-5A3350C9595F.jpeg (92.8 KB, 171 views)
__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-30-2021, 07:30 PM
jimmyj's Avatar
jimmyj jimmyj is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DUNNELLON, FLORIDA USA
Posts: 11,102
Likes: 1,690
Liked 16,302 Times in 4,231 Posts
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
That's not even close to correct. Bob Ford murdered Jesse James in April of 1882. The Northfield fight left two of the James Gang dead but Jesse and Frank escaped unharmed. The Youngers were caught but Jesse and Frank James escaped to Missouri.

Knowing that as you do, I would think "wiped out" would be a little bit too strong of a description.

If you know the "Ballad of Jesse James" then you know that Jesse went by the name of Thomas Howard and Frank went by B.J Woodson. They were not as prolific as they had been but Jesse had a new gang, as you note above, probably with little or no help from Frank, and they committed robberies in the late 1870s.

The new gang was not nearly as criminally adept as the old Civil War guerillas like the Youngers and others so they didn't fare well and you all know the history of Bob Ford killing Jesse James.

The Schofields were around in 1870 - you can look that up. The SCSW says 1870 (page 111). Page 113 says that Frank James carried Schofield SN 3444 and 5476. SN 2341 was Cole Younger's and Jesse James owned SN 366, and SN 273 might have been Bob Ford's (page 113) - my speculation on the Ford gun.

The gun in the auction has a 4 digit serial number so it doesn't agree with the SCSW. Maybe Jim Supica needs to opine.
I thought that Frank James used Remington Revolvers ?
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #23  
Old 08-30-2021, 08:21 PM
Wyatt Burp Wyatt Burp is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Northern California
Posts: 6,655
Likes: 3,299
Liked 17,158 Times in 2,907 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
The picture shows a long-barreled SAA with nearly no finish remaining, but no other details are given. To part with that much cash ($6M), I'd require at least three tons of provenance.
This .44-40 used by Garrett to kill BTK actually has a ton of provenance. BTK’s buddy Billy Wilson had the Colt and also a new Winchester .44 SRC. When captured at Stinking Springs, Garrett kept these guns. he later killed the kid with the Colt. Then after that he loaned it to be on display at the Cony Island saloon in El Paso. After Garrett was killed, his wife sued to get the gun back and won. Serial number documented in the lawsuit. The Winchester is in this auction, too.
Î noticed in the auction some guns are said to be “attributed to…” a certain person. Like the questionable Kid Curry Colt .45. Other guns flat out say the guns belonged to someone.

Last edited by Wyatt Burp; 08-30-2021 at 08:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #24  
Old 08-30-2021, 08:50 PM
GSP Fan's Avatar
GSP Fan GSP Fan is offline
SWCA Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Michigan
Posts: 662
Likes: 1,044
Liked 1,145 Times in 369 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brassmonkey55 View Post
Jesse James, Ringo, BtK, all in the same month. Hmm. And you're buying a story.
I wonder why Elvis' gun wasn't ready, and Churchill's Webley. Shame.
There's is a Smith attributed to Elvis on Guns International IIRC it's $17K.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-30-2021, 09:04 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default James Gang Guns

The only guns that have excellent provenance regarding the first James Gang guns are Frank James Remington New Model and Jesse James Colt Single Action Army in 45 cal.

There was also a gun dropped by a gang member inside the bank in Northfield, Mn. (A Colt 38 conversion) Those guns also make clear sense at that time regarding cartridge availability since the Single Action Army was clearly available and also the Remington New model so rounds would be plentiful in larger towns with a rail yard to supply local shops with ammo.

There is also testimony from Dick Liddil aka Dick Liddell, aka Dick little, etc, Real name: (James Andrew Liddil) in the Frank James trial in which he states that the second gang primarily used Smith and Wesson 44's and Colt 45's. He also stated that they understood that no less than a 44 would "do the job".

He also identified one early gang member as using a Colt 36 Navy Cap and Ball as using an "Old Fashioned" handgun....That is documented in the Frank James trial.

In fact a lot of the 2nd gang robberies are documented in that trial. All documented in Court records....That's the kind of research I like....No yarns allowed!


