1st. Mod. DA .44 Russian - renickel?

[Exmilcop]

I'm looking at acquiring this pistol and my question to you more knowledgeable types is does this look like a re-nickeled revolver to you. Condition is so good that I'm a little suspect. If possible, could one of you kind gentlemen date the pistol?

[first-model]

Yup, it's a renickel. S&W revolvers came from the factory with case hardened hammers and triggers. The nickel plating there is a dead ringer. Someone also leaned into it on the buffing wheel ... the soft corners tell that story.

My serial number data for the .44 DA is all over the place. I'd say that it dates to somewhere between the early 1890's and the early 1900's.

Mike

[mrcvs]

Originally Posted by first-model

Yup, it's a renickel. S&W revolvers came from the factory with case hardened hammers and triggers. The nickel plating there is a dead ringer. Someone also leaned into it on the buffing wheel ... the soft corners tell that story.

My serial number data for the .44 DA is all over the place. I'd say that it dates to somewhere between the early 1890's and the early 1900's.

Mike

Stated well, I agree!

[BMur]

This is a scary one. The numbers are restamped. Look closely. Deep dish marks where each number is. The original numbers were ground off individually and re-stamped with non original dies. Would like to see a photo of the other numbers. Back of cylinder etc.
Look closely at the 4 and 1. Compare them to photo 2 of a correct factory stamp.

Murph

[first-model]

Originally Posted by BMur

This is a scary one. The numbers are restamped. Look closely. Deep dish marks where each number is. The original numbers were ground off individually and re-stamped with non original dies. Would like to see a photo of the other numbers. Back of cylinder etc.
Look closely at the 4 and 1. Compare them to photo 2 of a correct factory stamp.

I don't agree with this assessment. I think someone just leaned into the buffing wheel really hard with this gun. I agree that the numbers don't look right, but the font is entirely consistent with the other .44 DA's from this era that I've seen. Buffing wheels can do odd things around roll marks and such, which is why guns should never be mechanically buffed. Ever.

Mike

[iby]

I do not intend to be rude but this gun is very obviously refinished.
Study more and then buy

[opoefc]

Definately a refinished gun. If the ser. # is correct, 35142's frame was made Mar. 28. 1898. A factory letter can tell you when it was assembled & shipped. Ed.

[BMur]

Ed,
If that is the case the frame should have the Smith and Wesson Motif stamped on the right side. I don't see one. That began in 1897. Of course, it could have been buffed off with the refinish but usually there is some remanence remaining.

All we need to see is the serial number on the back of the cylinder. Or any other serial number. Latch, or barrel. I would suspect that they've been conveniently removed.


Murph

[glowe]

Be very careful about hard and fast date rules as to when changes were made! There are none. I have an original finish 44 DA that shipped in 1899 with no Smith & Wesson on the barrel.

[opoefc]

Murph, Some yrs ago, Roy Jinks reported to the BATF that all .44DA frames were made and stock piled before the 1898 cut off dates for antiques, which helped collectors acquiring these .44DAs. My records indicate when the gun was logged into the assembly records. Roy's shipping records may cite a date after the 1898 time, but the gun is still an antique per BATF. Like Gary says, never count anything as hard & fast with S&Ws. Ed

[sigp220.45]

Refinished, as noted.

Am I right that there is something about this particular model, due to its date of manufacture and it .44 Russian chambering, that lets it fit into a less-restrictive area of Canadian firearms law?

[glowe]

Isn't it because the Canadian government has determined that some calibers are considered as obsolete, including 44 Russian plus fit a certain age requirement? I know that the UK considers 44 American and 44 Russian as obsolete calibers, so citizens can own guns the use these and other calibers.

[Exmilcop]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

Refinished, as noted.

Am I right that there is something about this particular model, due to its date of manufactur and it .44 Russian chambering, that lets it fit into a less-restrictive area of Canadian firearms law?

You are absolutely correct. Under Canadian law, to qualify as "antique" status, a pistol must be made before 1898 AND be chambered in a caliber deemed obsolete. As a for instance, if the pistol in question was in .44-40 it would be subject to all the same conditions of ownership and transport as any modern handgun. Since the RCMP database contains 1st. mod. DA's with serial numbers into the 45000 range, for sure this one would qualify as antique. BTW, the serial number on the cylinder matches the butt. If I get it, I'll check the latch to see that the same is true.

[clang444]

Another dead giveaway on the refinish is the dishing around some of the screw holes. Some are quite off center so someone was real aqgressive with a buffing wheel and only worked the wheel in one direction.

