I have a fully functional Model 3 that has been reamed (poorly) to 44 Russian. I have fired this revolver a limited number of times without issue and there were no marks on the fired cases, nor were there any extraction issues as a result of the reaming.

The gun has been refinished and i am not certain that the serial number stamped on the butt is the correct serial number. I am certain that this number was stamped after the latest refinish, whenever that was. I cannot find any other serial numbers on the gun.

I might like to upgrade this to a similar model in better condition so I would be interested in some opinions on its value should I decide to sell it to help fund its replacement.

Thank you.

Robert

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Without intending insult, I do not feel that your revolver has any resale value whatsoever--not because of its condition, but because of that serial number.
I believe that your gun began life as a #3 American 2nd Model, although due to the amount of heavy polishing I can't tell for certain if the trigger pin is larger than the stop pin; The serial number is in the proper range for this type, or for a #3 American Transitional ("Leftovers") if the trigger pin is the same size as the stop pin, due to the interlocking hammer and barrel latch.
However, the placement, the configuration, the font, and the size of that 'serial number' is just wrong on all counts; If this wasn't an antique, it would be a contraband item subject to seizure under Federal law, and may very well be an illegal 'firearm' despite its antique status in certain less-liberal jurisdictions, especially as it now chambers a commercially-available cartridge.
I would not attempt to sell this piece to anyone. Keep it, don't flaunt its spurious serial number to anyone in Officialdom, and find yourself a nice, unmutilated version that you can show off with pride.

Do not think the BATF would even look twice at that number. Rules are that the gun frame must have a serial number and there is one, so . . . ? Besides, this is an antique gun, not subject to BATF regulations or even in their jurisdiction. It is not considered a "firearm" by their standards.

For me, there are bigger problems with the gun than the serial number. The barrel has been cut, the gun has been refinished, the stocks are not original, and the cylinder has been worked on. Value is very low, one might get $400 for the gun, unless someone bought it not knowing anything about S&W Americans.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

It's value is as a parts gun to donate same to restore/repair a correct revolver. The addition of the broken lanyard ring on the butt wiped out the original serial number stamping, however the replaced digits may be the original ones. Are you sure there are no numbers under the barrel latch, rear of the barrel between the "ears" or on the rear of the cylinder ?

I can't find any other numbers anywhere, the plating is pretty thick...hard to believe that a fully functional 140 year old revolver from Smith and Wesson is only worth $400 or being parted out.. I would buy as many as I could find in this condition for $400.

Thank you for your input.

Robert

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

To me a gun is only as old as its latest major modification.
Chopping the barrel, reaming the cylinder and buffing/replating all qualify as major modifications.......

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Robert.
If I am not mistaken, your gun is considered to be an "antique" and not subject to any regulations such a remarked serial #
If you list this on an internet site (GB?GI?etc) you will surely get more than $400
This forum is not the place to ask for values unless you want to know what values were sometime in the last century

Without doing any voluminous research, I picked as an example one of the worst states, New York; New York Penal Code 265.00 (14) classifies this item as a FIREARM, not an antique, as it chambers a commercially-available cartridge. As such, it is subject to the same regulation as a Glock 19. With an altered/spurious/undocumented serial number, it is CONTRABAND, and it is a felony to possess it. There are certain to be similar laws in other jurisdictions.

Such being the case, selling it to an unknowing party would be unethical, and selling it or transferring it at all perhaps criminal.

But, you do you; I wouldn't have it in my possession.

It truly is an amazing reality in this country when you cross State lines? You originate in a State where gun laws are lax and open carry is legal. Then you drive across a State line and your credentials are instantly voided and you suddenly become a felon!

My Uncle lives in Oregon and he said it sounded like a war
At midnight last night from all the gun shots? ( New Years?) If that happened in California they would declare a state of emergency and call out the National Guard!

Murph

John,

I respect your opinion and appreciate your concerns, but I don't live in one of the restrictive states that consider antiques to be firearms. Also, interestingly enough, I completed a 4473 for the transfer of this gun and I have my PA "owners card" documenting the legal purchase of same with the serial number as marked on the butt of the gun..

