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01-16-2022, 11:06 PM
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.44 Russian target model?
I have a line on a S&W 1st. mod. DA in .44 Russian. It may be a reblue and I'll post pics as soon as I hear from the seller. It has the same blade foresight as I've seen on the target models as opposed to the usual half moon foresight. My question is how much value does it add if it is indeed a target model? I'd have to scrimp and perhaps go into temporary hock to buy it, but it may be worth it. Any input would be most appreciated.
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01-16-2022, 11:23 PM
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Is the rear sight a target sight ? ( and if the front sight a target sight, it might be a factory target gun. ) Any serial numbers stamped on the sights ? If the evidence points to a target gun, the uptick in value would only occur if the gun letters as shipped as a target from S&W, and what that might be depends on negotiations between the parties, plus too many factors can influence the deal, such as condition and the economic position of either party. Ed. ( PS: See PM )
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01-17-2022, 07:16 AM
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I'm expecting more pics from the seller. I had hoped to capture some images off his ad, but it seems to have disappeared. Here are a few of the pics he sent me. To my admittedly novice eye, it looks like the normal fixed rear sight but you folks would know better.
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01-17-2022, 08:28 AM
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Your admittedly novice eye is smack dab on the money--it is not a target model. That said, an idea just popped into my head. A PM is in the making, and will be along directly.
Ralph Tremaine
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01-17-2022, 09:35 AM
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The problem with top-break targets is that the parts are easily changed to look like a target revolver. If one has access to a target sighted top latch, it can be switched from one gun to another because it is only held in place with one screw. The front sight is even easier to change, just pop the pin and install any sight blade you want.
Another target option seen is to simply place a narrow slot in the top latch and insert a flat blade. Looks and functions like a target sight, but is not adjustable.
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01-17-2022, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269
Your admittedly novice eye is smack dab on the money--it is not a target model. That said, an idea just popped into my head. A PM is in the making, and will be along directly.
Ralph Tremaine
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PM sent in response. Does anyone care to venture a guess as to why a target foresight is on a standard DA?
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01-17-2022, 11:35 AM
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Because a customer wanted something better to aim the gun with than the usual "thumbnail" blade but not the cost of a target rear sight.
I have seen "half target" Hand Ejectors with target front, fixed rear sights.
Just look at all the police trade in Model 10s getting expensive makeovers with FO, Tritium, or gold front sights but still the factory hog wallow rear.
Nothing mysterious about it. The only question is, will it letter as factory?
Last edited by Jim Watson; 01-17-2022 at 11:38 AM.
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01-17-2022, 03:44 PM
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I have a standard NM3 with a Partridge front sight
The letter does not mention the sight but I like it
Correction: Paine front sight
Last edited by iby; 01-26-2022 at 09:51 PM.
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01-17-2022, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iby
I have a standard NM3 with a Partridge front sight
The letter does not mention the sight but I like it
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The photo does not lend itself to proper identification, but the profile of the sight suggests it's a Paine Black Bead, the standard target front from 1878 to 1905---or possibly the Thin Round Top Blade (essentially the same profile, but no bead), standard from 1905 to 1923. The Plain Patridge (named for its developer rather than the bird) was available on order from about 1900 on, and became standard on hand ejectors from 1923 to the early 1940's.
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01-17-2022, 07:10 PM
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This is one of those not originally a target model. I had it lettered and there is no mention of the front or rear sight being target.
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01-17-2022, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinman
This is one of those not originally a target model. I had it lettered and there is no mention of the front or rear sight being target.
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The front sight here is the Paine Black Bead--------one of about a half dozen sight blades attributed to Ira Paine-----he who developed the 38-44 S&W cartridge------the zero throat wonder round that won just about every match of his time----put the New Model #3 Target revolver on the map, and sent everybody home wondering "Who was that masked man----and how'd he learn to shoot like that?!!"
