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08-13-2022, 06:15 PM
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ANTIQUE 44 Russian “ Hollow Point”?
I’ve never been able to prove there was a 44 Hollow Point bullet available during the black powder era for the 44 Russian until now.
I’ve seen several early 44 Russian bullet molds that have the cavity tunneled out for a hollow point insert but the insert has always been missing so I was never convinced one actually existed during that early period. Thought they were home made and drilled out at a later date. Therefore altered from original solid lead round nose bullets.
The 44 Express hollow point was “proven” and available in 1870 see photo. Keep in mind that the 44 WCF was chambered in thousands of pistols via the Frontier Models. So folks were shooting black powder hollow points out of 44 pistols since their introduction! The rounds were readily available.
Reloaders also were well aware of the superior stopping power of the lead hollowpoint bullet by circa 1870. So reloading using hollow point bullets would also have been common.
See photos.
The last photo is proof positive that the heavy original 246 grain round nose 44 Russian in black powder was available in a hollow point bullet.
Kinda gives me an increased respect for the rounds potential in the black powder era of the 1870’s. It’s now on my bucket list to test this round in a S&W 44 Russian revolver.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-14-2022 at 09:07 PM.
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08-13-2022, 07:28 PM
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More proof?
This photo only further proves hollow points were being used often in the black powder era on a pistol platform. Word of mouth regarding game & stopping power was true among hunters back then as now.
Green label UMC box circa 1880’s/1890’s.
Murph
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08-14-2022, 11:01 PM
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I surmise by the lack of response that your proof does not include factory .44 Russian hollow points. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a HOLLOW POINT CARTRIDE made by an 1870's cartridge company in .44 S&W caliber Russian. I'm sure that it could be reloaded but the bullets shown are probably for the .44-40 which is a different cartridge all together.
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08-14-2022, 11:47 PM
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44 Russian Hollow point
Mike,
The early term used was “EXPRESS” by cartridge manufacturer’s. That was the hollow point round for “any” caliber. That would include the 44 Russian. The term originated from cartridge companies.
Typically I’ve found that reloading tools of that Era mimic rounds that were manufactured by cartridge companies. I know of no tools that loaded any given cartridge that didn’t match factory ammo until the smokeless era brought the reloader huge variables and powders to chose from.
Hard to find? For sure but that doesn’t mean they weren’t manufactured. I’ve personally never seen an original “Express” round in any caliber! Cartridge collectors I’m sure gobbled them up.
Yet in my Distributor catalog collection they are listed and sold for over 16 different calibers! I’ve never seen one! Been collecting for a long time. How many original black powder hollow points have you seen?
I have a few “ Express” reloading tools in my collection. Some were actually manufactured by cartridge companies like UMC and Winchester. If they made the tool in my opinion they made the round. I personally see that clearly.
Ideal made “EXPRESS” or modern term Hollow point molds that You can trace back to 1884 for ANY caliber to order. It was not a special order. It was a special tool but clearly part of standard equipment available at that time.( see photo of actual HP tool circa 1884) This was for any caliber on the standard tool listing.
Then as now most people get in the ammo line and buy their ammo. They don’t reload. My point is only that they existed and from a reloading standpoint they were obviously readily available and from multiple sources. Why early boxes are not more often seen I don’t know but old collectors tend to have all the rare items stashed away in large collections for 60+ years or more that are rarely shared.
Murph
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08-15-2022, 01:22 AM
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Correct 44 Russian Mold
Also,
The mold that I photo’d in my first post photo 3 is an all original Ideal Single Cavity 44 Russian iron mold with the original H.P. Insert. The number stamped on the mold and bullet design is seen in this photo.
So it is in fact an original 44 Russian Hollow point mold. I won it at auction don’t have possession yet but it represents rock solid proof of an early “ original” HP mold for the original BP bullet. Complete with original HP insert. I’ve never seen one complete before.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-15-2022 at 01:26 AM.
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08-15-2022, 11:55 AM
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I'm still having problems believing that a factory .44 Russian hollow point load existed at that time. Your first post shows a drawing of an unknown caliber, hollow point express "rifle bullet". The second is a .44-40 (not Russian). The third, mold photo, is unmarked and proves nothing... yet. The UMC box is .44 What? It says "Rifle". I can only assume .44-40 since it says Winchester, Marlin and (?). When you get the mold, please post photos of the .44 Russian markings. At this point, I believe .44 Russian hollow points were reloads only. A cartridge company would not use a single cavity mold.
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08-15-2022, 01:01 PM
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Very Limited information available
Folks out there that take the time to perform research are those that are providing information for collectors. It's a very slow process that takes years of study.
The truth is that there is not much left out there. Often we are piecing together what's left. Cartridge history is one of the most difficult subjects to research since there literally is very little left from remaining catalogs of the Black Powder Era. "VERY FEW" remain.
The mold I just purchased is marked and I will post a better photo once I have it but the bullet number (429184) is what I posted in the previous post and is identified as a 44 Russian bullet. I'm anxious to see it since it might have additional markings that identify the Express bullet.
