Premium for associated boxes or value of individually…

mrcvs · #1 08-29-2021, 05:20 PM

For original boxes associated with lower value top break revolvers, such as .32/38 Safety Hammerless or DA Perfected revolvers, etc., late 19th or early 20th C.??? The SCSW4 isn’t very good at suggesting a premium to add to an otherwise not overly valuable revolver or a value individually. Of course, the condition of the box would matter.

BMur · #2 08-29-2021, 07:21 PM

The Market on antique firearms not unlike any other Market requires that you "watch it" constantly..

I just followed this auction yesterday....I'd say prices have come up a bit for original boxes and minty top breaks.

That includes the Iver Johnsons and H&R's as well as the Bulldogs...It's amazing in my opinion.

I personally don't appreciate the low value title given to top breaks...I like "face value" as a better term. It's worth what it sells for.

Take a close look at the auction estimate vs. the selling prices.

About 6 months ago I bought a New Departure 32 in the box...Absolutely mint. box and gun....Seller felt sorry for me when I bid and won his auction for $475.

I wonder if he would still feel sorry for me now.??

Murph

mrcvs · #3 08-29-2021, 07:56 PM

So, what’s the value, in your opinion, of the three examples you presented, individually, revolvers only, and then boxes only?

mmaher94087 · #4 08-29-2021, 08:46 PM

My take: all three boxes are in above average condition. I'm assuming the interiors are of the quality of the outside. The New Departure boxes were in the $ 175 range and the Perfected box, because they are uncommon, would bring $200 - $250. I said "WERE" as far as prices go as I haven't seen any new prices in the last few months.

BMur · #5 08-29-2021, 09:08 PM

Market value on a minty gun by itself and Market value on a minty box by itself is not the same when you put them together.
There is no comparison as they are a separate Market concept.
Same goes with dealer cased guns.

Murph

mrcvs · #6 08-29-2021, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

My take: all three boxes are in above average condition. I'm assuming the interiors are of the quality of the outside. The New Departure boxes were in the $ 175 range and the Perfected box, because they are uncommon, would bring $200 - $250. I said "WERE" as far as prices go as I haven't seen any new prices in the last few months.

How do you know the Perfected boxes are rare? I’m not disputing it, just curious as to how you know?

A book on Smith & Wesson revolver boxes,descriptions, rarity, and value would prove helpful as I feel like I go about this rather blind.

Anyone with the knowledge thought about tackling this?

mmaher94087 · #7 08-29-2021, 10:06 PM

"How do you know the Perfected boxes are rare?" I base my comments and values based upon the empty boxes that have come up for auction or are listed For Sale. I see 20 New Departure boxes for every Perfected box. The NM#3 boxes top the list in my opinion. The scarcity of the original firearm correlates to the rarity of the box. For example; I have seen exactly one Wesson Favorite box offered For Sale in 50+ years of collecting.

BMur · #8 08-29-2021, 11:05 PM

In my opinion the market has a limit for original boxes. Only due to the eventual and inevitable “ Reproduction box” showing up. That’s exactly what happened to Colt boxes. They achieved a huge dollar amount then the reproductions showed up and popped the bubble! It’s only a matter of time before you see repro S&W boxes.
They reproduce just about every cardboard box now.

Murph

red9 · #9 08-30-2021, 08:11 AM

The value of the .38 Perfected should reflect the gun + A box. Seller indicated that box was not s/n matched to the gun.

Bob

Books · #10 08-30-2021, 09:18 AM

About 20 years ago, Old Town Station offered a fine Baby Russian and a box for the Same for $ 2200. The pistol by itself was $ 200. (you all can do the math.)

Books

glowe · #11 08-30-2021, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

How do you know the Perfected boxes are rare? . . .

Anyone with the knowledge thought about tackling this?

First, there is absolutely no way to know how many gun boxes are out there for any caliber, but think about how many guns that originally came in a gun box go up for sale with that box. I can confidently estimate that I see 95% of vintage S&Ws going up for sale do not have a box. The percentage of guns over 100 years old that have a box might be down to 1% - 2%.

I have been looking for 38 Perfected boxes for well over two decades and can tell you that I have seen maybe a dozen come up for sale. That is enough to say that no matter how many are out there, they rarely come up for sale. The number of 38 Perfected revolver that sold in a box for that same time period could be counted on one hand.

