I had a local gunsmith check the caliber of my Model 3, he said it was a .38 S&W. He provided a box of cartridges for it. When loaded the cartridge appears about 3/8" short of the end of the cylinder. Is this correct for this cartridge? I do not want to damage this pistol. He also assured me the rounds provided were safe for this pistol. They are lead bullets. Thanks for any response.

Welcome to the Forum. Maybe your gun is a 38-40? If there is a shoulder in the chamber, it could be a 38-40 Winchester which is a stepped cartridge based on a necked down 44-40, but the chambers would be too big to seat a 38 S&W?? Perhaps some pictures of the gun and the rear of the chamber would be helpful.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I honestly do not think there is any place you could find this out in an hour and a half. Pretty obscure information, almost instantly. 👍👍

I think the OP is talking about a double Action top break 38. Extremely common. A photo would be great.


Murph

A standard 38 S&W round with a round nose bullet is only about 1/8" shorter than the cylinder?? Is the gun a 5 or 6 shot revolver?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Here is some more information on the revolver. Barrel - 6 !/2", cylinder - 1 7/16th". The cylinder has straight bores, no shoulders.The serial number is 1258 on the butt. The last Pat.date on the barrel is July 11, 85. Sights are fixed.

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You apparently have a .38-44 Target, made for a cartridge the full length of the cylinder with bullet seated completely inside the case.

A .38 S&W won't hurt the gun, but you might not hit much, either.
I knew a collector who would plink that way.

You have a rare gun! Neal & Jinks book show that the 44 Double Action, 1st Model Target revolver came only in 44 Russian and 38-40 Winchester. If the 38 cartridge fits properly in the cylinder, it is as I opined, a 38-44 Target. That is a very special gun and one that needs a letter for sure.

The 38-44 case was 1 7/16" long and the bullet was set fully into the case. Today, you can make this case using 357 Remington Max case. I have a single shot that fits this caliber and cut down cases, then reloaded them with .361" 145 grain LRN and black powder and smokeless loads. Images show the cartridge and the actual dimensions of the case. Nice find!!

Forgot to add that the image is of two loads for this caliber. The left cartridge is for gallery shooting and had a light BP load and a round ball. The right is the standard round, full length

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thanks guys! That explains everything. Smith & Wesson says it is safe to shoot the .38 S&W in this pistol. Apparently nobody currently sells the 38-44 S&W cartridge. The round was very accurate by what I read about it. If there is a source for this round please let me know. Again - Thanks guys!

No source. Have to roll your own with this caliber. It is a very scarce caliber and never saw great popularity. The case for the 357 Remington Max is smaller than the bullet so the first loading will bulge the case slightly, but the cartridge works great.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Just a simple point, the revolver is single action. Can you explain what you mean by a letter. Although I have been around firearms all my life haven't really collected. This gun was passed down from my great uncle and cared for by my grandfather and father. It remains in very good condition.

I am sorry, I missed the cylinder configuration and trigger position. The caliber and cartridge information remains the same, but the gun is not a 44 Double Action as I guessed earlier. It actually make much more sense that it be a New Model 3, Single Action which was offered in at least 15 calibers, 38-44 S&W target round was one listed in the Jinks book. I would guess that that gun would have shipped before 1880, so is early production for that model.

As far as the letter is concerned, the Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation offers a letter of authentication that will give you information about the model and the configuration of the revolver as it left the factory. It will also list where and whom it was shipped to as it was sold. Most guns in that era were shipped to distributors, but that caliber is quite unusual and could have been ordered by an individual. Use this link to get into the SWHF section of the Forum. http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...al-foundation/ I should mention that the letter requests are on hold right now, since the backlog is now somewhere beyond 4 months, but will open up again, just keep checking.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

IIRC
The target models (38-44/32-44) were not available until the mid/late 1880's.
Yours probably early 1890's

Couple of things stated by the OP made me believe an early gun? Serial number 1258 and a short cylinder means it likely was made around or before 1885 unless there was a different serial number range for the 32-44 & 38-44 Targets? Did the NM3 restart serial numbers for the 32-44 and 38-44 target guns using inventory parts?

There is evidence that the short cylinder was replaced on the 44 Russian not long after the 44-40 Frontier was introduced. There have been 1880s long cylinder/frame guns in 44 Russian serial number range. Theory is that shortly after the 44-40 Frontier was introduced, the factory decided to have only one frame and cylinder forged, so there were long cylinder 44 Russians much earlier than Roy opined. Maybe there were lots of short cylinders/frames in inventory and they used them up with a new serial number range and for the odd-ball calibers???
I browsed through the content in the book and could not find mention of another serial number range for the NM3?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

"..unless there was a different serial number range for the 32-44 & 38-44 Targets?" These Target Models were serial numbered in their own range beginning with SN #1.