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 08-30-2021 at 09:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-30-2021, 09:08 PM
THE PILGRIM's Avatar
THE PILGRIM THE PILGRIM is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: ALBUQUERQUE, NM
Posts: 13,847
Likes: 8,067
Liked 25,340 Times in 8,518 Posts
Default

Churchill reportedly used a Mauser Broomhandle down in South Africa.
Some of those folks probably took it when he was captured.
__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER

Last edited by THE PILGRIM; 08-30-2021 at 09:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #27  
Old 08-31-2021, 05:59 PM
Gene L's Avatar
Gene L Gene L is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 1,232
Likes: 469
Liked 2,087 Times in 731 Posts
Default

I saw JJ's Schofield on a TV show recently. The name Jesse James was written inside the grips. This signature was examined by a signature expert who declared it to be authentic. Also, IIRC, there was blood stains on the inside of the grips. Whether this is true or not, I can't say, but there exists some provenance.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-01-2021, 04:58 PM
JimSupica's Avatar
JimSupica JimSupica is offline
SWCA Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Olathe KS
Posts: 502
Likes: 602
Liked 1,207 Times in 141 Posts
Default

Interesting discussion.

A number of years back, I did an article for the Blue Book on how I evaluate historically attributed guns. You can find it here:
NRA Museums:

I'll also be talking about this subject at the S&W Collectors Association Annual Symposium in Tulsa, including discussing both a Jesse Schofield that I find plausible, and a New Mod. #3 from Jesse's mom Zerelda that I'm pretty sure Jesse never saw.

The serial numbers for James associated Schofields in SCSW are ones that have been reported. We didn't research their provenance in depth, and it's not meant to be comprehensive. There do seem to be an unusual number of Schofields associated with the gang. One bit of scuttlebutt that was circulating a few years ago was speculation that the gang had stolen a case of gov't Schofields in a Tennessee train robbery (post Northfield), but I don't if that's true or not.
__________________
Jim Supica

Last edited by JimSupica; 09-01-2021 at 05:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Like Post:
  #29  
Old 09-01-2021, 07:55 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default James Boy's Research

The only common denominator is conflicting information that you can find from day 1...Day 1 being the murder of Jesse James by Robert Ford.

Even the gun that Robert Ford apparently used is questioned by researchers. See photo 1.
This New Model 3 in 44 Russian serial number 3766 has been questioned since the first historical record from the Baltimore Herald circa 1904 that claims Bob Ford gave this gun to the son of St. Joe sheriff C.F. Craig.

There is also a claim that the marking on the gun was factory ordered at a later date...Seems to me that the factory would have a record of that special request?

However, the only real court records state that Bob Ford was actually convicted of the James murder and sentenced to hang! The only reason he didn't hang was due to the Governor stepping in and pardoning him as part of his agreement to "eliminate" the James Gang as a number one priority.

There is a much earlier documented "sworn statement" from Bob Ford in which he stated that he killed Jesse James with a Colt 45. Backed up by an article in the St. Joseph Daily Gazette on April 5, 1882. Two days after the murder....I tend to believe statements made "at the time of the event" over any other found years later.
To be fair though the Daily Gazette does actually state that the murder weapon was "either" a .44 caliber Smith & Wesson or a .45 caliber Colt silver mounted with Pearl grips presented by the dead man to the slayer only a few days prior.

There are court records that I have personally researched in Santa Fe, New Mexico that also clearly records Bob Fords testimony in court that he carried a 45 Colt. Same with his buddy, Dick Liddell, aka Dick little,etc.

All of my research that goes back to the Civil War when the early gang members rode with Quantrill and Bloody Bill? I found not one piece of reliable, believable, sustainable, evidence that suggests the use of the Schofield revolver by any of the gang members.
Again, the first gang was wiped out in 1876 so in my researched opinion only the 2nd gang "could have" used a Schofield revolver. I'd love to prove it but I've seen zero evidence.

Also, just one comment on the Bloody grips? Jesse James would not have written his name on the inside of a gun grip in my opinion...The robber(criminal's) ploy is never to admit, never to be identified, never to be seen,(where a mask), and always remain anonymous in both name and origin. Writing your name on a gun grip would be a form of identifying who you are if captured or if the gun was found? Not a good idea for the NUMBER 1 criminal at that time hiding from the law, living with his family under the assumed name Thomas Howard?

Only gang members knew who he was. Everyone else was clueless until his murder.