Gun boxes were built for one purpose and that was to get the gun from the manufacturer to the buyer safe and sound. Sure, they may have lasted for a few years after that, but almost surely thrown away over time. I recall my grandparents had a small safe with their coveted things. Letter from the early 1900s from their relatives who moved to California in 1903 from Michigan, Christmas cards, Easter cards, and Birthday cards. They were all neatly kept in small pasteboard boxes of one type or another. I am sure that many boxes that survive today were used for similar purposes.

There seem to be more pocket revolvers that show up in boxes than any other models out there. My guess is because they were purchased for bedroom defense and left in the box in the drawer for most of their lives. That is also why so many pristine short barreled top-breaks are seen in fine condition today.

I keep hearing about these S&W counterfeit gun boxes, but have yet to see one. This is not a problem today and I can tell you that there are few S&W gun boxes that would be worth counterfeiting. It takes too much time to make them.

Club Gun Fan · #12 08-30-2021, 10:35 AM

I agree with Gary. I have close to 200 boxes. I have never seen a fake pre war S&W box. I have however seen a blue box I thought was fake along with fake labels. I just bought a 4" blue .38 Perfected blue box that I know is real.

BMur · #13 08-30-2021, 12:27 PM

It's just a real part of collecting that we have to be aware of and except. "Reproductions" are out there in just about every venue of collecting. That includes boxes.

Ever since repro cap and ball colts were introduced? I've seen many Colt Dragoons with repro parts on them...One just sold yesterday for a lot of money with a repro cylinder on it...It's sinful if you ask me.

Why there is a market for repro boxes I have no idea and who is making them? I have no idea but I've seen many and often they look very real. I can only imagine when we add say 20 years from now that aged box might look even more realistic. That includes leather holsters with U.S. on them. Brass U.S. buckles, wood cases, ammo boxes, gun boxes, cap and ball guns,. The list is endless.

I was at a buddies house last week....Big colt collector and he had some really high quality new collectables that he had won at auction recently. He wanted to show them off so after breakfast we sat down to look at them.

Most of them were awesome...I'm a nit picker and look at details closely...He knows that so he bites his nails while I looked at them.

One of his Original cased Colts had a wonderful double Eagle early Colt flask and I picked it up and said to him....I've never seen one quite like this one. He said "That's an early one"..... ( I personally stay away from flasks because they have been reproduced for many years) and I am clueless about them.

Anyway, I noticed very small print on top of the flask right next to the spout....Asked him for a jewelers loop.. In very small print it said: "MADE IN ITALY".

I've never seen anyone turn that shade of red before.

The flask was amazing and obviously a very old reproduction. If someone was to remove that small stamp it would be hand's down real!

So, let the buyer beware. All my boxes in my collection clearly show their age or I wouldn't own them.

Murph

mrcvs · #14 08-30-2021, 12:38 PM

I’m surprised, although fairly common, that Safety Hammerless revolvers don’t almost nearly often show up in their original boxes. If I bought one back in the day, I would be inclined to just put it in a nightstand drawer, box and all, unless the box and revolver wouldn’t fit in the drawer, in which case, back in the day, the box would be discarded. Especially since its purpose was self defense next to the bed probably for many folks not too savvy with firearms, in which case the instructions printed inside the lid of the box might prove very helpful.

glowe · #15 08-30-2021, 01:45 PM

Don't forget all those that were purchased as pocket revolvers. I would bet that more were carried than sat in drawers and those old boxes would have been lost to history somewhere along the road.

BMur · #16 08-30-2021, 04:26 PM

Here are a few examples of reproduction boxes out there...Granted, they are not Smith & Wesson boxes but I'm not looking for them...I'll let someone else look.

Take a good look at the quality of the box. Then imagine what the reproduction box will look like after a few years aging?

Murph

BMur · #17 08-30-2021, 04:30 PM

Notice the repro paperwork also?

In my opinion there is obviously a market for them. Therefore collectors and dealers are buying them.
I'll let you do the math as to "why" they would want to purchase a fake box?

Murph

mmaher94087 · #18 08-30-2021, 10:17 PM

To my way of looking at those reproduction boxes; they smack of reproduction. They appear too new for 100 year old and used paper. There is no patina, tears, chipped corners, abrasions or oil stains. I'm sure they smell new also. I wouldn't buy any of them as that only encourages the fakers to make more.