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Mike Maher #283

Nice gun.
Actually the Target variations were introduced in 1887 beginning with the 32-44. With the serial number in the 1200 range I would guess 1890’s.
Early targets have 1 7/16th cylinder lengths. Later serial numbers have the longer cylinder 1 9/16th.
Very accurate shooters with the correct case length but if you shoot the standard 38 Smith & Wesson you will never achieve “Target accuracy”. It will work but not that nail driving result.


Murph

Wish I had said that

Cool gun!

Using the relatively common .38 S & W in a .38-44 Target chambered gun is analogous to using .38 Special in a .357 (if you have any experience with more modern revolvers). Accuracy may be indifferent to pretty good depending on how much the long bullet jump from the case mouth to the forcing cone affects it. Range report!

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Just a curious question from a non-collector: While no one has specifically mentioned it, (but based upon comments above) can we assume that this gun's $$$ value is extremely high?

THANKS,
J.

Alan,
Actually, there is a significant difference between shooting a .38 SW round in the 38-44 Target revolver chamber as compared to the .38 Special in the .357 Mag chamber.


The difference is the .357 Mag. chamber still has a case stop and chamber throat that acts to stabilize the bullet "prior" to contacting the forcing cone.

The 38-44 Target "short cylinder" has no case stop or "chamber throat. Therefore the bullet is not stabilized prior to impacting the forcing cone. Which would result in a different result from each chamber.

Definitely not match loading results. Even with factory loaded ammo. The angle of impact on the forcing cone would vary. Therefore, target impact would also vary. An exaggerated description would be a variance in bullet wobble but honestly, that's what would happen.

Murph

For antique guns, you probably need a different gunsmith!

Ivan

It's not low -- that's for sure.

I'd wager somewhere in the mid four figures. Curious to hear other estimates from those that buy and sell more of the NM3's.

Mike

I agree Mike.
$3,000- $5,000 ( looks like it’s got a lot of original bluing) with a letter to back it up in its present finish. A letter in my opinion is an absolute for Target Guns. Just my opinion.
More value if the letter comes back as sent to an interesting individual.( known target shooter?) You never know.

Murph

Thank you all for the invaluable information on this firearm.
Here is a summary of what you have all contributed to.
" S & W New model 3 Target, single action, chambered in 38-44 s&w, 6 1/2" barrel, 1 7/16" cylinder, adjustable sights, hard rubber grip, Serial # 1258 (on butt and under sight), last patent Dec. 18,1877. Cartridge is obsolete, but can be reproduced. Will fire a .38 s&w but with very poor accuracy due to space between bullet and forcing cone. Overall the pistol is in very good condition, all parts are tight and in firing condition, The finish has about 60% of it's bluing intact. To my knowledge it has not been fired in nearly 100 years although it has been handed down and cared for by 3 generations, each keeping it clean and oiled. It was appraised by a reputable collector between 1800 and 2100. It will likely go to my nephew who loves guns and I know it will continue to be cared for.
Thanks again guys!!

While it's an assumption that the .38 S&W cartridge will produce poor grouping, you won't really know until you fire some. Something else that might be better (if you are a handloader) is to make up some very mild handloads using .38 Special hollow base wadcutter bullets in .357 Magnum brass, which is substantially longer than .38 S&W cases. The hollow based bullets will expand under pressure to fill the .361 bore. If you decide to use .357 Maximum cases, I believe that they are a little too long and would require trimming to length. You could probably make up some round ball gallery loads using .375 round lead balls, as used in .36 cap and ball revolvers, in .357 cases. Those should be fun to shoot. It would also be very easy to make up some wax bullet loads in .357 cases, using only the primer as a propellant.

The 'New Model 3' .38 - 44 has no Forcing Cone.

Here is what it looks like at the end of the Barrel - the Cartridge was full Cylinder Length, leaving only the Cylinder 'Gap', no Forcing cone was used -

Hosted on Fotki

Can you post some close-ups of the front Sight?

As I understand it, S&W did not use forcing cones on barrels of any models prior to 1922.

Forcing cones on S&W barrels did not exist until the engineering order of August 22, 1922 mandated the forcing cone for HE's.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Match loading is a focus on "matching" bullet to bore, powder to primer, case to chamber, etc. If you eliminate or bypass any of these factors you are not match loading and your results at the target "will vary"...In other words, accuracy will suffer. That's not my opinion.