Again, my studies of Ideal are very detailed and that company never manufactured a mold or product that was not available on the market at that time.
Literally "all" of their bullet molds and loads mimic "exactly" what was manufactured during the black powder era. That much I am certain and have detailed notes that will back up that position.
So, if Ideal manufactured a mold or a tool for a Hollow point or "Express" bullet. It's a given that the bullet and load was available as manufactured during that period. Just because we can't find it today doesn't mean it didn't exist.
Especially since a box of original "Express" ammo can sell for $4500-$10,000 on today's market! The original tools are also very expensive. Often 3-4 times more than standard antique caliber tools. $400-$600 on average and they actually do sell for that price, quickly. I watch them when they show up.
I was lucky to get this "EXPRESS" hollow point 44 Russian mold. It was listed incorrectly.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-15-2022 at 01:18 PM.
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08-15-2022, 02:30 PM
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I guess I’m the only confused one here.
Are you saying there was a commercially available .44 Russian round factory loaded with a hollowpoint bullet?
Even if an actual round or box of rounds hasn’t survived, wouldn’t there be an advertisement, flyer, magazine article, or book with a mention of it?
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08-15-2022, 02:39 PM
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Ideal Field Tools
I also have a very early Ideal field loading tool and a single cavity wood handle bullet mold for the 44 Russian that are machined for the "Express" bullet. The problem being that the original inserts are missing so the tools are incomplete. Unlike the one I just purchased that is complete.
The photo'd tool actually dates to 1884-1887 and is the first type tool having the primer pocket on the mold block. This is the only first model tool that I have ever seen in the 44 Russian. It is clearly a 44 Russian tool and has the EX. stamp synonymous with "EXPRESS" next to the caliber mark. Also, if you look closely, you'll note nickel finish still visible in the machined cut out for the hollow point insert. See black arrow.
Unfortunately, the original insert is missing from this tool. I have no idea what the insert even looks like and I've never seen a photo of one.
The photo I posted for the bullet mold and SPECIAL TOOL you can see what the insert looks like. I've never seen one of these either and I've been looking for a long time.
These early tools only further prove that there was a "hollow Point" round available for the 44 Russian during the Black Powder Era. In fact, as early as 1884 from my research. Likely much earlier.
Once the Express rounds were available and proven by hunters and reloaders of that time, it's a given that the hollow point would be loaded in pistols. No brainer from my researched perspective. Just hard to find information from that period. Very hard.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-15-2022 at 02:49 PM.
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08-15-2022, 02:48 PM
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FWIW _ Back in the 1980s, my gun store acquired a Sharps buffalo hunter out fit ,from the heirs of an old Buffalo hunter, that's now in the Gene Autry Museum in LA., The rifle was caliber 44 Sharp's and the rounds ( reloaded) had some that were hollow point. Probably the "Express" bullets described above. Ed
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08-15-2022, 03:10 PM
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Advertisement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45
I guess I’m the only confused one here.
Are you saying there was a commercially available .44 Russian round factory loaded with a hollowpoint bullet?
Even if an actual round or box of rounds hasn’t survived, wouldn’t there be an advertisement, flyer, magazine article, or book with a mention of it?
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Information on the "Express" rounds is extremely limited from the Black Powder Era. The Express transitioned to "Nitro-Express" in the Smokeless Era and the term was then used often for many later rounds that included shotgun and hunting loads in big game rifle. I invite you to try to find any advertisements from that Era. They are rare to say the least.
I guarantee that there is some very old cartridge collector out there that has one or several but is not willing to share that information. Simple as that.
And what they pay for antique cartridge boxes and ammo would stun anyone. $10,000 for a box of ammo? Not me. That's just ridiculous but they are an elite group that is somewhat secretive.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-15-2022 at 03:15 PM.
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08-15-2022, 03:53 PM
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Cartridge head stamp
I have actually never seen "any" Express rounds in any caliber in hand. That's how hard they are to find.
The first rounds that were compatible with pistols were the following":
32-20 WCF, 38-40 WCF & 44-40 WCF Circa: 1873
Colt chambered all of these calibers in their pistols. Smith and Wesson also did during the black powder ERA. Once it became common knowledge of the performance of the Express rounds in both pistols and rifles the obvious took place.
The photo depicts a post 1883 head stamped 38-40WCF black powder cartridge. That's what the marking looks like on an Express cartridge that is "manufactured" by cartridge companies of that ERA. Prior to 1884 they were unmarked!! the only distinguishing feature would be the hollow point bullet. Likely many of the originals were reloaded with solid bullets after being shot since the Express reloading tools even back then cost a lot more than standard tools.
Again, Cartridge collectors have long known about "Express Rounds" and their rarity. They purchase them whenever they see them so they don't stay available for very long.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-16-2022 at 02:09 AM.
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08-18-2022, 06:24 PM
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Mold arrived
The mold arrived.
It is definitely 100% correct and represents a complete early “EXPRESS” hollow point mold for the early black powder bullet introduced in about 1887 for the 44 Russian caliber pistol.
Bullet number matches exactly what is seen on the original list from an 1891 reference and is identified as a 44 Russian bullet.
