Hello, Just picked up a top break off of GunBroke. It was advertised as reblued, matching serial numbers (except grips) and in excellent operating condition. All true except operating condition?

I can sometimes rotate the cylinder counter clockwise. It does not seem to be locking up correctly. I can pull the hammer back and it locks up solid, release the hammer (with my thumb) open and close it and then the cylinder will rotate again sometimes? I have not been able pin it down to single cylinder that could the problem.

The cylinder cut outs and cylinder stop all seem to have sharp edges to my untrained eye?

I really like it, but I wanted an example I could shoot. The Serial number is 420XXX. I believe it's a 4th Model?

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I like the grips

"Welcome Aboard" !!!!!


Yeah, it's a later gun. Post 1902 since it has the caliber stamped on the left side of the barrel. Definitely a shooter. Nice looking gun for sure.

Try to gently push down on the bolt with your index finger. It should be hard to push down. If it's not then the part is weak or in some way flawed. (bent) They are not easy to find and they are not easy to repair. Just giving it to you straight. Normally I heat them up and recurve that area that contacts the trigger. It works on the same principle as the Single action Army type bolt. It rubs against another part and snaps back into position under it's own spring tension.

I'll post a photo when I get a chance....It's a long part that is under load all the time so after time they weaken and sometimes snap off at the tip inside the gun.


Murph

Here ya go.
Diagram shows part number 8. That’s the bolt or cylinder stop. Most of the time if the bolt doesn’t move when the action is worked it is damaged, bent, cracked, at that area with the yellow arrow. Lack of spring tension might be only a small spring issue but either way that part must be removed and closely examined with a jewelers 20x to 60x Loop for cracks or bent?

Very common problem with these top breaks. If I had to pinpoint the weakest part of the action on these? This bolt Design would be my vote.

Also, could you post a good close up of the cylinder ratchet? Let us look at those teeth up close.

Murph

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Looks great !

Hello Murph,

Thanks for the reply.

I can push down on the bolt and feel tension and it returns. It feels spongy? I can also rotate it out of time and then cock the hammer and it locks up correctly on every cylinder. I don't have any snap caps or spent brass to try a double action pull.

Here's a picture of the ratchet.

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Well, The Ratchet looks Great!

You can see from the photo's you posted that distinct drag line on the cylinder. Also the shine on the edge of the lock up slot. So spring tension or clearance is also an issue on the bolt.

I've taken these apart so many times and the one common denominator is gobbs of scum in there. Dirt, built up hard grease, etc. That can often cause the action to bind by taking up needed clearance and room for the action to function freely.

Dropping oil in there might help but taking it apart and cleaning the parts, tuning the action and repairing/replacing bad or worn parts is the solution.

Murph

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I've got spent cases if you want some, be happy to mail you a set. The edges on the cylinder cutouts should be sharp, that's how the stop prevents the cylinder from rotating freely, also if the frame latch is not tight, it can allow the cylinder and forward frame to lift slightly compounding any weakness in the stop.


Good looking revolver!

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When words fail, music speaks.

My thought on this is, 'DON'T!'--at least, not yet. There are things in there that you do NOT want to disturb unless you specifically need to do so--the rear sear, the trigger spring, the bolt/trigger interface, the hand--that will give you fits trying to get back into harmony with each other, and you may regret going in that far.
With one of these watchmaker's nightmares, your best bet is to reduce the mainspring tension by turning out the tensioning screw, remove the grips, and at most jar off the side-plate to allow access to the majority if the internal frame. Do NOT remove the trigger guard on this first attempt. Apply copious amounts of spray degreaser until it runs clean out every orifice, let it drip or blow it dry, then apply a SMALL amount of lubricant to the hammer pivot pin and the other parts that move, button it back up, and see how you've done. If you're averse to removing the side-plate, just remove the grips, hose it down as above, and you may be surprised at how well the gun works.
If this fails, THEN put on your safety goggles, put the gun in a clear plastic bag, and have at it.

Murph — Thanks for all the advice. If I decide to tackle the the disassembly, I'll need to get a set of cup tip punches. Got a Lyman set, but I don't want to damage the pins.

Mbrgr1 — Thanks for the case offer, sent you a PM.

John in AK — Good advice. I've taken an old Model 10 apart and put it back together, but this seems a little more complex and we don't have a ready supply of spare parts if something goes wrong. I'll try this first. Should I be prepared for something to come out when I tap off that cover plate?