So, in this case if you try using the .38 S&W in the 38-44 "TARGET" revolver? You are NOT match loading since the case length doesn't even come close to matching the chamber. Which will translate to variations in bullet transition upon discharge from the chamber into the barrel. That location , whatever you want to call it, plays a monumental role in bullet transition from chamber to bore. If things aren't perfect in the chamber to begin with, that transition will cause inaccuracy at the target.

A target revolver is done a tremendous injustice when you don't match load. That is what this gun was designed for. TARGET SHOOTING! NOT BUBBA SHOOTING.

I'm talking about hitting a golf ball at 20 yards consistently. If hitting a soft ball at 20 yards is OK with you then You don't understand the concept of Target Shooting.



Murph

So after all the attention, I decided to give the revolver a good cleaning. After a number of coats of No.9, a box of q-tips and much elbow grease, I managed to remove years and years of old oil & grime. It looks almost new now, there is much more bluing left than I thought close to 70% I think. The patent information on the barrel can now be clearly read as well as both serial # locations. The barrel bore is almost pristine not a pit to be found, shines like a mirror. Included a pic and also one of the front sight somebody wanted.

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Thanks for the response. I am currently on a quest to find someone who can make the 38-44 cartridge, they have been obsolete for 100 years. One post included the specs to recreate this round. According to what I learned the bullet was seated into the cartridge, the cartridge extended to the end of the cylinder. This made for a very accurate revolver, the bullet exiting from the cartridge directly into the barrel. It woud be really cool to see what it would do on a target range. I understand the revolver still holds several target records.

Looking good!

Be sure and Oil up the Mechanism and Cylinder Arbor and Ejector Arbor, and Frame 'Knuckle' Joint and so on, too!


Front Sight looks to be a plain Commercial one, rather than a Target Sight.

Hard to guess if this was Ordered to be this way, or, if the original Target Sight had been replaced with a plain Sight.

"I am currently on a quest to find someone who can make the 38-44 cartridge, they have been obsolete for 100 years."

Undoubtedly you could find someone to make up some 38-44 cartridges using .357 Max brass that will at least go bang, but there is far more to it than that if you want ultimate performance. Assuming your serious goal is, for whatever reason, to produce small groups centered on the target using its original sights, you should expect that it may require considerable load experimentation (and range time) using different bullet designs and weights, propellants (including black powder and BP substitutes), bullet seating depths, and charge weights. Unless you intend to do match shooting with it, and don't mind the expense and learning curve of getting into reloading yourself, it may not be worth the time, effort, and expense it will require. You would be better off getting a more modern target-quality revolver if that's what you want to do. If all you want to do is make noise, then just use .38 S&W cartridges.

Elaborating a bit on the posting below, the .357 case is a little undersized in diameter for your chamber, but they will work. The proper thing to do is to first fire form the brass to your chamber, then reload it using .38 S&W-caliber dies. I am not sure exactly how bullet seating would be best done, but I could come up with something if I had to. And indeed, the bullet diameter should be around 0.361" which is slightly larger than the widely available .38 Special/.357 Magnum lead bullets. They are available, but the selection is very limited. One solution which I previously suggested is to try using .357 hollow base full wadcutter bullets which will expand to fill the bore.

There's no good solution for that...

One can enlarge and trim .357 Maximum Brass, but .357 Maximum Cartridge is a smaller diameter, so enlarging most of it's length is all one can do, and the Cartridge Base remains too small.

I myself was going to do that, but then I was fortunate enough to find a couple Boxes of empty .38 - 44 Brass, so I got lucky and it all got a lot simpler.

Bullets are supposed to be .361 or maybe .360, so right Moulds are important if one wishes to have things right.

If you can find some period Brass and are good to go for Loading Black Powder and so on, I'd be glad to send you some Bullets if you wanted.

No, everyone had Forcing cones in the Cap & Ball Revolver era, and this stayed on with the advent of Metallic Cartridge.

The only Revolvers I know of which did not have Forcing Cones, were the S & W 'New Model 3" Target Models in the 38 - 44 and .320 Revolving Rifle Chambering...Or, the old Nagant Revolver also, with their "Cylinder Length" Cartridges.

There is a very good article by RVB Precision on how to make this cartridge including detailed specs and pictures.

I have a late NM3 38-44 Target with long cylinder and it is NOT bored straight through like yours with the short cylinder length. Mine has a slight throat and case stop. With the longer cylinder the frame is also longer and distance between the front and rear sight is also a bit longer.
The best performance I’ve found is from early target Wadcutters called sharp shoulders and the first known Semi-Wadcutter introduced in about 1905. They are both .360 diameter and are nail drivers at 20 yards with full loads of black powder.

See photos of Ideal bullets and mold numbers. They can be found if you simply look!

