S & W Safety Hammerless

workinprogress · #1 11-23-2021, 03:31 PM

My mother found a gun while cleaning out my grandmother's house. She is kind of gun-phobic and just wanted to be rid of it and I was more than happy to have it. From what little research I have done, I believe I have a S & W Safety Hammerless. It seems there were a few different versions of it, 1 a .32 and 1 a .38. I keep running across the term "Lemon Squeezer" which appears to be reference to the grip safety, which is a neat feature one source said was added to the design for the purpose of keeping the gun from discharging when dropped from a horse, as the calvary was one of the main ways fighting was done in the time period the gun was manufactured in. Very interesting, if true. It is a top break revolver.

I consider myself to be a moderately capable gun guy. I have several modern hand guns and long guns and I maintain them all myself. I don't have any issues breaking guns down for cleaning and lubrication, but a restoration project is new territory for me. I gather that this gun is no sought after collector's piece and is worth little money, but it was my Grandfather's and as such I consider it to be a family heirloom. Besides, it's a cool little gun! I would appreciate an education from those of you in the know regarding exactly what I have. For instance: In what year was it manufactured? What caliber is it? What type of ammunition does it take? Is it even safe to shoot it? What are some things I need to know and learn about if I attempt to restore it?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Wiregrassguy · #2 11-23-2021, 03:48 PM

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! That is a 32 Safety Hammerless made in 1888. It's a first model and probably one of the first guns made. These guns were never used by the military. The hand grip safety was designed to keep kids from shooting other kids. If it's in good condition oh, you can shoot 32 S & W in it.

gmborkovic · #3 11-23-2021, 05:29 PM

Hello OP, you mentioned restoration? To what extent?

gmborkovic · #4 11-23-2021, 05:32 PM

Hello Guy, where did you read about the grip safety was for preventing kids from shooting each other?

mojave30cal · #5 11-23-2021, 05:44 PM

Welcome to the S&W Forums. That's a neat little gun, and it
belonged to your grandmother! That's awesome. I wish I had
an heirloom like that. According to the Standard Catalog of
Smith & Wesson, 4th. Edition, there were 91,417 of those
firearms manufactured from 1888 to 1902. They don't have
much value because of how many they made. The condition
also affects value. But, for a 133 year old gun, it's amazing
it survived to this day. It has lots of history, and restoring it
would void that. If it were mine, I would clean it up, oil it
and if you wanted to shoot it, have a competent gunsmith
check it out. You can find ammo on the internet.

Good luck!

ISCS Yoda · #6 11-23-2021, 05:56 PM

I'm so glad folks are advising you to not restore it. Old guns, well used, deserve respect for their history. Clean and lube, sure. Restoration? Nope. Shoot it? After you know it's okay to do so - a gunsmith will tell you.

gmborkovic · #7 11-23-2021, 06:45 PM

What gunsmith on the face of this earth is going to tell you an ole piece of iron is safe to shoot? If you know one, run away!

Club Gun Fan · #8 11-23-2021, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmborkovic

Hello Guy, where did you read about the grip safety was for preventing kids from shooting each other?

If you have a copy of "HISTORY OF SMITH & WESSON" by Roy Jinks, read page 135.

Kinman · #9 11-23-2021, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan

If you have a copy of "HISTORY OF SMITH & WESSON" by Roy Jinks, read page 135.

Don, Thank you, I knew I had also read that information before. I also totally disagree that these fine old firearms are unsafe to operate, if in good mechanical condition and shooting proper ammunition they are as good as the day they were designed and manufactured.

mmaher94087 · #10 11-23-2021, 11:03 PM

OP, the discrepancy in serial number ranges is that there were multiple variations of the .32 Safety Hammerless. Yours is a first model of which 91,417 were made. The total of all models was 325,000+. Please do not restore it. The dings, prangs and scratches are its Badge of Honor for the years of service.

H Richard · #11 11-24-2021, 11:18 AM

After a good cleaning and lube a wax finish with a good non-yellowing wax such as Renaissance Wax will clean lightly polish, and protect the finish for many years. A shadow box if a great way to display the gun. These are some Safety Hammerless that I had.

glowe · #12 11-24-2021, 12:42 PM

Welcome to the Forum. A couple of things to refine here. Your 32 Safety is worth less than $150 and if you try to "restore" the gun chances are that it will scream refinish and worth less than if left original. Family heirlooms are worth keeping in the family and keep as you received it. Just think about the fact that maybe 3 or 4 generations have owned or handled this revolver and put all that honest wear on your little Safety Hammerless. It is worth your time to document what your grandmother knows and research as far back as it can be traced for any future generations you pass it down with all you found.