Ralph Tremaine
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01-26-2022, 01:38 PM
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WELL! I bought the pistol and it arrived today. I couldn't be happier. I'd rate the bore a conservative 8/10 and the chambers are the same or better. Mechanically, it's perfect and the serial numbers on the cylinder, grip, and latch are all matching. Timing, lock-up, half cock, and indexing are excellent with no cylinder slop. For sure it doesn't have the proper target rear sight and I don't know if the foresight was a factory order or a later add-on. Given it's such an early serial number (#7661), the condition is superb. The barrel could use a re-blue but the case hardening on the trigger and hammer is still very very good. I may wait for warmer weather before I touch up the barrel finish. Now it's a matter of getting it to the range to see how it shoots. A kind gentleman from this site has offered me the adjustable rear sight assembly should I wish to purchase it. Overall, this is an excellent pistol.
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01-26-2022, 03:18 PM
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.44DA, ser. # 7661, was manufactured Dec 20, 1882, if it's a .44 Russian. If it's a 44-40, make date is Aug. 24, 1889. Blue revolver . Ed
Last edited by opoefc; 01-27-2022 at 01:04 AM.
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01-26-2022, 03:21 PM
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The front sight is the Paine Black Bead----standard target fare on break-opens from 1878 to 1905-----and available on order all the way to 1942.
Maybe your new gun was born a full target, and became a so-called "half target" along the way for some reason; or maybe it's always been that way. If the latch is numbered to the gun, odds are it's always been that way. Similarly, if the front sight is numbered to the gun, it's likely been there right along too. A letter will likely tell the tale.
Ralph Tremaine
Last edited by rct269; 01-26-2022 at 03:30 PM.
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01-26-2022, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc
.44DA, ser. # 7661, was manufactured Dec 20, 1882. Blue revolver . Ed
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Thank you. As ever, I thought that posting the serial number would garner a response from you and your wealth of knowledge. This is the fourth and (hopefully) the last 1st.Mod.DA that I'll be purchasing. It's everything I wanted; the long barrel, the better foresight, and excellent condition, in this model of pistol. Fingers crossed for accuracy. I took the liberty of posting a pic of the bore and chambers. You gentlemen will note the condition. Of interest, there seems to be a shadow ring just shy of the point where the chambers narrow. Any thoughts? To forestall the obvious question, the cylinder measures 1.566. Could this be in .44-40 and not .44 Russian? Is there any problem in firing .44 Russian out of a .44-40?
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01-26-2022, 07:40 PM
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.44 Russian bullet diameter is .429"---.44-40's is .427". If .002" larger is a problem, then it's a problem. That said, seems like removing .002" with the sizing die would be a piece of cake. (This from one who hasn't run a bullet through a sizing die in the better part of 50+ years).
Case problems, on the other hand-------------------------?????????????????
Ralph Tremaine
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01-26-2022, 08:43 PM
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44 Russian?
Looks like a 44 Winchester caliber Frontier model Double Action to me.
The difference between a 44 Russian and a 44 WCF is HUGE.
The case width alone at the head is comparing a 45 cal to a 44 cal. See photos of case specs.
It’s not safe to attempt to discharge a 44 Russian cartridge in the chamber of a 44 WCF. Grossly undersized case with oversized bullet up to .432 depending. That’s as mush as 5 thousandth’s over sized!!
Plus, Target sights on a 44 Frontier does in no way compliment the caliber. The 44 WCF is “not a target caliber”on a pistol platform. I wouldn’t even call it target worthy on a rifle platform.
It’s a general purpose caliber at best. In fact I am not aware of any target pistols in that caliber during the “ Antique” black powder ERA. The reason is obvious.
If you’re in Canada with a 44/40? Opps!!!
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 01-26-2022 at 09:00 PM.
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01-26-2022, 10:26 PM
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The seller sold it to me in good faith believing it to be a .44 Russian. I even have the RCMP letter verifying that it's antique status. From what I've read, the .44-40 pistols like mine are scarcer. Any idea of current market value in the US?