[BMur]

Originally Posted by opoefc

Murph, Some yrs ago, Roy Jinks reported to the BATF that all .44DA frames were made and stock piled before the 1898 cut off dates for antiques, which helped collectors acquiring these .44DAs. My records indicate when the gun was logged into the assembly records. Roy's shipping records may cite a date after the 1898 time, but the gun is still an antique per BATF. Like Gary says, never count anything as hard & fast with S&Ws. Ed

Ed and Gary,
Thanks for your input and experience. I have found that markings on the "frame" and left side "barrel" "normally" occurred beginning in late 1897 with the circular Motif stamped on the right side "frame" and then in about 1902 with the caliber marking stamped on the left side barrel. Nothing is absolute regarding antiques.


I understand that thoroughly. I'm only following what is "normally" found. If the stamp is not there it's not Normal. Which in my mind is suspect. Not absolute. I just check the "suspect" column until more proof is found to legitimize those numbers. The OP has not yet provided any photo's of the cylinder serial number or any other photo's. I still maintain the position that those numbers are re-stamped after being "grinded" off. NOT buffed off. The photo show's cavities at each number or "appears" to show cavities. If those are in fact cavities? That is also suspect. To me it's obvious.

Also, the problem with a re-nickel is often it conceals welding work. It's also possible that the base of the frame was welded for some reason. That would show up if the OP provided a photo of the grip frame with the grips off the gun. Evaluating antiques that have been worked on and refinished heavily based Soley on a couple of general photo's is pure guess work.

Murph

[iby]

Originally Posted by BMur

Ed,
If that is the case the frame should have the Smith and Wesson Motif stamped on the right side. I don't see one. That began in 1897. Of course, it could have been buffed off with the refinish but usually there is some remanence remaining.

All we need to see is the serial number on the back of the cylinder. Or any other serial number. Latch, or barrel. I would suspect that they've been conveniently removed.


Murph

Murph.
I think I see the remains of the logo on the frame.
Take a look
I think a former thread established (?) 1896 as the first appearance of the logo.

[delcrossv]

Also, aren't the trigger guard and latch knobs blued on these?

[BMur]

Originally Posted by iby

Murph.
I think I see the remains of the logo on the frame.
Take a look
I think a former thread established (?) 1896 as the first appearance of the logo.

Thanks iby,
It’s hard to see but I think you’re right. I guess the numbers do match. The numbers on the back of the cylinder are legit. I still suspect the numbers on the frame are re-stamped after being removed from the buttered on chrome refinish.
Notice the divot that surrounds various screws and pooling of the refinish?

Murph

[first-model]

Originally Posted by BMur

Notice the divot that surrounds various screws and pooling of the refinish?

Those divots and pooling don't have anything to do with the nickel plating. The nickel is electroplated and takes on the texture of the surface underneath it. The nickel finish itself is only a thousandth or two of an inch thick.

When I was a teenager, I used to scavenge brass-era cars in junkyards and resell the parts (back when there were brass-era cars to be found in junkyards). I learned quickly that a buffing wheel has to be used very judiciously on these parts—otherwise, the mechanical buffing action will cause exactly what you see on this gun. The divots and pools are where someone really leaned in against the buffing wheel.

I worked in the jewelry industry for a few years, and we'd see the same thing there with expensive jewelry being buffed to death—and precious details (especially edges and corners) being obliterated in the process.

Mike

[rct269]

I realize our sense of values differ from Canadian sense of values due to legalities, but Exmilcop's comment ("If I get it,") borders on terrifying!! This piece has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It can be improved only by melting it down!!

Ralph Tremaine

[iby]

Originally Posted by rct269

I realize our sense of values differ from Canadian sense of values due to legalities, but Exmilcop's comment ("If I get it,") borders on terrifying!! This piece has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It can be improved only by melting it down!!

Ralph Tremaine

While I personally agree with you,
Collectors of antique guns are a quirky bunch and I don't believe many guns are thrown away

[Exmilcop]

Once again I owe you gentlemen a big "thank you". The whole thread is moot since the vendor won't ship to Canada anyway. I'm trying to trade, straight swap, a high condition Frontier for the same pistol but in .44 Russian. So far, no takers.

[deadin]

Ralph, Your curmudgeon is showing......

[rct269]

Originally Posted by Exmilcop

Once again I owe you gentlemen a big "thank you". The whole thread is moot since the vendor won't ship to Canada anyway. I'm trying to trade, straight swap, a high condition Frontier for the same pistol but in .44 Russian. So far, no takers.

My most favorite possessions are options----I thrive on them-------I work my butt off to create them. That's me.

If you were me, you'd sell your Frontier-------put the cash in your pocket---and go shopping----------for a .44 D.A.First-----or a NM #3 (which would be my first choice-----but you being a shooter have priorities I don't know anything about).

On the other side of the coin, you're looking for one individual with a nice .44 D.A. First who wants a Frontier. Some folks might think of that as a needle in a haystack.

Ralph Tremaine