Murph
Attached Images
File Type: jpg C96CCB04-44A4-4B38-8620-36A1EF2A6242.jpg (29.3 KB, 119 views)
File Type: jpg 8B4F8F5E-A008-4FDD-AF8A-E5EADCDD9993.jpg (38.1 KB, 128 views)
File Type: jpeg 7566C9DC-B444-4703-B74D-DCCD21DBBDEB.jpeg (151.5 KB, 124 views)

Last edited by BMur; 09-01-2021 at 09:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #30  
Old 09-02-2021, 12:38 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default The "Frank James" Schofield Revolver"??

When you actually perform research on various claims regarding the use of the Schofield revolver by members of the James Gang? This is typically what you run into:

Frank James Schofield, serial number 5476

This revolver hung on the wall of "The Stagecoach Museum" in Shakopee, Minnesota as part of a collection that was purchased in 1970. It was accompanied by a signed affidavit that states: "Mr. Ray's grandfather Philip Carroll who actually witnessed the Robbery in Northfield, saw several men run out of the bank and observed a rather tall man drop a revolver as he mounted his horse. The man was later identified as Frank James.

After riding out of town Mr. Carroll ran over and picked up the "Schofield Model 2 revolver" and kept it until 1941 at which point he gave it to his grandson.


This story actually sounds credible? but when the Historical Department was asked? It was determined that the gun was actually shipped by serial number from the factory to the Springfield Armory one month "AFTER" the robbery took place!


I honestly believe that the true origin of the Schofield Revolver's use by the Gang is actually the "Son" of Jesse James. He would ride around in his car and charge people a nickel to see the guns used by the James gang tacked to a wood board. See photo from the early 1920's.


Murph
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg 4643CF66-E961-4213-A345-82C0EC94B1EF.jpeg (152.5 KB, 181 views)

Last edited by BMur; 09-02-2021 at 01:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #31  
Old 09-03-2021, 04:54 PM
JimSupica's Avatar
JimSupica JimSupica is offline
SWCA Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Olathe KS
Posts: 502
Likes: 602
Liked 1,207 Times in 141 Posts
Default Anyone have more info on the JJ display board?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
When you actually perform research on various claims regarding the use of the Schofield revolver by members of the James Gang? This is typically what you run into:

Frank James Schofield, serial number 5476

This revolver hung on the wall of "The Stagecoach Museum" in Shakopee, Minnesota as part of a collection that was purchased in 1970. It was accompanied by a signed affidavit that states: "Mr. Ray's grandfather Philip Carroll who actually witnessed the Robbery in Northfield, saw several men run out of the bank and observed a rather tall man drop a revolver as he mounted his horse. The man was later identified as Frank James.

After riding out of town Mr. Carroll ran over and picked up the "Schofield Model 2 revolver" and kept it until 1941 at which point he gave it to his grandson.


This story actually sounds credible? but when the Historical Department was asked? It was determined that the gun was actually shipped by serial number from the factory to the Springfield Armory one month "AFTER" the robbery took place!


I honestly believe that the true origin of the Schofield Revolver's use by the Gang is actually the "Son" of Jesse James. He would ride around in his car and charge people a nickel to see the guns used by the James gang tacked to a wood board. See photo from the early 1920's.


Murph
Somewhere I picked up the concept that this display board was at one time called the "Crittenden Board" and had something to do with Gov. Crittenden of Missouri who put out the reward on the James gang. I've also heard that it was Jesse Jr.'s traveling exhibit.

Can anyone point me toward more info on the background of this old display? I think I know where the Schofield, belt, and holster from this display currently are. Does anyone know of other identifiable surviving artifacts? Thanks - Jim
__________________
Jim Supica
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-03-2021, 06:58 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default Sources

Jim,
I have more information on that board but it's at my mountain property. I can't remember all this stuff so I have to look through my piles of paperwork. I do remember that it definitely is a put together by Jesse James son. Jesse jr. and that he did in fact drive around and charge a nickel to see the board in the early 1920's. He also took photo's of the board and sold photo's...That's the reference to the Governor...It's a photo of the board signed by Jesse James Jr....Notice also he claims that "THE PHOTO" is authentic...not the guns in the photo?