If I choose to sell it, I will be sure to sell it in a free state and if I choose to keep it and shoot it, I will do so without fear of BATF knocking down my door.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

You might have noticed that you have received NO likes yet. If you think value has anything to do with current selling prices or asking prices, go out to Gunbroker and buy those guns that will not sell at asking prices and try to prove those prices are the same as value. You can pay way more this week for a gun that by this summer will almost certainly sell for less. If in a hurry, like way too many buyers out there now, then you are only temporarily right. You might better take what our learned collector members say with a little more than a grain of salt. They are in it for the long haul and have been doing this for longer than most of us.

I believe that prices paid within the last 18 months have nothing to do with long term value. A couple years ago, I bought at least a half dozen K frame target revolvers for about half of what they are selling for this year. Vintage guns are now selling for as much as 2X what they were 2 years ago and that will just not be sustainable over time. I am not buying now, but am confident that prices will return to near pre-pandemic levels or when all the hoarding is over. I have plenty of guns to enjoy without paying temporarily inflated prices hoarders and impulse buyers are currently shelling out. Only time will tell.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary,

I realize this response is not directed specifically to me. I do respect the opinion of seasoned collectors on this forum and that's why I ask for opinions from time to time. Mostly, I learn by reading, not asking because there is sufficient sharing of information so that many questions get answered before I would ask them.

With respect to this homely Model 3 I have, I have looked at these for several years now and have never seen a complete, functioning model 3 sell anywhere for under $1000 regardless of condition or modification. I also don't think that these antique guns have been effected by the upsurge in prices for more recent models. I know this one is of no interest to "collectors," but if someone wants to shoot a 145 year old revolver for the fun of it, there is no better way to do so.

Again, I respect your opinion and thank you for your input.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Market value is probably one of the hardest subjects to actually become proficient at accurately guessing ?

Just when you think you have a grasp on value? Someone pays ten times more for it. That’s honestly happened a lot lately. It’s not just antiques. It’s basically everything.

I honestly doubt that prices will ever return to the good old days.

I’ve seen dealers absolutely refuse to lower their prices for years at a time. The so called deals? Those will be very hard to find now only because it’s very easy to research value now. It’s only getting easier and you can sell to a world wide market.

Plus there are actually new collectors out there. I’m watching them pay these new prices on multiple websites. One of the hardest things to except as you get older is excepting price increases. Cause you remember the good old days when you could buy an antique for $125. Those days are gone!

Murph

Agreed, I also don’t believe that antique revolvers have been affected to the upside as much as more modern revolvers, and if we are ever in a post pandemic/unhoarding situation, these will not decline as much, if at all.

But the subject matter of this thread has many issues and is nowhere near worth a grand. It may be that none have been observed selling for less than a grand recently, but none have this extent of issues, including legality of possession, depending on jurisdiction.

I would let the market decide what it is worth. Send it to Rock Island Auction and they can determine if it is legal to sell and the market will determine ultimate selling price.

Call them first to discuss the sake of this one and if it legally can even be sent to them. If not, it’s a parts gun.

I used to work at RIACO. That's a legal antique. Prices of guns are high every where. I have been after shooter grade Winchester '86's and a particular '95 at RIACO since the plague started. Can't even get a sniff. They're going for 1K more than I'll pay. Doesn't matter how the bore is, they all go for ridiculous money. Just before the plague I bought 3 M36 S&W's at $400 each. They go for 1K+ now. I also bought quite a few M94 winchesters in '19 at very good prices. That is over now. I believe this is the new normal, which means you're going to pay more or quit buying for good. Inflation has a lot to do with this.
I'm looking for a S&W model 3 in just about any caliber as long as it's tight and has a good bore. I have been watching prices on these guns and I believe I'll have to pay 2K to bring it home.

Sounds like now is the time to start selling off the accumulation.

I guess that the mantra is "Start High, you can always come down but it's difficult to go up."

I just don't want to be one of those guys that people will say "Who does he think he is with prices like that!"

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

My point was that price is actually not value. Values depends on a long term look at many sales over years, not spot sales. I can find Model 3 S&Ws currently selling for under $1000, but that is not the point. Time will dictate changes in value, not the latest crazy price paid for a Model 3 at last week's auction.