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01-26-2022, 10:38 PM
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Market value
Photos honestly have to be very high quality like those you find at auction house auctions in order to give a decent appraisal.
The Frontiers in nice condition with original finish and a long barrel should bring over $1800.
However, the market is very rocky right now so tomorrow? Who knows?
Murph
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01-28-2022, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exmilcop
Thank you. As ever, I thought that posting the serial number would garner a response from you and your wealth of knowledge. This is the fourth and (hopefully) the last 1st.Mod.DA that I'll be purchasing. It's everything I wanted; the long barrel, the better foresight, and excellent condition, in this model of pistol. Fingers crossed for accuracy. I took the liberty of posting a pic of the bore and chambers. You gentlemen will note the condition. Of interest, there seems to be a shadow ring just shy of the point where the chambers narrow. Any thoughts? To forestall the obvious question, the cylinder measures 1.566. Could this be in .44-40 and not .44 Russian? Is there any problem in firing .44 Russian out of a .44-40?
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Post us a well lit image looking down in the Cylinder Chambers.
We'll be able to tell instantly if this is .44 Russian or .44-40.
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01-28-2022, 12:59 PM
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No need for an image, just measure the length of the cylinder. With a 4 digit serial number, if 1 7/16" it has to be a 44 Russian and if 1 9/16" it has to be a 44 Frontier. The long cylinder was not available prior to the introduction of the 44 Winchester Frontier DA in 1886. The 44 Russian DA had the short cylinder until around 15,000 serial number.
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01-28-2022, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe
No need for an image, just measure the length of the cylinder. With a 4 digit serial number, if 1 7/16" it has to be a 44 Russian and if 1 9/16" it has to be a 44 Frontier. The long cylinder was not available prior to the introduction of the 44 Winchester Frontier DA in 1886. The 44 Russian DA had the short cylinder until around 15,000 serial number.
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Not necessarily, some long Cylinder ones were chambered in .44 Russian...I myself have one which is...kind of wacky, huh!
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01-28-2022, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyeboteb
Not necessarily, some long Cylinder ones were chambered in .44 Russian...I myself have one which is...kind of wacky, huh!
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Not until serial number 15,000. As I noted, there were no long cylinders before the introduction of the 44 DA Frontier in 1885 and in that year, the 44 Russian was at 15,000 serial number.
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01-28-2022, 02:11 PM
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Cylinder length?
I don’t know. Sometimes you have to check to be certain but to me it’s obvious that the OP’s gun is a frontier model DA in 44 WCF. Not just by serial number but by the photo of the cylinder. I think by now we should be able to see the difference without a measuring tape.
See photo one. OP’s gun
See photo two. 44 Russian cylinder.
I think the difference is beyond obvious.
Look at it this way. Imagine looking at the frame without the cylinder present. The 44 Russian frame depicts a very clear square in the void. Where as the Frontier Model without the cylinder depicts a very clear rectangle. That’s how I see the difference.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 01-28-2022 at 02:16 PM.
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01-28-2022, 02:45 PM
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OK, you guys have this old fart thoroughly confused. Without a doubt, the .44-40 has a 4 digit serial number which Ed states came off the line on 20 Dec. 1882. Did S&W start a new serial number sequence when they commenced production of the Frontier models? You will note from the pics the undeniable difference in the cylinder lengths between the my Russian and Frontier models. You'll also note the Frontier chambers the .44-40 rnd. whereas the Russian does not.
Last edited by Exmilcop; 01-28-2022 at 03:14 PM.
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01-28-2022, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc
.44DA, ser. # 7661, was manufactured Dec 20, 1882, if it's a .44 Russian. If it's a 44-40, make date is Aug. 24, 1889. Blue revolver . Ed
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Ed looked up a 44 Russian and 44-40 DA. 44 Frontier did start with "1" in 1885.