No. On the other hand, if something DOES pop out, it's something broken. Just remember to reduce the mainspring tension first.

myrnpistol,

More than happy to help you out with the repair. It's a rarity to converse with someone who actually takes them apart.
If you've worked on the old swing-out Model 10 than you understand the safe procedure to "always" remove the grips first, side plate, and main spring. Always put parts in a safe place away from your working area in a secure container and for the top breaks I always remove the barrel assembly so that I have only one piece in my hand and that's the frame. All other parts are put in a secure container away from the work area.

The frame pins on these antiques are often damaged and "bent" inside the gun to begin with so you can't do much damage with a flat head type punch. See photo. IN fact, a bent pin can be the source of the mal function in this case. I don't worry about the tips of the pins until re-installation. It's very easy to re-constitute a dome with emery cloth. In your case the gun has been re-blued, so no harm done. I can show you how to re-constitute a dome on these. It's simple and fun.

These photo'd tools are my primary small tools to work on the old top-breaks. I took some cheap drivers on the right of the photo and used a Dremel to cut the tips and introduce a small cup to the tip. The expensive tools on the left.

They work perfectly. However, the pins are often stuck from being on the frame for 130 plus years so you have to work them out with a small brass ball peen hammer until they move easily. Oil and tap, Oil and tap, until they move. Then carefully tap them with the punch. Never start with a punch! The punch will slip off the stuck pin and you'll put a dent/scratch into the frame.
The flat brass peen hammer will not damage the frame surface, nor will it damage the pin.

I started out with a Colt Thunderer many moons ago. My first antique. I don't think I've ever worked on a harder action than that specific model. The only folks who talk trash are those who don't actually work on antiques. It's not that difficult and it's fun to get them working.

This is an factual statement.
"The only reason they can be difficult to repair is due to NO new factory original replacement parts being available on the market".


Murph

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Well I opened it up to see inside. It was really clean and dry. Went ahead and hit it with some breakfree and lightly oiled the moving parts. No joy on the lockup. I did find a bolt on Ebay, at least I'll have a reference part.

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myrnpistol, what happens when you pull and hold the hammer back, past full cock? Does the cylinder lock every time? From my vantage point, I believe the hammer notch has been messed with. My guess is that by holding the hammer back that the cylinder will lock in battery. To be clear: I think you need a replacement hammer or need the existing hammer welded and re-cut. Also try holding the hammer back and simultaneously pulling the trigger back and see if the cylinder locks.

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Mike Maher #283

Mike, I can pull the hammer back to full cock and the cylinder locks up properly every time. It will not move past full cock. I can also take the cylinder out of time and it will lock up on full cock every time.

Myron

To be sure I understand: Hammer down (fired position) the cylinder will sometimes rotate (not locked in battery). At the first notch (aka half cock) the cylinder spins freely. At the second notch (aka full cock) the cylinder locks up every time. Do I have this correct?

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Mike Maher #283

Hammer down (fired position) the cylinder will sometimes rotate (not locked in battery). Yes, but only counter clockwise.

At the first notch (aka half cock) the cylinder spins freely. It's double action, no half cock?

At the second notch (aka full cock) the cylinder locks up every time. Yes at full cock.

Sorry to interrupt your thread, and I sincerely hope that you find a solution. I just wanted to say that this is exactly the type of information that makes this forum so interesting. I am positive that all of the suggestions from experienced collectors is invaluable to many who come here. Great job folks!

Myron,
No Joy? I haven't heard that in a long time. You're coming in Lima Charlie on my end.

That close up photo shows that the pins have been taken off the frame many times. You can clearly see the marks surrounding the boss on each pin so this gun has been worked on several times. Those ding's are caused by punches jumping off the pin when struck. Miss-alignment? That's why you start with a brass ball peen hammer to gently tap the pin flush to the frame and avoid those dings.

So, if you work the action via double action with only the trigger? letting the hammer set down softly with the thumb of the weak hand on every chamber...All five? Does the cylinder rotate, stop, lock on each chamber with the chamber lined up with the bore? Same process with Single action? With the weak hand thumb pull back on the hammer to full lock up? Does the cylinder rotate, lock, and line up with the barrel on "every" chamber?