I’ve tried hollow based Wadcutters and the results were below what I will except from a target gun. Also, original round nose target bullets are very temperamental so I’m not one to waste time trying to make something work when I’ve already achieved target accuracy.
You might see different results from the shorter frame and cylinder On the earlier target variation.

Murph

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It is unusual to have a standard front sight on a target model

iby,
Mine also has a replacement front sight with a standard front sight like the OP's gun. Notice his gun has a front sight with nickel plating visible? Suggests it's not original.

We can speculate as to why someone would replace the original target front sight with a standard sight but in my opinion the target sights are pretty delicate and easily damaged, bent, etc.

Also, when I purchased my 38-44 someone had been shooting smokeless 38 special's in it. You could clearly see the signature in the chambers. Original ammo would have been hard to find even many years ago so these guns have seen a lot of abuse and the chambering of the wrong rounds in my opinion. Unless, like the Op's they've been in the family but the front sight sure looks to have been replaced.

Using the wrong ammo? The target sights would be worthless.


Murph

In my truly humble opinion, I would not screw-around shooting such a valuable piece of history. And I would especially not trust someone's reloads in anything that I own. Please think about it..!!! What you have is a treasure despite the significant $$$$ value. It would be a shame to damage it.

J.

Not what I have been told. I only know about S&W forcing cones and have the following note in my reference materials.

Forcing cones on S&W barrels did not exist until the engineering order of August 22, 1922 mandated the forcing cone for HE's.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Try looking to any pre 1922 Smith & Wesson Revolver and you can see the Forcing Cone.

All of my 1880s, 1890s, 19-ohs, 19-teens S & W Revolvers have Forcing cones, other than for the 'New Model 3' Target Models when chambered in .32 - 44 and .38 -44.

I have several pre-1922s that do not have forcing cones and some that have either erosion of the throat or done later in life.

Here are a couple threads from the past to review.

Early 38 Regulation Police

What does an ideal forcing cone look like?


There are, however, many images out there where the author simply points to the section of the barrel inside the cylinder window and calls it a forcing cone, but my understanding is that it is the cone that is cut into the breech at a small angle somewhere around 10 degrees that widen the entry of the bullet into the barrel. It removes the rifling at the very rear of the barrel.

There are also the thoughts out there that when forcing cones started, S&W stopped installing the fouling cup under the top frame. I have not checked this out on my K frames, but know that at some point the fouling cup was abandoned. A video demonstrating the installation of a forcing cone on a 32 HE.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Well, it is said that when evaluating the .22 Hand Ejector (Ladysmith), one needs to check for a cracked forcing cone, in case someone in the past fired .22LR rounds in it. Mine shipped in 1902, two decades before the date you cite.

The definition of a forcing cone is:

The rear entrance of the barrel where the bullet transitions from the cylinder chamber to the barrel.

There is no distinction regarding taper or the lack of rifling.

Target guns tend to have rifling "all the way" to the bitter end of the barrel for increased accuracy. However, there is always a slight taper if one looks closely.

Why anyone would want to MILL a more defined taper into the rear of the barrel is beyond me. Rings of the gun having "slop" in the action and poorly lining up or locking up. So....you mill a wider taper to fix the sloppy cylinder line up so it won't shave lead?

I suppose that would be easier than tightening up the action.


Murph

So what is the definition of "cone"?? Without taper somewhere there can be no cone. Take a look at the Masterpiece line. Tapered cone inside the barrel eliminating the rifling for the first 1/8" and the same on a 1941 M&P Target I just looked at.

Forcing cones eliminate bullet shaving, a common problem with pre-WWI S&Ws. Flat breach, with lands smaller diameter than the lead bullet entering it cause slivers to fly out both sides of the gap. Many early guns had cones added to solve the problem, not because of wear, but because there is not a proper transition between cylinder and barrel.

I shoot pre-1910 pristine M&Ps and most of them spit lead. No big deal unless you are standing in front of the cylinder.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Shaving lead is most often caused by "lack of lubrication"...It doesn't mean there is something wrong with the gun. I think that's why these internet modifiers sell these fix all tools to people who like to "blame the tool". It's always a good idea to apply a soft lube to a lead bullet prior to shooting. NOT just in the lube grooves but over the cone as well.

Same goes with leading a barrel..."Operator error"...Lube the bullet and by some miracle the leading stops....the spitting stops.... I always apply a soft lube prior to shooting "all" my guns. Just depends on what gun I'm shooting as to what type of lubrication to apply.

Your accuracy will "JUMP" up as well.

That's a old target shooters trick and it works!

Revolvers love grease. Especially antique revolvers.


Murph