Hello to everybody!
I've inherited this model 3, it belonged to my great great grand father and wanted to know more about it, i was not able to find any serial number on it. I would aprecciate any information you could give me. Thank you in advance.

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You have a S&W New Model #3, probably an early one due to the length of the housing for the extractor. The guns were built between 1877 and 1898, with some sold after that date.
There are several other serial number areas to check besides the bottom of the grip frame (this one was partially obliterated by the post-factory lanyard stud): The back of the cylinder, the rear vertical face of the barrel between the 'ears' for the barrel latch (on both sides of the cut for the latch), and the bottom of the latch itself.

By configuration, it looks like a New Model Number Three.

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I've still got it made.

As said above, you have a New Model #3. They were made in several differnt calibers, however .44 Russian is the most common. The serial number on the butt ( ending in ...17 ) has been oblitered by the after market addition of the lanyard ring, but will appear on other parts as mentioned. Once you determine the complete serial number, you can obtain a S&W Historical letter that will tell you when, where and to whom, the gun was shipped and it's configuration when shipped. It appears from your photos that the gun is missing the cap screw on the right side of the barrel hinge. ( It actually is backward, as it belongs on the right side ) You might be able to get a replacement from JackFirstGunParts.com. Ed

. . . and that screw 'opoefc' mentioned actually belongs on the LEFT side; The hollow barrel joint pivot pin has been stuck in backwards.

I'm glad to see that you were able to remove the lanyard stud without breaking it off. They can be a bugger to remove. Also, if the SN appears on the left frame under the stocks (grips) then the lanyard ring was probably added by the factory.

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Mike Maher #283

I've found the serial number! It was engraved on the wood inside the stock...is it only 4 numbers right? Or do i need something else?

The stud is threaded, super simple to remove!

I'm looking online for that screw, but haven't been able to find it yet.

The one under the latch is the only one that's complete, all the others have been corroded by rust

. . . and the mystery number is. . . ?

If the number on the bottom of the latch ends in '17,' then it's a reasonable guess that it matches what was on the butt. However, if it does not do so, then it's anybody's guess what the real number once was, as the latch is an easily-replaced part. As to the number beneath the grips, S&W first stamped the serial number, changing to pencil markings circa 1900. If that number ALSO ends in '17,' you have it identified. Otherwise, same as for the latch.
If you are uncomfortable posting the complete serial number that you've found, an internet search will help you to 'bracket' when the gun was shipped or manufactured. All of these are antiques under US law, by the way.

"The stud is threaded, super simple to remove!". Consider yourself very lucky. The threaded stud is often rusted to the frame and snaps off leaving the threaded part in the hole.

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Mike Maher #283

so, is it a 44 Russian caliber? What number did you find on the wood grip? Does the action work? Can you post a photo of the gun open with back of cylinder, looking down the tube, etc.
Thanks,

Murph

2817!!
I live in Argentina, the knowledge i've got on the gun is that it was used in the "Conquest of the desert" an argentine military expansion. And given to My great great grandfather, he was a navy captain.

Lucky me then!!!

It works perfectly, except for the pivot screw missing. I can't take one right now, but i'll post it tomorrow!!!

You are luckier than you think.

At SN 2817, your great great grandfather's gun falls in the proper serial range for one of 2002 S&W NM3s sold to Argentina at the very beginning of production (between SN50 and 3400), circa 1881. They were sold to Argentina by New York City dealers Schuyler, Hartley & Graham. His being in the Argentine Navy supports this being one of those revolvers. If you look VERY closely, you MAY find the remnants of the marking 'Ejercito/Argentino' stamped on the frame ahead of the trigger guard.
I believe that your gun has been reblued at some point, but the smooth wood grips are probably original. It is almost certainly chambered in .44 Russian, which is still being made. Given that this gun was shipped 'overseas,' and for a government order (not to S&W directly, but to SH&G), it is possible that the lanyard loop IS original, installed by the factory after the serial number was stamped to fill the order, so look again for a serial number stamped into the left side of the grip frame.

You have a real piece of history, my friend.

. . . of course, I HAD to look up 'Conquest of the Desert.' Oh, MY! Maybe we don't want to talk about that.

Here there are some more pictures, the extractor works perfect, and so does everything else. I could not find any "ejército argentino" markings.

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And here the serial number.

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There isn't a lot more to say about your revolver; Everything points to it being an Argentine government order gun as I mentioned, contemporary to your relative's service.
I do think that the gun has been refurbished, perhaps at a government arsenal long ago; The cylinder may also be a replacement, or at least has been heavily polished on its rear face as no pitting is present, and no remnant of the serial number remains.
If you're comfortable with what you now know, there is nothing else that I can tell you. If you wish, you could obtain a letter for the gun with the factory's information on it (instructions are on this site).

