“RARE” Short barrel 1 1/2 “New Model” 32rf

BMur · #1 07-14-2022, 04:08 PM

This has to be the biggest oddity regarding Tip-up barrel lengths.
I picked up a 2 3/4” barrel length New Model 1 1/2 tip up and was sure the barrel length was original. The letter came back confirming the length as original.

ALL references that I could find list only the standard 3 1/2” and Rare 2 1/2” barrel lengths. Of the over 100,000 manufactured “ less than” 1000 were made with 2 1/2” barrels. That’s all I could find. Yet read the letter!

Question; How many were made with 2 3/4” barrels? Which length is the rarest?

See factory letter photo 1 claiming actually there were 3 short barrel lengths!

Photo 2: Standard 3 1/2”
Photo 3: odd ball 2 3/4”
Photo 4: rare 2 1/2”

Murph

gmborkovic · #2 07-14-2022, 05:40 PM

Murph, neat gun. Was the roll address on the rib adjusted as the barrel got shorter? Was the front sight pinned or forged?

BMur · #3 07-14-2022, 06:12 PM

Great questions Mike,

In my opinion they represent different variations. By that I mean the 2 1/2” and 2 3/4” are “NOT” the same short barrel variant. As a collector I think having all barrel lengths listed in factory records would represent a complete collection.

You can see photo one in the 2 1/2” barrel length both no pin for the front sight and look closely at how far back the side barrel address stamp goes? All the way to about the center of the barrel pivot screw boss.

Now photo two we see the 2 3/4” barrel and no pin for front sight with the exact same barrel stamp no where near that pivot screw boss.

I have not conducted a survey on this issue but as a collector I want all 3 variations. The 2 5/8 inch barrel to me falls into a nominal length or within tolerance but some may argue since obviously it is listed separately in factory records which is beyond odd to me! More like I have no clue?

Murph

BMur · #4 07-14-2022, 06:48 PM

The Standard barrel length stamp is on top.

Murph

mmaher94087 · #5 07-14-2022, 10:39 PM

OK. Now I need to measure mine. I always assumed that it was a "normal" short barreled 1 1/2. Along the lines of factory barrel lengths, I have a lettered 2" Safety Hammerless that measures 2 1/4".

gmborkovic · #6 07-15-2022, 05:07 PM

These early short barreled guns all ways raise some concerns and questions. I like them and look out for them when Im at shows and meetings.

BMur · #7 07-15-2022, 06:18 PM

I just completed a rudimentary search of serial numbers found.

I found all the 2 1/2” barrel lengths show up between 120400- 120800. So that “ Suggests” they were late production and possibly special ordered in a large shipment? Pure speculation but there is a pattern.

The 2 3/4” barrels seem to be earlier production. So far I’ve found them from 86200- 91300 serial number range.

If we can get some collectors to post what they have in their collections maybe we can confirm these patterns as legit or not.

Murph

H Richard · #8 07-15-2022, 07:32 PM

Always like info on the old 1 1/2's, I had a few unfortunately now all sold off. I didn't see you mention a 4" version. See the attached picture of the two, 3 1/2" and the one 4" RF I had in my collection. The 4" was s/n 19391 which shipped 4/10/1866.

merl67 · #9 07-15-2022, 10:53 PM

At that barrel length it makes for well balanced looking pocket gun a nice addition for sure !

glowe · #10 07-16-2022, 11:55 AM

I believe there were only two standard barrel lengths published, but there were all kinds of odd barrel measurements found on the short barrel version. My guess is that you can find every "sixteenth" increment between 2 1/2" and 2 3/4", so all fall under miscellaneous tolerances. I have owned some and not one of them were exactly 2 1/2' long. I have not measured a 2 3/4", but had a 2 11/16" down to 2 9/16' guns. For example, the two below are slightly different. The one in the case is 2 5/8" and the other is 2 9/16". 1869 S&W Price List offers two barrel lengths for the Model 1 1/2, 2nd Issue, but they were 3 1/2" and 4", with no short barrels. I have not seen a Model 1 1/2 with a pinned front sight.