There are actually two caliber cartridges that will fit your cylinder, but I would advise that you use only one of them. This gun fires "32 S&W" ammo, but 32 ACP will fit and be promoted by some. Pressure of 32 ACP can be as high as 30% more than currently loaded 32 S&W. Keep looking and you will eventually find a box of the right ammo here and there. Remington, Winchester, and European manufactures still make this caliber, with the Europeans often calling it 32 Corto (Short).

This caliber S&W always has been low value, based on the fact that almost a quarter-million were made, they were chambered in a very anemic caliber, and many owners stuffed them in a drawer for decades and a high percentage survived. About the only 32 Safety that has appreciated in the past few years is a much less common 6" barrel length example. 6" is scarce, since this model's appeal was primarily purchased as a pocket/purse revolver and a long barrel ended up with little interest from the buying public. They would be tough to conceal easily.

S & W Safety Hammerless-p1010019-jpg

cmansguns · #13 11-24-2021, 01:50 PM

I have only 1 of these and it has no family history, and is of very little value to me financially (about $75 worth of trading material), but I like it for display and old-time uniqueness even though mine is drastically cosmetically challenged to say the least.

These guns will NOT chamber modern 32 S&W Long as you can see from the pic below, and while 32 S&W Short center fire is probably available, I'm hesitant to buy any even though my gun is lubed good, mechanically very tight and sound.

The guns were made in the Black Powder era, transitioning to smokeless around 1900 so I'm not sure of the effects of 100+ years on the bores and steel of these examples.

Additional feature (drawback for me) is the fact that I can barely get my trigger finger in that trigger guard and I have only average hands, not meaty bear paws so fingers must have been thinner or more delicate in those days.

Anyway......yours with its known family heritage is for sure a keeper. Congrats to your Mom for thinking of you before trashing the gun.

Enjoy it.

workinprogress · #14 11-26-2021, 08:51 AM

I really want to thank you all for the wealth of information. I want to treat is as a family heirloom and display it proudly and tell stories about the gun itself and it's place in my family's history. I was telling my 18yo son about the gun and flowed into some discussion about his Great Grandfather who he never had the privilege of knowing. As a typical 18yo, very few things seem to warrant his attention. He was completely engrossed in our conversation. It was just a nice moment.

I also appreciate the perspective on not restoring the gun. I have no experience dealing with antique guns and just made the assumption the logical thing to do to respect it's history was to restore it. I have ordered a tube of Flitz and a small jar of Renaissance Wax. I'm assuming I can find some Youtube videos that will walk me through the dissasembly process. I have on hand good quality gun cleaning and lubrication products. Any other suggestions about this process are welcome.

Regarding shooting the gun, it is really not a priority for me. I have handguns that are better suited than this one for every reason I have handguns, from concealed carry to target shooting. However, with one noted dissenter, it seems the general consensus is that as long as this gun is thoroughly inspected and properly functioning, that it can be safely shot. Thanks to you guys, I know for certain precisely what kind of ammunition to use in the gun. There is no rush, but I will be on the lookout for a box of ammo and if at some point in the future I choose to shoot the gun, I will do so feeling comfortable about having all of the boxes checked to know that I am doing it safely.

glowe · #15 11-26-2021, 11:00 AM

If your 18 year-old was interested in your stories, just think what fun they would have shooting the Safety revolver just as their great-grandfather did as well. Temporary problem is that ammo is next to impossible to buy, but keep looking for some Remington or Winchester brands.

Much of what is reported about how unsafe pre-1900 revolvers are is that some were damaged during the early years of smokeless powder when people who reloaded, simply filled their cases with the new powder just as they did with Black Powder resulting in 3 or 4 times the recommended amount used. I started out reloading at a time when many pre-1900s ammunition had ceased production. Proper research and testing resulting in obtaining the knowledge of both how to properly reload, learn the properties of vintage BP ammunition, and what ammunition makers were doing to recreate these vintage calibers with smokeless.

Smith & Wesson started stamping boxes in the early 1900s stating they would not guarantee their products with smokeless powder, but before 1910 they reversed their position, certainly after much testing and research of the new powders on the market. One must remember that a Safety revolver made before or after 1899 was the same gun as made after 1900. Top latch, which is the weakest point of any top-break revolver, saw the same amount of contact with the frame throughout production and only the means of opening devices changed.