Also, some of the guns on the board are actually photo'd and in the library of Congress. The photo's are documented as taken in January of 1921 but the guns that I've seen match what is on the display board. The Hopkins and Allen 44 Army, The Schofield 45 (Jesse's last gun?), and the Winchester rifle. However, the Library of Congress "Clearly" lists them as NOT Confirmed authentic! That part I believe.

NRA Arms Museum Brass Pro Shop in Springfield, Missouri has one of the Jesse James claimed Schofield revolvers. Likely from that display board.
One of two Remington 44 model 1875's that was Frank James turn in guns when he turned himself into the Governor after Jesse's death is displayed in Bianchi's Frontier museum. At least it was.

National Museum of Crime and Punishment had Clarence Hite's Number 3 Russian in 44cal. That's in Pigeon Forge, Tenn.

I have to comment on Cole Younger's "Gift" to State Senator George Wilson...Serial number 13. Claimed to be a Civilian Schofield and given to the Senator by Cole "AFTER" he got out of prison about 1901...I honestly don't see how that has anything to do with the Gang activities. Cole was in prison from 1876-1901...So, maybe he had this minty Schofield in his shoe? I don't know.

All of the Schofields that I have researched so far have been a dead end. Nothing proven. Not even close.

An early error can be seen in a News Paper article after the Jesse James Murder in which they list the guns taken as a Colt 45 and a Smith and Wesson 45 but in my opinion that was an error. Accounts that were actually documented by law enforcement, etc list the guns as a Smith & Wesson 44 and Colt 45 backed up by the Sheriff's written notes, Bob Fords "sworn statement" that also lists the serial number of the Colt 45 by the way, and "early" news paper accounts within a day or two of the murder. Those I tend to believe more than any other account that tend to get embellished and distorted soon there after.

I've found zero early references to a 45 Schofield other than the error made by newspapers that in my opinion were simply mis-identifying the caliber since all early Smith & Wesson's were not caliber stamped. The Colts actually are on the trigger guard bow. Small print but it's there.

I firmly believe that the gang used 44 Smith & Wesson Model 3's....and several have been documented and are actually listed in Court records that I have read but never a 45 Smith & Wesson.

Add to the fact that Jesse James Jr. was driving around with a put together wood board charging a nickel a view some years later with a Schofield revolver on the board? There you have it...Total distortion. That is the earliest reference to the Schofield revolver that I am aware of; Circa 1921.

I'm not saying that a Schofield wasn't part of the gang's tools....I just can't prove it.

Murph
Attached Images
File Type: jpg C2324B29-52DD-42DA-A688-335CA9159FB2.jpg (79.7 KB, 73 views)
File Type: jpg 82471DCE-92DE-4B7B-9890-35B412656B5A.jpg (46.9 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg 7705668A-AFBE-470E-8FF0-6B014A1C32FB.jpg (81.1 KB, 66 views)

Last edited by BMur; 09-03-2021 at 07:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #33  
Old 09-03-2021, 08:28 PM
ISCS Yoda's Avatar
ISCS Yoda ISCS Yoda is offline
US Veteran
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 8,389
Likes: 2,476
Liked 13,054 Times in 4,535 Posts
Default

I'm just delighted that Jim Supica dropped in! That's excellent!

FYI, this is not entirely true:

Quote:
All a notarized letter is is a signature verified by a notary that the person signing the letter on that day in front of the notary is indeed the person signing that letter on that day, having presented documentation proving their identity before the notary.
It depends on the document itself. While the notary identifies the person there is a lot of value to a notarization on an affidavit which reflects that the affiant acknowledged the truth of the matter asserted. That kind of affidavit is admissible in a court of law.

On a parallel note, I read somewhere once that Jesse's mother sold stones from his grave and when she needed more she obtained them and dumped them on the grave so she could sell them. So suggesting that she did that with "his guns" is not as fanciful as it might appear to be.
__________________
Come and take it!!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-03-2021, 09:57 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default Fake Jesse James guns "By his Mother"!!

It's not speculative, it's a well known fact that Jesse James mother sold FAKE Jesse James guns. See Photo from the NRA website. ( Well known in that county as Zerelda's guns) Pure fakes. but she would give you a receipt for it! They are suppose to be worth a lot of money now...

I suppose that's why I'm very skeptical about the Schofield being part of the James Gang tools without documented proof.