I have often asked myself - Are we in the golden age of S&W collecting? My answer is no way. We are in a panic buying situation that can not and will not be sustainable over time. I keep a valuation log using published sources over the years and believe I found an age of value increases that will never be seen again. I picked several classic antique and early C&R S&W revolvers of similar condition to follow and the results were surprising. The examples of various Model 3 models show a slow steady value increase that is nowhere close to what has happened in the last couple years and I see no reason why that trend would continue. These antique revolvers will either quickly return to the lackluster few percent value increase or, perhaps value will even fall in the near term. Considering the age of collectors who seek these guns, I wonder if the antique gun market will suffer the same fate as antique furniture when the "minimalist" generations come of age?

The answer to the golden age of collecting S&W is below in the charts.

Attached Images

	Values of S&Ws.jpg (92.7 KB, 143 views)
	Annual Growth Rate S&W Models.jpg (73.9 KB, 144 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary, almost too analytical...
Your study is of collector grade guns, not the chopped, channeled and repainted one under discussion from the OP.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I think his graph is spot on for all grades.

I tend to classify guns as "Collectors", "Shooters" and "Hole Fillers".
Shooters are just that, something you shoot regularly. Many here will shoot their Collectors, although not often. It's really up to the individual.
Then we come to what I call "Hole Fillers". These are usually in deplorable condition but fill a spot in a collection until something better (and/or affordable) comes along. I've had a number of these over the years.

Best example would be a Revolving Rifle. At the time I was collecting chamberings of S&W revolvers, so a RR was required to fill the 320 RR hole. The one I ended up with was in disgusting condition.... Homemade (poorly) sideplate, Heavily buffed and reblued, homemade firing pin welded onto the hammer, wrong grips and the buttstock was held on by a machine screw drilled into the backstrap. BUT! IT FILLED A HOLE..... I actually fired it once, but wouldn't qualify it as a shooter.
(I finally gave up this collection goal after not being able to afford or even find about five of the rare chamberings found in the #3 New Model.)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

They all appreciate at the same rate as far as I can tell. Just much lower dollars. If that was not true, why did this chopped Model 3 recently sell for $900, with 30 bids, when I can remember when they sold for less than $300?

Attached Images

pix830009222.jpg (81.8 KB, 121 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I saw that listing....The seller claimed " Barrel length looks original"... I'm not saying that it is or it isn't without a factory letter? but the front sight pin is correct and the muzzle crown was "very old" and looked convincing to me. If you have the auction still show the photo of the muzzle crown for the forum.

I think the only way to prove it's been chopped is a letter since these did come with 6" barrels...That's what the seller claimed...I missed the end of that auction....or it would have gone higher...I'm not convinced its chopped. I would have bid on it.

Murph

I listed the gun for sale last nite with full disclosure. It sold this morning for the listed price of $1000 plus shipping costs.



Robert

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Almost all models of S&W have the address/patent roll stamp centered between the front of the cylinder and the rear of the front sight, so just over an inch of space from the rear of the sight to the stamp on an 8" American barrel. On Models with a short barrel, where the roll stamping was longer than would fit, it was moved to the side of the barrel. An 8" Model 3 cut to 6" would mean that the sight slot would have been cut into the stamping.

Attached Images

American Barrel Stamp.jpg (25.2 KB, 108 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Okay, there you have it. The market decided it’s worth $1000 plus shipping.

Strange times we are in!

Can you post a link to your completed listing?

Worth = Value ??? Value = Worth ???


It was Worth $1000 to somebody, but does that mean that another similar one will bring another $1000?

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I agree that the barrel address would be centered on a “ Special Order” 6” barrel. I have studied many special order barrel lengths and the common denominator is that there are exceptions to where they are stamped. Some are stamped on the side as mentioned. “However” some are also stamped on top with a unique shortened stamp that “is” centered! See photo of a 6” barrel with centered stamp. Special orders always bring up abnormalities.

Murph

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	A03462C6-5D43-410B-A677-C47645309997.jpg (16.3 KB, 15 views)
	E9A24D85-D47C-4F89-B162-771E91051625.jpeg (35.5 KB, 13 views)
	87BCB79B-6F2F-4A1E-8DB1-65ECAC1E8081.jpg (14.9 KB, 20 views)

Well, hopefully, the new owner will get a letter and answer this question.
(Although it may come back as "Open on the Books"....)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I would not have bought it for any price, but that was not the point of this discussion.
the barrel was cut for sure.