Also, I often question if they were truly rare. They were shipped in lots like the one I have shown in this factory letter and others I have read. Having owned a half-dozen over the years, and seeing many for sale, they might only qualify as scarce. Problem is that many of the records during this timeframe were lost

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mmaher94087 · #11 07-16-2022, 12:15 PM

Murph, here are three:
91338 - 2 3/4"
106997 - 2 5/8"
107384 - 2 5/8"

As Gary noted, these barrels are actually 1/16" longer that the nominal lengths listed above. Ruler vs caliper.

BMur · #12 07-16-2022, 02:03 PM

The posted production numbers for the "short barrel variation" are from The Book; "History of Smith & Wesson" By Roy Jinks page 57 in which he states: " The factory produced a limited quantity of less than 1000 revolvers having a barrel length of 2 1/2".

Since. Dr. Jinks has access to factory records, I believe those numbers.

Mike's additional serial numbers along with Glowe's factory letter and serial number fit "exactly" in the rudimentary survey that I have taken on barrel lengths and serial numbers found.

The 2 1/2" is definitely found in the 120,400-120,800 range so far.

The 2 3/4 barrel length from 86,200-91,700

And now the 2 5/8" in the 106,000+ serial number range.

Still not enough information but again, definitely a pattern developing.

What I'm suggesting is that the barrel lengths are based on when they were made in batches. The Laythe was tooled to a specific length for the special short barrel that was not standard production.

It's the same pattern that I found with the Wells Fargo Schofield contracts having slightly different barrel lengths based on what contract they were filled from. With each contract the applicable Laythe had to be re-adjusted to length which resulted in a slight difference in barrel length production. However, for us? a form of ID.

Oh, as far as value? Some of the finer condition examples sold for over $2000. That's not engraved examples. I've not found any engraved except for page 57 of Mr. Jinks book. If you have his book take a look at it. Wonderful piece.

Murph

BMur · #13 07-16-2022, 03:52 PM

I had forgotten about this early broadsheet.

Looks like the 2 3/4” barrel might have been a standard length.

Which suggests that folks are routinely miss identifying them as a rare 2 1/2” barrel.

This “does not” explain why the 2 3/4” barrel is NOT listed in any references though?

This is an original period broadsheet and the 2 3/4” barrel length is clearly listed as available right along side the short barrel 1-3.

Somebody dropped the ball!

Notice it is also listed as chambering the 32 Long!

****The point being that they were copying the Smith & Wesson revolvers exactly. They are duplicates of what Smith & Wesson manufactured. Including barrel lengths available.

Murph

glowe · #14 07-16-2022, 07:11 PM

That flyer is not S&W, as they never called their 1 1/2 revolvers "Deringers", so it does not help much. We do know that all Model 1 1/2 and Model 2 revolvers were chambered for 32 Long RF.

Nonetheless, Roy had stated 1,000 Model 1 1/2s that were shipped with a short barrel, but knowing that part of the records were destroyed is further complicating the question of how many were made. 1,000 would not be considered rare by any standards. I hold to the thought that the factory did not care where they cut those barrels and none of the lengths measured mean that there are any rare lengths amongst the short barreled Model 1 1/2. Also, there are two ways to measure the barrels. Some will measure from the face of the cylinder while others will mic the barrel only, resulting in slightly different numbers. The looser the barrel and cylinder, the longer the barrel would be by one method.

BMur · #15 07-16-2022, 07:59 PM

Well,
Irregardless of our individual opinions, the fact is the barrel lengths came from the factory ledger. I didn't make them up. If the factory didn't care about the barrel lengths, why did they document them so accurately? Why not just document them all as a 2 1/2" barrel variation and just go with a gross 1/4" tolerance excuse?

We also can't trash a legitimate period broadsheet just because it didn't originate from Smith & Wesson. That broadsheet clearly documents what is now fact from the factory records. The existence of a 2 3/4" barrel variation. None of this is my opinion. My question is still not answered. Why isn't the 2 3/4" barrel variation accounted for in collector references?

That broadsheet is the only reference that I have ever seen. The Distributor didn't make that up! It might be that due to the limited records? Maybe they didn't plug in the 2 3/4" barrel length as standard available length.