I'm sure that without his father alive to mentor Jesse Jr....? That he relied on his Grandmother for advice? That's how the board turned up with The James Boys guns? tacked on it? I'm not a believer. Maybe Zerelda authenticated them as well?



Murph
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg E4999E0B-B83F-473D-A552-9B16552F1FAB.jpeg (95.8 KB, 82 views)
File Type: jpeg 88AB7017-9B22-403A-B96B-94B9AA00A74B.jpeg (83.9 KB, 72 views)

Last edited by BMur; 09-03-2021 at 10:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #35  
Old 09-03-2021, 10:32 PM
mrcvs mrcvs is offline
SWCA Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,780
Likes: 3,219
Liked 6,869 Times in 1,863 Posts
Default

I would think that a Zerelda authenticated revolver would be worth a small premium, not because of the association with Jesse James, because there is none, but just because the story of her selling revolvers to the general public as being Jesse’s is so legendary.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #36  
Old 09-04-2021, 12:43 AM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default Merwin & Hulbert is Bogus!

I wish I had my notes but I just remembered something about that display board that I determined to be totally Wrong!

The James Boys second gang was basically done with the Murder of Wood Hite by Dick Liddell. Wood Hite being Jesse and Frank James Cousin. Dick turned himself in for a deal with the law after the murder on Dec 7,1881. So after that murder the gang was basically done.

When we look closely at that Jesse James Jr authentic display board ( two different photos?) you have to justify “ALL” of those guns being Pre-1882! At the very latest!

The problem as I now recall is the 44 WCF Hopkins & Allen or possibly a Merwin and Hulbert long barrel Army but the last photo is from the library of Congress taken in 1921. It’s definitely the same gun that’s on the display board as being part of the James Gang Guns?

That gun is later than 1881. Likely later than 1882! We’d have to see the barrel address but the last two patents are 1882 & 1883 for that variation which would date that gun Well beyond the death of Jesse James! Game over!

This is proof positive in my mind that the board is BS! And now questions ALL of the guns on that board!

Murph
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #37  
Old 09-04-2021, 01:57 AM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default Patent improvement Sept. 1882

Here is the actual patent dated September, 1882. 5 months after Jesse James was murdered! That would be the earliest. Likely this gun is many years later since they were manufactured until 1892!

Murph
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DC883B99-FC43-4B01-B716-D4C7E15C75A7.jpg (63.2 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg D160C421-7105-4721-AE83-C448470B7421.jpg (60.1 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg 73F67C4D-6322-46F5-AD76-9DDC3EC80D53.jpg (29.0 KB, 37 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #38  
Old 09-04-2021, 02:02 PM
iby iby is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 931
Likes: 2,054
Liked 828 Times in 334 Posts
Default merwin

The few examples I have show a patent date on the barrels ending @ 1877 ???
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20200516_084858074.jpg (125.7 KB, 49 views)

Last edited by iby; 09-04-2021 at 02:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #39  
Old 09-04-2021, 02:16 PM
Jessie's Avatar
Jessie Jessie is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 8,865
Likes: 10,603
Liked 15,202 Times in 5,250 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
The picture shows a long-barreled SAA with nearly no finish remaining, but no other details are given. To part with that much cash ($6M), I'd require at least three tons of provenance.
To part with $6m for ANY gun I would need three tons of dementia.
__________________
“Look life in its iron face”
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-04-2021, 07:11 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default Pocket Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by iby View Post
The few examples I have show a patent date on the barrels ending @ 1877 ???
iby,
Very nice Pocket Army...I have a few in my collection also...Very heavy guns! I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that grip knuckler!

I won't get into Patent study. It's boring for most. I will say that Hopkins & Allen was nothing like Smith & Wesson with Patent stamps. I'll leave it at that unless you want more info please PM me if you want the "LONG STORY"?

For the benefit of those who appreciate short posts? I will refer to the Carder book on Hopkins and Allen revolvers?

(Page 45) He states: Four Modifications were developed for the large frame M&H revolvers.
The first issue had scooped flutes and was devoid of the top strap.

Cylinder flutes on the second open top model has flutes extended to the end of the cylinder, a dead end pin was added to the barrel release and the trigger guard was enlarged.

IN 1883 THE 3 MODEL WAS STRENGTENED BY THE ADDITION OF A TOP-STRAP.

The fourth model has ribbed barrels with the front sight pinned to the barrel.