One statement often made was that the strength of steel back in the 1800s was too low to allow for the use of smokeless powders today.

Ultimate Strength
40,000 psi Pre-1850 Wrought iron
60,000 psi 1860s
64,000 psi 1879
Same 1906
66,000 psi 1912
Same 1936
Same 1948

Taking a very conservative look at standard steel working strength, it is generally 25% of ultimate strength, so early steel would have a working pressure of 15,000 psi. 1880 steel would have a working pressure of 16,000 psi, but would only improve to 16,500 psi by 1948. All these working pressures were above the stated limits of both 32 S&W and 38 S&W. Also, steel strength does not change with time, except when it is thinned by corrosion or receives stresses beyond allowable at regular intervals.

Second, some say that smokeless pressures are too high for pre-1900 firearms. Again, testing tells the tale. Reality is that BP velocities were the highest velocities and felt recoil of any loadings tested, often original 38 S&W factory BP loads, for example, would easily drive a 145g bullet over 700 fps. Today's manufactures average less than 600 fps. Second, tested velocities show a large and consistent difference between original BP and modern smokeless factory loads. Averaging velocity tests on both vintage BP loads and current standard manufacture 32 S&W & 38 S&W commercial loadings yields near a 20% reduction in velocities using "modern" ammo.

38 S&W
Remington 145g LRN Vintage BP. . . . . . . . . 748fps
Winchester 145g LRN Vintage BP. . . . . . . . . 685fps
My reloads 145 LRN 15g 4F BP . . . . . . . . . .720fps
Remington 145g LRN Factory Smokeless . . . 537fps
Winchester 145g LRN Factory Smokeless . . . 615fps
PPU 145g LRN Factory Smokeless. . . . . . . . .599fps

32 S&W
Peters 88g BP Vintage BP. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .740fps
US Cartridge 85g Vintage BP . . . . . . . . . . . .800fps
Remington 88g Modern Factory . . . . . . . . . .580fps

So people reloading with BP are actually applying higher pressures to their guns than buying today’s ammo or reloading to lower velocities. Easy to understand since what manufacturer would want to load at higher pressures today, knowing that most of these calibers out there are top-break revolvers. Minimize velocities, minimizes liability and still puts holes in paper at any speed.

All this is undoubtedly boring reading for most and I have made these comments before, but it is fact based reality. I have yet to find anyone who states the opposite to document their positions, so if you want to shoot the Safety once and awhile, you should be able to do it with Remington or Winchester commercial ammo.

BMur · #16 11-26-2021, 09:47 PM

I’ve studied reloading equipment in depth and the simple truth is there was no reloading equipment commercially made specifically for smokeless powder pistol loads until the 1920’s!

Anyone who attempted to load smokeless prior to that time for pistols was “ Asking for it”! Oh sure, I’ve found loads listed but where are the tools?

Smith & Wesson reloading tools made until 1912 carried black powder scoops only!

Ideal field loaders “ Always” carried only black powder scoops until 1916 when Marlin stopped making them!

All early iron powder measures were for black powder only!

The earliest powder scale for reloaders was commercially available in 1923!

You “must have” a loading data chart for any fixed scoops or powder measures in order to safely load smokeless powder! Early smokeless powder was DuPont, Kings, Bullseye. All were different density which means you can’t use the same scoop!

Fixed bench mounted powder measures must also have a micro measure device to adjust for the specific Smokeless powder being used or you will not be able to measure the various density loads accurately or safely!

See photos. All Ideal scoops until the 1920’s were black powder only!

I have documented target loads as early as 1904 using Bullseye powder but I have no idea what bullseye powders explosive content rating or burn rate was in 1904. Nor do I have a clue how they safely measured the powder by weight? They must have used a pharmacist drug scale? Who knows?

If someone knows of a Pre-1920 “smokeless powder “ measure? I’d sure like to see one! Clue me in cuz I sure can’t find one! Ideal catalogs in the late 1930’s were still selling black powder measures and recommended the micro scale to adjust for smokeless loads.

This research basically means that the vast majority of pistol shooters prior to the 1920’s were buying factory loaded smokeless boxed rounds! Which was readily available.

With all the research in early reloading? I honestly believe folks were blowing up pistols because they didn’t know they were loading smokeless to begin with. Powder was powder before smokeless. Oh sure F or FF or FFF etc but you could get away with being ignorant with black. NO WAY with smokeless!

Note: 20-40% of the U.S. population in 1900 couldn’t read or write! I wonder what percentage could comprehend loading data well enough to load smokeless safely back then?

Murph