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Last edited by glowe; 01-28-2022 at 04:17 PM.
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01-28-2022, 05:27 PM
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The .44DA Russians were a separate serial number range than the .44DA 44-40 revolvers. The 44-40 DA guns had a longer cylinder to allow the 44-40 to chamber, as it is a longer cartridge than the .44Russian. Most of the guns made as 44-40, in their separate serial number range, were chambered in caliber 44-40, but a few were made in .44Russian and had the longer cylinders. Ed
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01-28-2022, 06:01 PM
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So, in brief, if I'm understanding this correctly, the revolver in question, being a .44-40 DA Frontier model had a different serial number sequence from the .44 Russian DA which had come out prior to the development and adoption of the bigger frames to accommodate the bigger cartridge. If that's the case, then the date that Ed gave me would be incorrect, right?
Last edited by Exmilcop; 01-28-2022 at 06:02 PM.
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01-28-2022, 06:28 PM
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Error?
Actually, the error’s source or root cause is this threads listing. “Target 44 Russian”. If it was listed as a Frontier DA? The error in DOM would not have occurred. I’d estimate DOM at about 1886.
Also,
If we want to be historically accurate we must include other Gun Manufactures in this subject. The reason Smith & Wesson introduced the Frontier DA on this 44 Russian DA frame was to compete with the idea of using 1 singular cartridge in both your rifle and your side arm on the American Frontier. It had absolutely nothing to do with accuracy that’s for sure! The 44 WCF is a Rifle cartridge. Not originally designed for a pistol.
You will find that Colt, Hopkins & Allen ,Merwin & Hulbert, etc also introduced the Frontier caliber on a pistol frame at Basically the same time in history to meet market interest. 1 round for both a pistol and rifle.
The idea made sense on the Frontier where cartridge availability was very often limited.
That is the source of the individual serial number range. It was an afterthought, a modification, and in my opinion should be recognized as both historically significant and the reason for starting a new serial number range.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 01-28-2022 at 06:43 PM.
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01-28-2022, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exmilcop
So, in brief, if I'm understanding this correctly, the revolver in question, being a .44-40 DA Frontier model had a different serial number sequence from the .44 Russian DA which had come out prior to the development and adoption of the bigger frames to accommodate the bigger cartridge. If that's the case, then the date that Ed gave me would be incorrect, right?
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No, your 44 DA Frontier revolver was made on Aug. 24, 1889, just as Ed stated for the 44-40. A 44 DA Russian with that same serial number as your revolver would have shipped in 1882 with a short cylinder.
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01-28-2022, 06:59 PM
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Edit
My apologies,
I did not see Ed’s edit.
Murph
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01-28-2022, 07:11 PM
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[QUOTE=BMur;141374914]Actually, the error’s source or root cause is this threads listing. “Target 44 Russian”. If it was listed as a Frontier DA? The error in DOM would not have occurred. I’d estimate DOM at about 1886.
I understand about the confusion, but you'll note the question mark in the header of the start of the thread. It was a question as the pistol seemed unusual with that foresight.
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01-28-2022, 08:17 PM
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A mistake
So it’s like this. Should I have been able to determine the caliber of this antique when I have it in hand? Should I have been able to tell that it was not a 44 Russian?
If the answer is yes? Then you made a mistake. It’s OK. We all make mistakes. Perhaps the seller also made a mistake in the listing?
You can imagine how many mistakes were made during the time this antique was manufactured? Why? NO caliber marking whatsoever breeds mistakes. Even today. 133 years later!
Murph
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02-01-2022, 09:16 PM
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As ever, thank you all! Without your input and your generosity in sharing your collective wisdom and knowledge, guys like me would be at a loss in identifying these old S&W's. As a final recap, according to you gentlemen, what I have is a S&W Frontier model in .44-40 which came off the line as a blued revolver Aug.24, 1889. My last question is if the first model DA's were in .44 Russian, did S&W call this a second model DA, or just differentiate by calling the Frontier model?