That about covers it.... The gun on the board is NOT a James Gang Gun. It's fake!

If I had my notes with me I could go on and on.

One thing that is common to "OLD FAKES"? They tend to be easy to figure out because the faker 100 years ago didn't have enough information to cover his/her tracks.....Today's information highway spots them easily if you do some research.


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 09-04-2021 at 07:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #41  
Old 09-04-2021, 07:43 PM
iby iby is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 931
Likes: 2,054
Liked 828 Times in 334 Posts
Default

Murph.
I like talking about the Merwins.
My research consists of my personal observations and Art Phelps book
The 1st and 2nd models both had scoop flutes.
The 3rd model had standard flutes and top strap.
The 4th model had the ribbed barrel and sight as you describe it.
For at least 10 years I looked at every one I could
The number of 1st and 2nd models is pretty low (IMO) so they could easily have been produced in the fist couple of years (1877-1878)
The 3rd models could have been close behind.
We will never know for sure
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 09-04-2021, 09:00 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default Patent Reference

iby,
I hate to get into Patent reference. Not that I don't enjoy it but people get bored fast. Patent reference is "very accurate" when it comes to time of application, description of specific design, and Patent approval by specific "date". It's a legal record.

All the research that I have performed on Antique firearms and firearms firms that includes a pretty long list?

I have never once examined, read about, or heard of any firearm patent feature being applied to any firearm "Before" the application process.

In other words once a patent is "Applied for" often also seen as " Patent Pending"? and the early featured improvement or new design can be actually seen manufactured "EARLY" but NEVER before the application of that patent....There is a legal reason for this....It's called ownership of the design. It would be not wise to make something, sell it, and then apply for a patent. You risk someone else stealing it from you. That's why it didn't happen.

In this case on the Model 3? With topstrap? the September Patent of 1882 was "APPLIED FOR" in March of 1882 that clearly states in detail from the inventor....Not just a picture but the "design improvement" is listed in the patent description.

The list of improvements by drawing and written description is "clearly" seen on the suspect gun. the absolute very earliest this gun could have been assembled is "AFTER" patent application of March,1882. That's reaching! as far as a James Gang gun.

The last robbery took place in September of 1881. That's 6 months "before" this design and patent was even "applied for". The Gang was basically done in December of 1881. The rest of the time the gang was either turning themselves in or "hiding out" from the law.

This legal documented patent also 100% backs up Author Charles Carters statement that the topstrap was not included in the model until 1883.

I can go on. We can talk about Major Distributor reference if you're interested? When this gun first shows up in catalogs?


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 09-04-2021 at 09:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 09-04-2021, 10:39 PM
iby iby is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 931
Likes: 2,054
Liked 828 Times in 334 Posts
Default merwin

Murph.
You have obviously done more researching than I can even imagine.
My research has been anecdotal at best.
Can the patent applied for in 1882 be for some minor variation?
The parts you highlight are included in the very first models???
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 09-04-2021, 11:34 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default Addiction?

Mike,
It's better than being addicted to drugs I guess?

So, the documented September, 1882 Patent improvements reference helps huge to determine specific features as being first available at a specific time in history...

However, it doesn't help us much as to "how" the gun maker actually applied the design from a timeline perspective. They could have waited years or never used it at all?

By that I mean, When they actually included the patent or if they in fact even used the patent. The way we apply this information is from surviving examples. Since we don't have factory records the concept of Model 1, 2, 3, etc does not apply to this information.

What I'm saying is that just because we see this new patent design on the Model 3 in the drawing? Doesn't mean it wasn't applied to the Model 1 and 2 also. We have no idea, without factory records as to when the Model 1 was discontinued nor the Model 2?

I know that early variations of the Model 1 and some of the Model 2's by serial number (early) had earlier patent designs for the barrel release and locking feature. That's where the late 1870's patents are applied to the design and seen without the 1882 improvement. "Early guns".

So, now we get into the speculation part of the program? Most often we know from collecting that factories typically had an "overlap" in production.

If any model 1's or 2's were still in the factory? Surplus parts? It's more than possible that they would have had this new improved feature applied to their construction prior to being assembled and sold.