Update: I did find a copy of an S&W letter by Mr. Jinks from 2006 regarding one of these Argentine revolvers; It states that such-and-such serial number in .44 Russian was shipped from S&W to Hartley & Graham on 1/10/1881. This particular gun, a lower SN than yours, was shipped with a 6.5" barrel, blued, and had checkered hard-rubber grips--not wood. It also says that the shipment including this gun was for 2002 pieces, and that the shipment guns had 'stamping,' but not what the stamping was for nor whom the order was manufactured.
As your gun does not appear to have the Argentine Army stamping, and has numbered wood grips, it is possible that yours was an individual order--or differed from the one mentioned in the letter, as these guns weren't necessarily all 'manufactured' for the order, as some may have been sourced from 'stock,' and modified to suit (by the addition of the sling swivel post-marking of the serial number, for example). Sadly, the markings may have been obliterated during the refinish, as the characters were not very deep.
No matter what, though, you have a 141-year-old survivor from your country's past, and it's remarkably well preserved for a gun that saw active service for years.

Thank you so much for all the information!!!

I am going to piggyback onto this thread and ask how do you tell the Russian .44 from .44 SW? And isn’t the .44 SW obsolete? I ask because I am looking at a model 3 but but I can only find one serial number on the gun and no other markings. I was going to ,see an offer but scared myself out of the acquisition…should I go back..

I don't think they made double actions in .44 S&W "American."

moralem, the gun you posted is a Mod. 3 DA in .44 S&W Russian caliber. The .44 S&W American is a longer obsolete cartridge and pre-dates the .44 Russsian by 30 yrs. Ed

The 44 American (44S&W) cylinder is bored straight through
The 44 Russian has a sharp ridge 2/3 down.
A model 3 DA in 44 American would be rare if there are any.
The Russian was introduced 1 or 2 years after the American (1871-1872)

I'm more interested in the grips.

Can you put a little more light on the subject? They look like Mottled grips. More photo's please.

Murph

Hello Segundo. nice post and neat gun. Please do not clean or change any parts! There is nothing you can do to enhance its beauty. Its the the best it is going to be. And no steel wool!! Just oil and leave it alone. It is over 100years old, it deserves a long rest. And dont shoot it. Mike

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Thanks to opoefc and iby for the clarification. I had no idea what I was looking at. I am going to go back and make an offer. And yes the grips are mottled colored. Kind of like a coltwood plastic. I have no idea if they are original….more to come I hope. But I am hesitant to get it because there simply aren’t any markings or serial numbers on the cylinder or other parts they should be on.

"..the grips are mottled colored... I have no idea if they are original…." Yes, they are original and collectible. They are not found very often on the big DA 44's.

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Mike Maher #283

No serial numbers?

I've seen a few copies of the large frame Smith & Wesson's that are literally a clone. Would fool anyone at a glance without hands on inspection.

Make sure it has a very clear two-line barrel address that begins with Smith & Wesson. (Spelt correctly). The copies never get the spelling right.

The grip looks correct to me but need better light photos of both grips. No way to authenticate this piece based on that one photo. I sure hope it's correct and you get a good price for it. If those are original mottled grips you have yourself a rare bird.


No serial numbers on the cylinder/bbl/ latch is a warning of a copy or a put together. This is a tough one because of those grips. Need more photos to help you out.

Murph

There is one serial number on the grip frame just not on the cylinder or any other places it could be. I go back there before the week is out to see it again.

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Address stamp looks right to me.

So,
I’d check the action, ejector functional, bore condition, any hint of matching numbers. Hard to believe the barrel number isn’t there?
That number is well protected on the flat adjacent to the latch. Also look at the ratchet teeth for wear and marring.
Close look at those interesting grips also. That really is the selling point for me personally. Like Mike mentioned. There are not a lot of them out there.


Murph

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Action and timing are off. In cocked position lots of cylinder slop. Probably not shootable. Grips are mottled red. And there is a matching serial number barely Visible on the face of the cylinder.


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If the cylinder is matching, the barrel is also likely matching.

Without hands on I can't be sure of the action issue but the most common is a lose barrel to frame fit that causes a lose cylinder lockup. If the latch/catch moves up and down, barrel side to side even slightly it will cause the condition you mentioned. It's repairable with a mild weld on the frame posts.

Time to haggle that price down some. The grips are gorgeous.