This is not an anomaly from gun manufacturers of that period. Special barrel lengths are not unheard of. Even as little as 1/4" less than was Standard length just because a client wanted a specific length and didn't care what it cost.

Murph

glowe · #16 07-16-2022, 08:14 PM

Maybe you could check the barrel lengths that it states for the Model 1 versus what Roy calls them???? What would you call my 2 11/16" barrel? Maybe the rarest of them all!

I see your mind is made up, so little use to continue the discussion.

mmaher94087 · #17 07-16-2022, 08:25 PM

Smith & Wesson didn't care what the actual dimensions were. They were a very frugal company that refused to throw away a finished part they previously paid for. The Transition Model 1 1/2's are a good example. Smith & Wesson also had the only Drop Forge in the Connecticut valley. To extrapolate my thoughts, based upon written accounts, S&W probably kept all scrap and figured a way to utilize the parts so as to incur minimum financial impact on the business. I.e., reuse imperfect barrel forgings by cutting them shorter. From an engineering viewpoint, S&W would take a basket of rejected forgings, measure for the shortest defective part and cut to that length. So far, it looks like S&W cleaned house on three different occasions giving collectors three short barrels to collect.

BMur · #18 07-16-2022, 08:42 PM

The 2 11/16th's barrel length for the 1-3 is listed in Flaydermans. So there is reference to that length existing. Since they were manufactured at the same time as the 1 1/2 Second issue 32 rimfire it's my opinion that there is more to the story on these scarce to rare barrel lengths. If we don't have an open mind we won't be able to identify them. You mentioned yourself that factory records are incomplete from this time period.

Notice also that the broadsheet does not mention the 2 1/2" barrel 32 tip up but we know one exists. One of the common denominators with Major Distributor listings, especially early ones, is an incomplete barrel length available to any given model.

I agree with Mike. More to collect! but you have to identify them first as existing and update the list. Then let the market determine their individual value. I want one of each!

Murph

Schof45 · #19 07-17-2022, 02:53 PM

My 1 1/2 with serial no 120556 has what I believe is a factory original barrel of 2 5/8".

BMur · #20 07-17-2022, 07:23 PM

I found several more short barrel variations and documented what I could.

Still seeing a pattern of 2 1/2" barrel variations that are found in one factory letter described as "SPECIAL SHORT BARREL VARIATION" expanding the serial number range from 19970-120800.

Another factory lettered gun described by the auction house as stating that 5800 short barrel variations were shipped with "LESS THAN" 1000 of the "SPECIAL 2 1/2" barrel shipped".

I'm only posting what I'm finding not adding my opinion until I get more information.

Murph

BMur · #21 07-17-2022, 11:23 PM

I looked through all my Early Major Distributor references and could find no listing whatsoever of a short barrel for the 1 1/2 Second issue. All listings are for the 3 1/2" barrel Standard. That is up to the year 1875.

In addition, when we cross reference factory letters, we find that the "short barrel" variation was shipped late in production. In fact the factory records that I have found reference "ONLY" the year 1875 when the last 6000 were sold to M. Robinson. 1875 represents the last year of production.

From the earliest serial number in my research that letters in the 86,000 serial number range to the latest in the 120,800. All shipped in 1875. Last year of production. Which supports Mike's theory that they basically gathered up what they had a made the parts work.

This also suggests that missing records would be of no consequence since they were only manufactured at the "end" of the line.

Very interesting research.

With this information, I would estimate that the 2 3/4" barrel was the largest of the lot produced with the 2 1/2" barrel being the least or rarest. I have no idea where to place the 2 5/8" length?

The 2 1/2" barrel length would represent less than 1% of the total production with the 2 3/4" barrel likely less than 3%.

I have not done the research on the 1-3 but since they were manufactured during this exact same period, I would wager the odd barrel lengths mimic the last year of production seen with the 1 1/2 Second issue. Assembling what was left.

This also answers my question as to why the 2 3/4" barrel was not listed as Standard production. Because it was assembled with remaining parts during the last year of production/assembly.

Murph

danalex · #22 07-18-2022, 05:33 AM

Mon 1 1/2 avec le numéro de série 107041 a ce que je crois être un canon de 2 11/16".

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