They would have to be late serial numbers. You would have to conduct a survey of surviving examples found by serial number to uncover this patent included in the models....When doing so you can then date them as being manufactured after late 1882 by patent reference. Knowing that the features were not available until that time in history. In addition, you can then date those examples that "Lack" the 1882 improved feature as being manufactured "Prior" to late 1882.

That's how you plug it in without Factory records. It's not a guess. It's using legal recorded reference to establish a timeline.

Smith and Wesson would do the same thing. Using up frames from outdated guns until exhausted.

I don't really want to get into the "Patent Stamps" on the Hopkins and Allens, Merwin & Hulberts?

I performed an in depth study of the XL series for my second book that's not published yet? and the stamping of patents used by that company shows many overlaps in production. Proving that many of the early series were actually assembled later. Hey, if it sells who cares if it's old stock?

James Reid did the same thing in 1883. Assembling and Selling 10 year old stock as a "New Model" to pay off creditors prior to going out of business. Clearly proven and seen in this so-called New model having design features that were discontinued from the Market in 1872!


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 09-05-2021 at 12:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 09-05-2021, 01:32 AM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default Quick follow-up

I have too many projects going on right now Mike,

But I just did a quick search and looked at a few dozen Merwin large frames then compared the March 6, 1877 patent seen in photo below with surviving examples?

Also, the improved Sept.1882 patent?

Seems to me that "all" models of the so-called 1,2,3 and 4th models? All seem to have been made post 1881. The claim that they were made in the 1870's is not supported by patent reference. Therefore, in my opinion it didn't happen.

Remember that just because a patent exists doesn't mean it was ever used. The 1871 Swinging link patent is an excellent example. March of 1871? That patent was primarily the swinging link that is not on Hopkins and Allen guns except for the rare XL6 in 41rimfire.( Not referencing the Civil War Era 38rf Navy Patent)

Yet the 1871 patent stamp is seen on "all" early guns. The reason is the "Partial" patent is actually used...That is the vertical base pin release that is patented along with the Swinging link.


I'm guessing here without further research but likely the 1877 patent "needed" an improvement "PRIOR" to production due to a flaw in that design. I see an undersized barrel lock as seen in the drawing at the frame location. The loading gate lacks a button. Just some inadequate knurling at it's base as well as the base barrel release lacks a decent nub to push it back with the thumb.


So I'm suggesting that "All" of the so called early and late models were actually made after 1882. I wouldn't be surprised in the least. All the listings are guesses as far as when these were made...I guess they didn't bother to look at the patents?

Basic stuff.

That's generally what happens when people copy each other's research instead of doing there own homework. You follow them down the wrong road! Just because the gun has an 1877 patent on the barrel doesn't mean it was manufactured in the 1870's! "Match it up with the Patent"!!!

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 09-05-2021 at 01:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #46  
Old 09-05-2021, 01:56 PM
iby iby is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 931
Likes: 2,054
Liked 828 Times in 334 Posts
Default

Thanks for your perspective Murph.
Our conversation reminded me of a particular example of an early (#92)
Merwin with POSSIBLE date provenance.

Merwin Hulbert & Co First Model Army Revolver 44 MH&Co | Rock Island Auction

Thanks again
Mike

Last edited by iby; 09-05-2021 at 01:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #47  
Old 09-05-2021, 04:00 PM
iby iby is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 931
Likes: 2,054
Liked 828 Times in 334 Posts
Default

Sorry Murph. I couldn't help myself.
You are turning me into a researcher LOL
1876 Automatic Second Model Frontier Army
This model was made between 1878 and 1882. It was virtually identical in appearance to the First Model. Inside the change to a shorter cylinder locking bolt was made which eliminated the access plate in the frame below the cylinder. The trigger guard was longer and deeper, the form of the hammer thump grasp was changed. The outside screw heads were made uniform in size. A significant feature is the detent pin in the barrel release lever. It was a result of a recommendation from the U.S. Army Ordnance Board's trial on May 19, 1879. However, this feature was later deemed unnecessary and eliminated on later models.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #48  
Old 09-05-2021, 06:10 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,846
Likes: 1,780
Liked 4,511 Times in 1,658 Posts
Default Additional research needed

Hi Mike,
No problemo...It's addicting...Just warning you.

Yeah, more research is definitely needed. I don't doubt that the early models turned out some oddities? I did read about the Army trials and a listed "failure" on the rust test?

I always separate any "Military references" with Industry production related to Civilian variations sold.