Murph

Well, I made an offer. Now it’s time to just wait and see what happens. The gun is on consignment so we know how those things go….you hear something right away or you never hear back. As was pointed out the grips were the best part of the gun.




QUOTE=BMur;141533039]If the cylinder is matching, the barrel is also likely matching.

Without hands on I can't be sure of the action issue but the most common is a lose barrel to frame fit that causes a lose cylinder lockup. If the latch/catch moves up and down, barrel side to side even slightly it will cause the condition you mentioned. It's repairable with a mild weld on the frame posts.

Time to haggle that price down some. The grips are gorgeous.

Murph[/QUOTE]

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If the grips are original to the gun, the serial number may be penciled on the back side of the right grip panel. If you post the ser. # you see on the frame & rear of the cylinder ( as well as the barrel, because, as Murph says, that's where a serial number is seldom worn away,) so check carefully between the "ears" on the rear of the barrel, as well as the bottom of the barrel latch. Both areas would have serial numbers that won't be worn away, if the gun's a S&W, as I beleive it is. It's also possible the red mottled grips are replacement from a revolving rifle. Post the serial number here and I may be able to tell you when the gun was made from my records of Model 3 DA production. Ed

12543



QUOTE=opoefc;141534053]If the grips are original to the gun, the serial number may be penciled on the back side of the right grip panel. If you post the ser. # you see on the frame & rear of the cylinder ( as well as the barrel, because, as Murph says, that's where a serial number is seldom worn away,) so check carefully between the "ears" on the rear of the barrel, as well as the bottom of the barrel latch. Both areas would have serial numbers that won't be worn away, if the gun's a S&W, as I beleive it is. It's also possible the red mottled grips are replacement from a revolving rifle. Post the serial number here and I may be able to tell you when the gun was made from my records of Model 3 DA production. Ed[/QUOTE]

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Sure is a good fit

32343 ??? If so, 32343 was made Sept 27, 1905, as part of a production of 100 blue guns. No mention in the records of it having red mottled stocks. Ed .

From what I can tell the first digit is a 1.


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My guess 32543.

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Mike Maher #283

Pretty sure it’s a 1…….here is an enlarged and enhanced picture.


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Absolutely is 12543.

I wish my camera would take close-ups like that.

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Mike Maher #283

Maybe it can! For the longest time I thought my phone couldn’t do that, but there’s a scroll in feature that looks like an arc and I can use my thumb to zoom in as much as 5.0 times.

If you look at the design pattern you will notice a atmospheric swirling pattern to the grip color design that projects a very artistic tone. Unlike the splatter appearance of the circa 1878 Red Mottled grip design. I like them both but the swirl is a true eye catcher in my book. Seems to be a post 1880 design but Mark is the authenticator.

Murph

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Both of the stocks seem to have a depression under the diamond. Do you experts have any explanation of what might have caused this? Always looking to learn about the older S&W firearms.

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James Redfield
LM #497

In my opinion the grips are original factory "Red Mottled Grips".

The appearance is exactly what I personally would expect to see with grips this old on a gun in this condition.

The wear pattern mentioned is also familiar to me personally. Family history of law enforcement dates back to the late 1800's.

My grandfather had a quick draw rig called a "Clamshell holster" that was actually made here in California. I kick myself often when I think about that rig because it was lost and even as a kid after Grandpa was long gone and playing with it with my older brother, I saw the historical value in keeping that rig.

Anyway, water under the bridge...... Common problem with that old rig was the spring would weaken after many years of field use, the internal lining would wear, and the gun would slip down lower than normal with the grips riding on this spring-loaded nub, resulting in a constant rubbing on the grips. That's exactly the marking that was on my grandfather's 38 revolver. Not quite the same location and his gun had wood stocks, but the same rubbing worn pattern as I remember.

This large frame DA dates to the 1880's. Lacking a logo on the frame. This gun has been there and done that. I like it a lot. I hope the OP gets it so we can see more photos.


Murph

I agree with the comments that they are real Smith & Wesson mottled grips. They even look like they may be original to the gun based on their fit. Original finish revolvers that have hard rubber grips that were replaced or changed (solid black or mottled) don't fit to the frame. They either are slightly smaller in some spots or are slightly larger in other spots. Hard rubber stocks shrink very, very little over time, if they have not had extreme temperatures applied to them. Based on the pictures it looks like they are original, but a hands on assessment is necessary.

Here is another thread for a 44 DA with mottled grips

Is this a 44 Double Action First Model?

Great looking revolver.

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Mark

I am still working on the deal……the consignor has gone missing and has not returned their calls…..not looking good but not giving up hope.