Tip Up, engraved cylinder, more photos

digi-shots · #1 06-10-2022, 04:44 PM

Was at a friend’s house today and he asked about the engraving on one of his Smith’s.

It’s not your typical “western” theme. It looks like a knight in armor on horseback.

Has anyone seen anything similar?

Thanks for your comments!

BMur · #2 06-11-2022, 11:12 AM

Morning Linda,
Do the assembly numbers match? Face of cylinder and back of barrel. Also a number under the grips stamped on the frame.

It might be a replacement cylinder. It's odd that just the cylinder is engraved but not impossible. I really like that engraved knight.

Murph

digi-shots · #3 06-11-2022, 03:43 PM

Here are some more photos..
- face of cylinder - 224
- back of barrel - 224
- left side grip frame - S10

digi-shots · #4 06-11-2022, 03:49 PM

Also a few close ups of cylinder. It diesn’t look like regular engraving but more like “relief carving”. The scene is raised and the rest of the cylinder is cut away (??)

BMur · #5 06-11-2022, 04:43 PM

Linda,
What you have is an early form of "Black Leaf" style engraving. Where the subject is "raised" in the final artistic product. This method or technique is seen most often in the 1860's originating in Germany so likely a German engraver.

I have a few Moore's 32 Teat-fire revolvers that date to the same time as this gun would. Moore's revolvers having this pattern on the cylinder are often "Gold Plated" and are extremely nice collectables. Often with fancy ivory or pearl grips like yours. They were also often presentation pieces to significant individuals. I do not believe this work was done by the factory. It was initiated by the Major Distributor for a specific unknown client at that time. Likely around the Civil War time period or soon thereafter.

So, that's the basic theme with this piece. It was likely originally Silver or perhaps a mix of silver and gold plating. If you look really close, you might find some of the original Gold or Silver finish remaining.

I'd post one of my Moore's pistols but they are buried in the vault. Very elegant pieces.

Also, from a standpoint of time consumption? This type of engraving was extremely time consuming and likely the most expensive to apply.

Even Tiffany pieces are not this elegant in my opinion. They used a form of "ACID etching" that is extremely nice but not anywhere as elegant as these are when original finish still remains.

If it was my piece? I would be very tempted to take it to a jeweler and price a Gold/Silver replating job. It deserves a professional restoration in my opinion and the value would soar big time.

If I had to guess? I would say this gun was originally Silver plated both frame and barrel with a Silver plated cylinder and Gold plated Knight, Sheild, castle, etc.

See Photo.

Murph

2152hq · #6 06-11-2022, 05:10 PM

The raised pattern subject is done by a combination of background relief with graver cuts & acid etching the background away.
The etching is what leaves the edges of the subject(s) a bit 'soft' instead of sharply defined as if they were instead cut by chisel & hammer (chased).

Sometimes the design is gone backover with gravers and sharpened up to redefine the edges.
They are also often gone over on the interior surfaces of the subjects and have detail lines added with graver cuts that are easier to apply than trying to etch them in., Etching & extra fine detail are difficuly to achieve.

Often the entire scene was then finished off w/plating or selectively plated for a more dramatic effect.

Some engravers used/use acid etching to cut away background when doing deep relief work in game scenes especially.
It can be a time saver I was told but I never could catch the knack of using it.
It does leave a very nice, dark matted background surface though and that is one thing it has going for it.

digi-shots · #7 06-11-2022, 08:12 PM

Wow, that’s a lot of info to process! The fellow that owns the gun thought it might have been silver plated. I can see some silver popping through.

The background does have a darkened color with very small textured vertical lines. You can feel the raised surface where the knight, castle, etc. are. You can make out what I think is a halberd weapon and another knight.

I’m a little familiar with acid etching with the raised surfaces plated.

It is an interesting piece and would fun to research. I figured it might have a European connection considering the “theme” and nothing like the western or military/naval/artillery themes you usually see.

I’ll start doing some reading on “Black Leaf”… it’s a new term for me.

Thanks

first-model · #8 06-11-2022, 08:59 PM

Linda, the assembly number on the frame doesn't match that on the barrel and cylinder (which do appear to be matched). Ergo, the gun was put together from two "halves."

This will, unfortunately, make it impossible to get any factory documentation about whether this gun might have been some sort of factory special commission, since the only serialized part on the tip-ups is the frame. Since the original frame was swapped out, there's no way to know what the correct serial number would have been for the barrel and cylinder.

Without any provenance to document it, I'm afraid I don't think it'd be worth a lot.

Still, an interesting piece. That sort of relief scene on the cylinder is pretty rare on Smiths from this era.

