.38 DA 4th Model with Long Barrel

[Rambler42]

I have never seen one with this long of a barrel and target stocks. So, I placed a bid and won! I'm a very happy shooter and can't wait till the weekend to take it to the range.

[merl67]

That's a nice one right there. With that long barrel should make a fun shooter.

[Jason Demond]

What's the length? I never measured mine, but I'm thinking it's 6".



The grips on this one are standard and numbered to the gun.

[glowe]

6" was a standard barrel length for both the 32 and 38 DAs. Pretty common in the 38 but somewhat scarce in the 32. I have a 38 Perfected 6" with walnut target stocks that Roy tells me could be ordered with the gun. Probably added a dollar to the cost back then.

If I recall correctly, there were about (20% lowered to 15%) of the 38 DAs made up with a 6" barrel in the SWCA database. Since over 500,000 were made, that could mean there were maybe (100,000 corrected to 75,000) made in that barrel length.

[Rambler42]

Originally Posted by Jason Demond

What's the length? I never measured mine, but I'm thinking it's 6".



The grips on this one are standard and numbered to the gun.

Very nice! The barrel on mine is 6 inches. I have several with 4 inch, and one with 5. This was the first 6 inch I ever saw.

[glowe]

I got to my databases and have to correct the percentage of 6" made. The breakdown is as follows (plus or minus a few percentage points):

50% 3.5"
30% 5"
15% 6"
Other lengths 5% (2" & 8")

So one could extrapolate the numbers to say somewhere around 75,000 6" guns were manufactured. Another interesting statistic is that only 25% of database 38 DAs listed were blue.

[Books]

Originally Posted by glowe

I got to my databases and have to correct the percentage of 6" made. The breakdown is as follows (plus or minus a few percentage points):

50% 3.5"
30% 5"
15% 6"
Other lengths 10% (2" & 8")

So one could extrapolate the numbers to say somewhere around 75,000 6" guns were manufactured. Another interesting statistic is that only 25% of database 38 DAs listed were blue.

Check your math. You have 105% and you left out 4 & 10 inchers.

My numbers are pretty close to yours:

52% 3 1/4"
19.2% 4"
15.4% 5"
10% 6"
2.5% 2"

Additional number crunching:

78% with black hard rubber stocks
75% Nickel (overall)
84% Nickel pre-1900
about 50-50 blue & nickel after 1900.

These numbers are just for .38 top-break S&Ws.

Books

[ol777gunnerz]

Author has a very nice revolver, my only 4th model DA is Blued 32 S&W with factory lettered 8 inch barrel, shipped in 1888.

[gwpercle]

Very nice , looks to be in good condition .
My 38 S&W DA 4th model came in Blue with black hard rubber grips with a 5 inch barrel .

It belonged to my Mothers father , and is quite worn , I would call it rode hard . My Mom said that during the Great 1930's Depression in rural East Texas , her daddy used it to take small game , mainly rabbit , squirrel and armadillo ... she said " If it hadn't been for the small game he killed with that gun the eight of us would have starved slap to death ."
Being a blacksmith the old man made a few curved knives to get under the armadillo shells when cleaning them ... I would just as soon have one of his armadillo knives ... but mom said she didn't have one .
Gary

[glowe]

Originally Posted by Books

Check your math. You have 105% and you left out 4 & 10 inchers . . .

Yes, the last category should be 5%. I posted too early in the day for math problems. There were only 2" and 8" in the database, plus the percentages are way to speculative to add decimal point accuracy. Most likely 5% error is the minimum one could expect with using such a small sample size.

[Books]

Originally Posted by glowe

Yes, the last category should be 5%. I posted too early in the day for math problems. There were only 2" and 8" in the database, plus the percentages are way to speculative to add decimal point accuracy. Most likely 5% error is the minimum one could expect with using such a small sample size.

I waited until after my first cup of coffee before posting.

I'm sure your sample group is much larger than mine. Interestingly; as my collection grows and I add more variants, the percentages do not vary that much.