What you need to do is find one "early" catalog reference that "Proves" those early models were actually sold to the public? I suspect that they actually weren't.
Not until the improved patent of September 1882 was introduced to the basic design. Likely first manufactured after application in March of 1882 for sale to the general public. That's my guess without more research.

I am performing Distributor catalog research for another subject? so I plugged in the Merwin Frontiers in 44cal(Pocket armys also)

Here is what I found:

Hartley and Graham Circa 1878: NO LISTING

Homer Fisher Catalog circa 1880: NO LISTING

U.S. Cartridge Co catalog Circa: 1881
"NO LISTING"
* So no listing for the Merwin & Hulbert 44 cartridge. That's kinda huge! If the gun was being sold to the general public? The cartridge would be also!

*** NOTE: I did find an early "outside lubricated" 45 Schofield round listed in the 1881 U.S. Cartridge Co. catalog... If that round is out there that early? The Merwin & Hulbert round would also be "IF" the gun was available to the general public...This suggests it wasn't.

Jos. C. Grubb & Co: Circa 1882: NO LISTING

TURNER & ROSS: CIRCA: 1883
This is the earliest listing that I found for the Frontier 44 and Pocket Army as being sold to the General plublic: It is "clearly listed" as "just out" or "just released by Merwin & Hulbert"
** This also backs up that the model 3 with topstrap was not available until 1883 since that is what is shown in the catalog!

Several other Major Distributors list them as well after 1883. See photo's.

Circa: 1887 Lovell finds the Model 4 available along with a full page listing of "all" their revolvers. Very impressive line up.

*** So, this Major Distributor catalog reference research basically backs up all that I posted earlier regarding dates and availability to the public.... What the details are about the model 1 and 2 regarding how many were sold early with "early" 1877 features? I have no idea. They would likely be "extremely rare" if they exist?

*** Also, remember, they "must" depict early features that are found in the 1877 patent drawing. If they have features that match the 1882 patent improvement? They could not have been released until at least March of 1882 since that is when the improved patent was applied for.

Just like the auction listing you posted? It's possible that with the low serial number found on that gun and having the 1882 features? that it was manufactured before patent approval....Likely between March and September of 1882.....That's the "earliest it could have been sold"...

*** Getting back to the James Gang wood board with 44 M&H Frontier Army model 3? All this research only further solidifies that the gun was NOT a James Gang gun. We now have multiple references that conclude the model 3 was not introduced until some time in 1883! That's the earliest! So that gun was introduced "AFTER" the murder of Jesse James!

Murph
Attached Images
File Type: jpg D256A25A-06CF-4380-B795-B95BACD93BE1.jpg (41.0 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg F2B90096-5B1A-4AB6-8630-FE8CB723D30B.jpg (89.9 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg 10649006-9C0E-4EA3-AFFB-C0B96653E8BB.jpg (70.6 KB, 28 views)

Last edited by BMur; 09-05-2021 at 06:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #49  
Old 09-05-2021, 07:16 PM
waelkhntr waelkhntr is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Vancouver WA.
Posts: 190
Likes: 1
Liked 132 Times in 50 Posts
Default

Has there been any information released about the purchaser of the "SMITH & WESSON SCHOFIELD REVOLVER ATTRIBUTED TO JESSE"? Was it an individual or a museum?

Inquiring mind wants to know
__________________
Treat others with respect

Last edited by waelkhntr; 09-05-2021 at 07:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 09-06-2021, 12:50 PM
bigwagon bigwagon is offline
Member
Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold... Jesse James Schofield just sold...  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 318
Likes: 531
Liked 637 Times in 156 Posts
Default

I saw some solid speculation on another forum that Bill Koch, one of the Koch brothers, bought the Pat Garrett SAA and some other guns in the Bonhams auction. He has been linked to several other high-dollar outlaw artifacts, including the only known photo of Billy the Kid. So that's one possible candidate.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What Gun Killed Jesse James? Texas Star S&W Antiques 38 08-19-2018 09:50 AM
Jesse James Chuck24 The Lounge 3 04-03-2018 10:10 PM
New Jesse James photo found?!! Wyatt Burp The Lounge 22 03-21-2018 10:00 PM
A Letter To Jesse James macbullet The Lounge 15 04-07-2010 01:54 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:08 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)