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02-01-2022, 11:55 PM
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Smith and Wesson "Catalog" reference
Well,
I'm sure you will get a lot of opinions regarding the correct titles for these antique guns. I like to refer to "period" reference. By that I mean "specifically" Factory Catalog Reference only. This for an accurate factory description of their products.
Make no mistake that often collectors use period "Major Distributor" catalog reference as an accurate reference? I'm guilty of using those sources myself. I like the catch phrases that they used to label antique guns....Like "Peacemaker" ,"Lightning", "Thunderer",etc . I have no doubt that they in fact were the originator of the title: lemon squeezer .
However, technically those are period sales references not factory references.
The photo's attached are from an authentic "Smith & Wesson" Company catalog that clearly lists from factory reference existing guns available on the Market circa 1887.
This is most definitely a Period Factory Reference. Using these titles in my opinion would be 100% accurate for the large frame double actions of that Era.
You will also note that Smtih & Wesson dedicated two separate pages in this catalog. One for each model. So, they are not the same model having two different calibers.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 02-02-2022 at 01:07 AM.
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02-08-2022, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exmilcop
As ever, thank you all! Without your input and your generosity in sharing your collective wisdom and knowledge, guys like me would be at a loss in identifying these old S&W's. As a final recap, according to you gentlemen, what I have is a S&W Frontier model in .44-40 which came off the line as a blued revolver Aug.24, 1889. My last question is if the first model DA's were in .44 Russian, did S&W call this a second model DA, or just differentiate by calling the Frontier model?
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You hit the nail on the head! If it ain’t chambered for 44 WCF or 38 WCF, it ain’t a Double Action Frontier. There were a total of 15,340 Frontier models manufactured with fewer than 300 of them chambered in 38 WCF. That’s the one I need next!
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02-08-2022, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontier44
You hit the nail on the head! If it ain’t chambered for 44 WCF or 38 WCF, it ain’t a Double Action Frontier. There were a total of 15,340 Frontier models manufactured with fewer than 300 of them chambered in 38 WCF. That’s the one I need next!
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Saying "need" instead of "want" in this situation is the sign of a serious misuse of the English language. This was explained to me by my wife in similar circumstances.
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02-19-2022, 06:45 PM
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I think the fact that S&W put the label of "Frontier" on the later iteration of D.A. revolver speaks volumes as regards its use as a companion piece for the 44-40 rifle or carbine. Couldn't agree more and also appreciate the quick lesson on how to determine whether or not it is chambered for 44-40 the visual difference is obvious, early dated models taken into consideration. This lesson I found as interesting as the one about taking a .451 bullet with you to when looking at a Model of 1917, if it drops into the front chamber, pass...
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07-20-2022, 06:18 AM
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Member
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Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 367
Likes: 456
Liked 882 Times in 185 Posts
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Sometimes I'm an idiot! I'd totally forgotten that I had a lone .44-40 round kicking around so I tried it in the pistol. It slipped into the chamber slick as could be so for sure it's a Frontier model. That takes it from "antique" status up here in Canada and puts it into the "restricted" category so I've started the paperwork with the RCMP to get it registered.
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07-20-2022, 12:03 PM
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SWCA Member
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Out West
Posts: 522
Likes: 1,229
Liked 955 Times in 280 Posts
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Target Sights
I purchased this late model 44 Russian a few years ago. The front sight was messed and looked poorly on this old girl so I changed out the front sight. Though to myself, why stop there since I had a rear target sight laying around. Unfortunately the rear sight blade was missing on the rear sight. I've looked high and low for an original blade with no luck. Then it hit me, Uberti made a Frontier model that closely duplicated this gun so I looked for a parts list and bingo, Taylors and Company still carried the rear sight blades for their new gun. I bought one, and a few more, and with a little modification it fits. I still have the original rear latch and will keep it with this gun.
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Mark
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