Mike

2152hq · #9 06-11-2022, 09:33 PM

German Black Leaf is more usually associated with a scroll engraving style.
In Germany in the trade it's called Altdeutscher Laubgravur,,, Old German Foliage Engraving.
It has other names and can take in quite a few styles under that name of Black Leaf.
It's been stretched out quite a bit to cover more than it was originally intended to represent.
It's also been mis represented with other scroll style identifiers as well.

Artists are like that..

digi-shots · #10 06-11-2022, 11:41 PM

Mike, thanks for your comments, you made some good points.

I am lost with these early Smith’s. Without looking at the book, I have no idea where the assembly numbers should be, what was standard or what was special order. Silver plating, as well as pearl grips were “special order” for the 1 1/2’s.

What I do wonder is the S10 on the frame… the cylinder and barrel are just numbers, no letters. The frame has both. If this gun was a “special order” could the letter S mean “special”? I don’t have any other model 1 1/2’s to compare the frame markings for both standard blue or nickel finish or special order models.

I know on more modern guns, in addition to the basic serial number, guns were marked with assembly numbers and fitter numbers.. the fitter numbers are usually around the grip frame.
A letter B or N is used to signify blue or nickel.

Neal & Jinks puts this one in the first year of production (1865) and mentions the guns were made by King & Smith in Connecticut and assembled in Springfield, MA. I would hope that they would have kept all the parts together.. or maybe it is a put together gun.

It’s not mine or I would have already lettered it.. but the more I look at it, the more I like it!

BMur · #11 06-12-2022, 12:58 AM

Say Linda,
Can you take a close look on the other side of the grip frame for numbers/letters. Also, are there any scratch numbers on the inside of the pearl grips?

Pearl grips aren't exactly common on this model either. It's an amazing and somewhat difficult combination to put together.

The serial number die stamp 2 matches the assembly number dies on the face of the cylinder and the back of the barrel. This confirms that they were numbered by the factory, but it also confirms that they were numbered or stamped in or around the same time frame. Die stamps didn't last long during that early period and were routinely changed.

I do agree with Mike but I'm just fishing a little here to cover all the possibilities.

Another possibility is a Major Distributor assembly. Since this is a very unusual set up it is actually possible that the Major Distributor put it together with extra parts on hand. They did in fact carry huge supplies of parts for all Smith & Wesson revolvers.

It just seems a stretch to me that this is a put together by some collector back in the day who just happened to have a spare set of Pearl grips to go with this one of a kind cylinder/Silver plating? That's a stretch to me. Usually put togethers have visual oddities and patina miss-match. This one sure doesn't.

Is there any evidence of Silver finish on the frame? If there is Silver on the frame I think the Distributor assembled it on special order. Or the engraver screwed up and put the parts back together in the wrong order from different guns that he was working on. The engraver may have had an order for say 5 of these and simply put the parts back together without the least bit of concern for the assembly number! Why would an engraver care in the least about an assembly number? He wouldn't. Especially if he was filling a multiple order of the same gun, same engraving, same plating.

I don't think this gun deserves to be called a "Put together". Especially if the engraver did it without concern regarding assembly numbers matching. Which I think is a very high probability.

One more comment on the Pearl grips? When looking at your photo of the Frame assembly number? I noticed significant pitting. That pitting is caused by the Pearl grips residing on that frame for a "LONG TIME". That doesn't happen overnight. Ivory and Pearl grips are known for rusting up that area under the grips but it takes a very long time for deep pitting to occur.

Can you post a photo of the inside of the pearl grips? I look at that first photo of the pearl grips and I see some very high quality Pearl grips. Those aren't cheapee's.

My research on engraved guns? It's not unusual to find a factory letter that references say a special order of 5 guns in the same configuration. I have several letters documented in my Colt Newline research that prove this point. The factory would not likely screw up with the assembly numbers but a contract engraver? I think so.

Murph

digi-shots · #12 06-12-2022, 07:05 AM

Murph,

I’ll see about more photos.. when we took the grips off yesterday I noticed a bit of rust and pitting. There was some rust residue/staining on the backs of the pearl. I looked and did not see any numbers scratched into the backs.

The fellow that owns it was going to put the gun into a dip tank - I’ll call him today and tell him to hold off putting the grips back and putting it back into the safe. I’ll see if I can spot any other markings on it and take some photos.

The patina of the gun seemed to match from one end to the other, front and back. If the parts were “put together” it looks like it was a long time ago. Different spots had a silver glow or tone to them, it didn’t look like nickel and I didn’t see any highlights of blue peeking thru.

Were the grip frames numbered during this period of time (1865 first year issue) ? I can see where the cylinder would have an assembly number since it comes out so easily especially when cleaning, reloading, etc.
I don’t know these guns, but an alpha-numeric on the frame seems strange unless they only used 3 digits and ran out of combinations.