*These antiques should never be dry fired. You should set the hammer down every time. Unless you intend to shoot the gun at a safe target.

You also mention that the cylinder "locks up" with the hammer "all the way back" at battery...That term means that "everything is functioning normally" the cylinder rotates, locks, and is clearly lined up with the barrel bore? That is battery. Ready to safely fire mechanically speaking. If it's not lined up? It's not at battery.

Murph

Myron,
Also, if your cylinder is rotating in the opposite direction? I think I understand your meaning. If while drawing the hammer back slowly the cylinder actually starts to rotate in the opposite direction?

That is caused by wear on the base pin. Gunsmiths often install a small spring on the base pin to repair that condition. I'll attach a photo when I get a chance.

The spring applies pressure against the cylinder boss and resists movement until the hand or pawl forces it to rotate in the correct direction.

Notice the photo of a base pin without a spring and then one with a spring? Many, many antiques are out there with worn base pins that have springs installed. That's why. To correct that counterclockwise rotation.

The correct repair is to replace the base pin but on these top breaks it's a difficult chore. Often they are frozen and difficult to remove. Smith & Wesson's are fine threaded into the barrel. Do not try to remove it. You will break it for sure. It requires a special tool that inserts into the pin and expands. More often than not that doesn't work either.

Photo's attached.
one with a base pin spring
one without a base pin spring
and one missing the spring.

Murph

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The S&W, Top Break, DA revolvers ALL had half cock notches. With the hammer fully down the half cock is only 1/16" back and can be missed easily.
"Hammer down (fired position) the cylinder will sometimes rotate (not locked in battery). Yes, but only counter clockwise." This is because the locking bolt does not fully engage the cylinder notches and the 'lead in' ramp to the cylinder notch will push the bolt down and allow the cylinder to turn counterclockwise. The bolt sticks up enough to catch the notch when turner clockwise (I.e., there is no ramp on that side). Either the cylinder stop has been bent or the hammer notch has been "worked on".
A photo of the innards with the rear sear in the half cock position may help.
Also, S&W never had the spring shown in the photos above.

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Mike Maher #283

Thanks for the support. Long time lurker on here and I knew this was the place to come to with a problem. I'm also in Missouri, we have a big football game today!

Murph and Mike, thanks for all the advice.

Murph, never been in the military but "no joy" is just a phase I use a lot when it's true.

Mike, I did find the half cock. I can still rotate the cylinder CC wise at half cock. Attaching the requested picture with the hammer at half cock. I can see that it pulls the hammer pin back into the frame. Was this so you could carry a round under the hammer at the time? Hammer blocks make that safe today.

My only experience with Smith revolvers has been K, L, and N frames. Got some old and new ones of those. This is my first top break. I'd like to add an I frame to the collection some day.

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OK, that helps narrow down the possibilities. That photo is worth.... etc. Anyway, your hammer appears OK as does the rear sear. The last group of suspects are the cylinder stop and/or the spring and plunger that is located in the trigger. I'm beginning to think the plunger bore is dirty and not allowing the cylinder stop to raise into battery. Since this revolver has been reblued; it is possible one or both these tiny parts were lost when disassembled. The fact that it locks in battery when in full cock but not with the hammer down has me baffled. I would remove the trigger and cylinder stop for inspection; clean, reinstall and lightly oil. It might be worth it to flood that area with an aerosol cleaner one more time before disassembling to see if more crud flushes out of that area. Use ones with the little straw to get as much cleaner as possible into there. Work the action several times and flood it again, liberally.

Yes! The half cock (aka. safety notch) allowed one to carry a full cylinder. It's not recommended.
Also, I hope the ePay bolt was for a 3rd - 5th type as they are different from the 1st and 2nd type.

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Mike Maher #283

Wanted to thank everyone for all the advice and give you an update. I took her all apart and everything looked great in there.

Observed that there is a recess for the cylinder stop cut into the frame and the cylinder stop was not flat against the recess. I did a little bending of the stop until it was flat against the recess. Putting it back together, I had a little challenge getting the trigger spring to stay on the trigger ledge, no trigger return till I got that right. I'm happy to report it locks up correctly now. Tighter than a Model 10 I bought for a learning project.

The cylinder stop I bought online had side wear and a flat spot on top. At least it gave me a reference to what I had in the revolver.

Thanks again!