Books

[rct269]

As a complete aside, the 38 D.A. 4th was available with target sights---as was the 5th and the Perfected Model--those being the only D.A. top breaks with target sights other than the .44's. None of the top break revolvers, other than the NM #3 series (S.A.) were particularly popular as target guns---which perhaps explains the history of a .38 S.A. 3rd (Model of '91) I had. It wasn't made as a target model, but was converted by the factory (swapped the sights and the grips) and shipped as a target following receipt of an order for same----a common practice according to Jinks.

Ralph Tremaine

[glowe]

You are right about the Model of 1891, but since many frames ended up with the single barrel installed, they did achieve a great deal of favor as a Single Shot pistol. Some were put together in a combination set.

I have a lettered Model of 1891 that was shipped as a 5" target revolver and over time, I added a 38-44 Single Shot barrel put into a kind of replica combination set. Great fun to shoot either as a revolver of single shot.

The Model of 1891 was often called a miniature New Model 3, since they were almost identical, scaled down single action version of the famous large frame revolver often found with target sights as Ralph mentioned. The large frame targets may have been more common than the 38 1891 target revolver since few of the smaller guns show up with factory target sights. You will notice that Roy does not call the gun a "Target" revolver, but rather the fact that it was shipped with a target rear sight.

[BMur]

I don't know where you all are getting your numbers from?

The 8" and 10" barrels for the Double action revolvers represent "LESS THAN" 1% of total production....In fact a decimal point of 1%... They are classified as "extremely rare".


Example: If you have 500,000 guns manufactured and you have a survey of say 500 guns? Your accuracy is very low as far as variations of barrel lengths produced.

With that many guns manufactured you would need factory records.

Unless we believe that thousands of 8" and 10" barrrels were made on the double action frames?

If say 500 were made? Which I personally doubt... That would be less than 1/10 th of a percent if we include all models of 32 and 38 calibers. They are "Extremely Rare".

Basic Math here guys.

Generally speaking when you conduct a research survey? You must account for no less than 5% of production in order to be perceived as plausible.

So 500,000 production requires no less than 25,000 guns surveyed. An author friend has 36,000 guns surveyed for Colt Pocket 49’s on his data base. Took him 26 years to achieve that “ With” access to factory records!



Murph

[glowe]

Read the posts!! The numbers are stated as estimates and so subject to error. The source was the SWCA database that has was started 20 years ago for all types of S&W revolvers from Model 1 through the early model numbers. The barrel lengths in the 5% class are all non-standard barrel lengths, 2", 2 1/2", 8", 10" etc. Those barrel lengths end up being 5% of the total. The error rate was stated at a minimum of 5%, so there could be anywhere from zero to 10%.

We do not have access to production or shipping logs so the next best things are the databases kept by collectors and the association. Even if there was access to those logs, no one would have the time or money to place millions of revolvers in a database.

[gwpercle]

Originally Posted by glowe

Yes, the last category should be 5%. I posted too early in the day for math problems. There were only 2" and 8" in the database, plus the percentages are way to speculative to add decimal point accuracy. Most likely 5% error is the minimum one could expect with using such a small sample size.

I know what you mean ... you need at least three cups of coffee before trying to do anything with numbers .
Personally I think math is very over rated ... it was my worst subject in school ... I even flunked out of " Remedial " math in college ... she passed me the second try ... I attended every class and turned in all my assignments and she felt sorry for me and said attendance and trying counted towards my grade ...Bless Her Heart !.
My Casio MS80B calculator has gotten me through life .
Gary

[BMur]

The point of my post was not to correct an error in estimated total production. It's a focus on rarity and value.

The question being "how rare are the 8" and 10" barrel lengths on the double action top breaks? Mr. Jinks titles them "Extremely Rare"in this book. When we simply follow production without any estimates? They didn't even start producing them until 1887 and then in very limited production.

So, if a collector has one in his/her collection? They don't even rate as a percentage of production that's how rare they are. So, that's "ALL" I am trying to say.

The only "Error" I personally care about is "HOW RARE ARE THEY"? Which translates to value on the collectable market. They are quiet valuable.



Murph