Good day all. Well, I had nice surprise show up in today's mail. I'd bought a S&W Mod.3 Navy in .44 Russian. Having one already that you gentlemen had been so kind in helping me with, I came across a deal that I could not pass up. This one is later production than my first one, but the half cock seems to work just fine, unlike my other pistol. Mechanically, it's excellent. Advance, timing, and lock-up are flawless and there's no slop in the top latch or the cylinder when it's in battery. I found a stamp on the left side of the barrel which I hope one you good folks could clarify for me. As you'll note in the pic, it says "US Armory Ctg." BTW, this one is serial numbered #28456. The grips are obviously replacements but the cylinder chambers are lovely and there is very slight and stabilized pitting in the bore. I'm very happy right now!
Addendum: I just noticed that on the right side of the barrel is what appears to be a poorly stamped "SMI" or "SMII".

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S&W New Model Navy .44DA was made Oct. 10, 1890, as part of a production run of 2,500 blue revolvers. The barrel stampings are an after market application by a previous owner and not factory. The "SII' may be his initials ? Ed.

Thank you Ed. Odd place to stamp initials, don't you think? And, why the "US Armory C.T.G." stamp. I'm pretty sure it's "SMII", but with the overstamp it's kind of hard to make out.

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Have you checked the chamber caliber? Wasn't the US Armory cartridge the .45 Frankfort?

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Yes, That's odd, as the .44Russian was never a military round. Having said that, check to see if a past owner didn't bore out the gun to take "US Armory Ctg " .45 Schofields ? Ed

I compared my newly acquired pistol against my old one. There's a difference of 4 thou in cylinder length, but a .431 soft cast bullet pushed into the muzzle goes in to the same depth on both pistols so I don't think that would happen if one was in .45. Both cylinders have the step in the chamber for .44 Russian and a loaded round goes in to both with no slop in the fit. Thank you for the caution. I never would have thought to compare dimension between the two pistols otherwise. To my admittedly novice eye and from what I've measured, I'm pretty certain they're both chambered in .44 Russian. I wonder if the "SMII" stamp might be for a club or organization of some sort? I'd love it if one of the members could give me a definitive answer to those barrel stamps. Could the "SMII" be something something Military Institute?

It was suggested to me that I contact Smith & Wesson and see if their records show to whom the pistol was shipped. My feeling is that if was a special order for a shooting/military organization, that may be an option. If , however, the pistol was purchased from a normal retailer, than I'd just be wasting my money. Your thoughts guys?

In my opinion the owner simply had the gun stamped with a cartridge that fit and functioned in the gun...Considering that these early top breaks were NOT caliber stamped. Tends to leave one guessing?

The Armory reference is likely the 44 American cartridge that was actually manufactured at the Frankford Arsenal for a very short period of time when the U.S. Army had approximately 1000 early 44 American Smith & Wesson revolvers in stock. They are also often referenced in the 1874 pistol trials. So, I think they qualify as an Armory reference since they were in fact tested by the U.S. Army and adopted in limited quantities.

Early 44 American rounds were outside lubricated but would chamber in the Russian 44 chamber and function with original black powder loads. I wouldn't recommend it but there really wasn't a lot of reference material for folks back then.

Especially when a gun wasn't caliber marked from the factory? HMMMM,,,??? What round goes in this thing??

We keep applying modern knowledge to the "Antique ERA"? Folks struggled for information back then.

Murph

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This is for sure in .44 Russian. You may be correct about the cartridge, but I still think the "C.T.G" is an acronym, something like "Cadet Training Group" or what not. As I'd mentioned, normally the word cartridge is just abbreviated "ctg", no caps or periods. Upon reflection, my opinion is that the "SMI" stamp has a double struck "I". It looks like the first strike of the "I" was on the leg of the "M" and so the guy moved the punch over and hit it again. After I get out of fakebook jail and I'm allowed to post, I'm going to contact the American Military History Society and see if they can shed any light on the stamps.

Has anyone considered that the Revolver in question. Might be a Spanish or Mexican copy. Or even another country copy. The lack of markings make me suspicious. Is there anything on top of the barrel.

I didn't take a pic of the top of the barrel rib because I didn't feel the need. It bears all the standard S&W markings and patent dates and the serial numbers appear in the normal places I've looked, that is on the butt, the barrel latch, and the cylinder.

That is a wonderful revolver you picked up there OP! Where does one find .44 Russian ammo? I have never seen any in the shops around me.