The number “0” on the frame looks just like the “0” on the butt - they are both lightly stamped/worn on the left side. The same with the “4”s.. also
a bit broken on upper left side of the number stamping.

Maybe I’m imagining things but I almost can see a number 4 on the grip frame - just to the left of the letter S and almost above it.. it’s ver faint and maybe it’s wishful thinking.

Thanks again
Linda

BMur · #13 06-12-2022, 12:04 PM

Linda,
Just looking at the photo's and "with and open mind"? I can't see how anyone could have put this together to match in metal color, matching lack of finish, and Pearl grips on a pitted grip frame. I agree that the parts have been together for a very long time. This only supports that the engraver did it.

When we look at a Colt revolver of that period? You will note that the serial numbers are exposed and easily seen on the barrel, frame, trigger guard and backstrap. However, this model you can't see the assembly numbers unless you take the gun apart. That also supports that the engraver did it. Along with special orders like this were often more than one gun included in the order. So mixing the parts up is very possible.

It's a stretch in my opinion that someone many years ago "put this together". It's not a stretch that the engraver simply put the barrel and cylinder on a non factory original assembly number matching frame. Once those Pearl grips are on the frame there is no way to tell and "NOBODY" would even care except for a collector 150 years later!!

It was likely more than one gun engraved like this on a contract with a Major Distributor. If it was say 5 guns? It would be hard to prove since you'd have to find another one. Good luck with that! However, it's easy to see an engraver having multiple guns apart on his/her workbench and without visible matching numbers? It would be easy to put a non assembly number matching gun together as a final product "contract engraved gun". All you need is an open mind.

Murph

first-model · #14 06-12-2022, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digi-shots

I am lost with these early Smith’s. Without looking at the book, I have no idea where the assembly numbers should be, what was standard or what was special order. Silver plating, as well as pearl grips were “special order” for the 1 1/2’s.

What I do wonder is the S10 on the frame… the cylinder and barrel are just numbers, no letters. The frame has both. If this gun was a “special order” could the letter S mean “special”? I don’t have any other model 1 1/2’s to compare the frame markings for both standard blue or nickel finish or special order models.

Linda, these numbers are referred to as "assembly numbers" and were used on all of the tip-ups (Model 1, Model 1 1/2, and Model 2). Here's an explanation of how this all worked.

The barrel, cylinder and frame are matched parts. That means that there's a degree of hand fitting required to make these three parts fit together properly. By extension, that means that the barrel and/or cylinder from one gun can't just be indiscriminately swapped with the same parts from another gun, since the fitting work is unique to each gun.

Early in the manufacturing process, these three parts were stamped with an assembly number. This is just a short random string of letters, numbers, and in some cases some strange little characters (I recall seeing three dots, a heart, and there were probably some others). The assembly number's only purpose is to allow these three parts to be matched up as they go through the manufacturing and finishing processes. The assembly number has no other significance once the gun leaves the factory, other than to let us know that these three parts are factory-correct (or not).

The gun itself gets serialized later in the manufacturing process—as I mentioned before, just before the frame gets annealed and finished. The earliest S&W Model 1 revolvers (from roughly 1858 and prior) had the actual serial number stamped on all of these parts. As the company refined their mass-production processes, though, the assembly number came into use—I suspect because it was easier to track the serial numbers later in the manufacturing process.

In terms of affecting the gun's collectibility: I can tell you that among tip-up collectors (these are my specialty), it's one of the first things that we check for—especially on a gun like this that has a particularly unique feature. If this work was factory-commissioned (and if this could be substantiated by factory records), then it would make the gun very valuable indeed, since it's an unusual style of embellishment not commonly found on these guns. But since we know that the frame was swapped out (and the frame is the only serialized part), it would probably be impossible to know what the original frame's serial number was—and, by extension, whether this work was commissioned by the factory, or by a downstream wholesaler or distributor or retailer.

It was pretty common for the distributors and retailers to swap the grips on these guns, since they were just held on by a single screw. It was an easy way to dress up a gun (and increase the profit margin). Sometimes you'll find a serial number penciled on the inside of one of the grip panels. Of course, a pencil mark can easily be forged ... but if yours has it, then that would lend some credibility that the grips are correct to the gun. Or, if the serial number doesn't match the frame, then it may give you some clue about what the gun's actual serial number was, if the grips are original to the barrel and cylinder. Lots of "ifs."

In any event, I don't want to set unrealistic expectations about its value. To a serious tip-up collector, it's an interesting piece ... but the mismatched frame really hurts its value. And much beyond that, it's a finger-in-the-wind to guess what it could actually be worth.

Mike