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USMC 83'-87', NRA Member.

I was fortunate in finding this one and especially at such a good price point. There are a number of them available up here on different firearms sites and forums and in varying degrees of condition. For it's age, this one is exceptional. Fiocchi makes loaded ammo for it and though it's not thick on the ground, without too much searching I can find a vendor willing to ship. I load my own with Starline brass and Jet Bullets makes 5 different soft-cast lead bullet styles in .430-.431 specifically for the .44 Russian. I also have access to a good range of suitable propellants and lrg. pistol primers. There's another model 3 DA for sale up here (Canada) that's in basically unfired condition! If I had the money ($5900) and if it was in one of our calibers listed as "obsolete", I would have considered going into debt to buy it. Sadly, it's in .44-40 which the RCMP have deemed a "currently produced" caliber so it has to be registered and is subject to all the restrictions surrounding modern pistols in terms of transport, storage, etc. I believe in the US, to qualify as an antique it must be made prior to 1899. Up here, the cut-off date is 1898 but it must also be in a caliber listed as obsolete. So, .44-40 or .45 Colt are all restricted. But in .44 Russian, .45 Schofield, .41 Colt, .455 Webley, etc., not problem. Nuts, eh?

1898 or before is the cutoff date in the United States. Thankfully we don't have the "obsolete caliber" requirement.

As much as I love Canada, its gun laws mean that I'll never be moving back.

Mike

I'm at at impasse in my research. I've put pics up on several gun boards but I've yet to receive a solid lead. Would it be worth contacting Smith & Wesson to try to find out where it was shipped to or maybe sold? I don't know if I have curio, a genuinely valuable collectible, or just a nice shooting pistol of limited interest.

Exmilcop, any .44 DA is worth having, historically significant or not. Maybe I'm just a wee bit biased...

Agreed, 100%! I love/hate a mystery. The research can be frustrating as all get out. Some very nice DA's have come on the market here over the last few years in .44 Russian, .44 American, and .44-40. I'd just love to nail down the provenance of the stamps. It may or may not add significantly to the value. It was suggested that I contact the West Point military museum. At this stage, I'm grasping at straws. The American Military History Society was unable to be of assistance. It's a head-scratcher.

I am on the side that it might not be a S&W?? The hammer is wrong and the top latch looks different than standard? Any way to take a closeup of those two features?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Mr.Lowe, always a pleasure Sir! Here are some pics of the barrel stamp and close-ups of the latch and hammer, as requested.

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I took the liberty of photographing both pistols I have. The lower one, though much earlier production, has obviously been refurbished. The hammer spur is a little wider than the later production one (upper).

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Thanks for those detailed images. The latch now looks proper and the outline of the hammer is right. I have had early and late examples of the 44 DA and all had wide hammer spurs. Perhaps the factory offered such a hammer shape or a past owner altered it. With the top roll stamp picture, I am comfortable with it being a S&W. Chances you can figure out who put those stamps on the gun seem slim, but one never knows what will pop up. I am especially intrigued by the US Armory C.T.G. stamp which is a very obscure marking for a S&W and how many people would even know of its existence?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Interesting questions all-------------------------

It has been my experience, and I dare say the experience of many, that the value of a letter can only be determined following receipt of the letter. I recall one such letter where I let out a shriek while reading it. The Boss Lady came into my room to see what all the fuss was about and asked, "****** letter?". My response was, "Quite the contrary my dear---quite the contrary." Down toward the end it said, "This is a very important revolver."

I lettered all my guns, and that's the only one like that I ever received, but it most certainly wasn't the only good letter I ever received.

Ralph Tremaine

As with any collecting field, value is determined by scarcity not age. If the stamps are historically significant, I'd like to know. It may come to nothing or it may be of historical interest. If it is a piece of interest to a collector, it deserves to be in the hands of someone who'll appreciate that aspect of it rather than just a great condition shooter.

I would modify that slightly to "value is determined by demand."

Scarcity is a part of that, but it's not the whole story. To wit: there are some remarkably rare guns out there that aren't worth much because of low market demand. On the other hand, Colt percussions revolvers generally get good money despite being as common as pennies behind one's sofa cushions.

Mike


Mike

I doubt you would find any in shops on the shelf but Starline offers brass and some of the boutique companies do reload it in both black powder and smokeless. I load it in smokeless and find it very accurate in my reproduction modern arms made by Uberti.

You would have to order it online to get some but it is available.