Notice also an early ad clearly lists the “ Express” ball type mold available for any caliber on the earliest type wood handle single cavity molds also circa February of 1891.
This is rock solid proof that the hollow point bullet was readily available during the black powder era for any caliber bullet and that the “EXPRESS” identifier was not solely used for rifle calibers! Pistols were most definitely “included” on a STANDARD tool available at the time!
If a customer wanted a hollow point bullet for their pistol no doubt cartridge companies would manufacture same and in my opinion like the box of bullets I posted as marked and “ Clearly Labeled“ “Hollow Point”? The same would apply for loaded boxes of cartridges. Good luck finding one!
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-18-2022 at 06:46 PM.
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08-18-2022, 08:23 PM
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Nice mold. I have no doubt that the 1887 aftermarket manufacturers made hollow point molds, but I still do not think cartridge manufacturers in 1870 made hollow point cartridges for the .44 Russian caliber. Three pages of .44 Russian cartridges in Charles Suydam's "U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns 1795 - 1975, (1977, Beinfield), list Outside Lubricated, Inside Lubricated and Auxiliary Loads. Nowhere is a hollow point, .44 Russian cartridge mentioned, discussed or illuatrated.
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08-18-2022, 10:58 PM
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Cartridge Company
It's already proven that Winchester and UMC both manufactured not only cartridges in volume but reloading tools also in volume. Winchester is clearly documented as manufacturing "Express" reloading tools. However, as I mentioned above. The rare tools when found are always missing the insert so doubters simply claim that the mold has been modified (drilled out) when found. See photo of Winchester "Express reloading tool".
We also know for a fact that both Winchester and UMC manufactured Express rounds for the 32, 38, and 44WCF and about 14 other large volume rifles. Many actually chambered in a huge number of common pistols of that ERA. This fact is only due to the "Aftermarket records remaining mostly intact". I'm not aware of any surviving Cartridge Company records that list all of their Express rounds available. the information has been pieced together by researchers.
I challenge anyone to find a 44 WCF "Express" round or box of rounds. That caliber was "extremely popular" yet no Express rounds survived. Except in older cartridge collector's collections.
All of these calibers are hard to find today. Complete tools with inserts are impossible to find. Even boxes of ammunition in the most common calibers.
The 44 Russian is on a long list of "no surviving cartridges"
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-18-2022 at 11:06 PM.
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08-18-2022, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur
This photo only further proves hollow points were being used often in the black powder era on a pistol platform. Word of mouth regarding game & stopping power was true among hunters back then as now.
Green label UMC box circa 1880’s/1890’s.
Murph
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The box says it’s for rifles. Not pistols.
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08-18-2022, 11:43 PM
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If you make the claim, the burden of proof is on you. Saying there is no examples of something else is not proof of what you claim.
Show a box of .44 Russian hollowpoints, an advertisement, a reference in a contemporary book or magazine, anything other than typing EXPRESS in bold letters.
Personally, I don’t think there was ever such a thing, but I am open to actual proof I am wrong.
Not this.
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08-18-2022, 11:43 PM
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I don't doubt that Winchester and UMC manufactured cartridges and loading tools "in volume". I don't doubt that they made hollow points either. I doubt that an 1870 cartridge manufacturer made hollow point cartridges for the .44 Russian. "The 44 Russian is on a long list of "no surviving cartridges". Assuming a hollow point .44Russian, then I'll agree as there's no proof that the .44 Russian hollow point existed in 1870.
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08-19-2022, 12:05 AM
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Hollow-point .44 Russian reference
BMur,
You can post all the photos of hollow-point component bullets and bullet molds that you want, but they do not provide any level of proof that any factory loaded .44 Russian ammunition has ever existed at any time in history, let alone the 1870s! Why don't you just give up and face that there is no proof of it?
That said, I have a reference to a factory loaded auxiliary (what would commonly be called "Special Purpose") cartridge for .44 Russian that had a hollow-point bullet, combined with being pre-fragmented!
I have had a copy of the "U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns" (c) 1979, by Charles R. Suydam. I do not recall ever seeing any ammunition or references to, any revolver cartridge being factory loaded with hollow-point bullets prior to the 1930s except this one. There is no common revolver cartridge of any caliber, shown in the book that I can find that had a hollow-point bullet before 1900!
Now, the reference: On page 214 is pictured and described one hollow-point loaded .44 Russian cartridge, manufacturer unknown, no headstamp. The caption indicates it was loaded with an "Anderson divided bullet" which was divided with 3 vertical cuts combined with a hollow-point. This would seem to be similar to modern pre-fragmented .22 LR ammunition, except for the hollow-point(?)" It is referred to as a "riot" cartridge. Before 1900 it would be quite uncommon to find any revolver cartridge loaded with anything other than either a round-nosed or flat-pointed bullet!
I do not ever recall anyone else ever mentioning having a copy of Mr. Suydam's book! All remarks are paraphrased, not directly copied from the book.
If you are interested in an excellent cartridge reference book this is available from Amazon, $100 hardback, $25 paper:
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Last edited by Alk8944; 08-19-2022 at 01:21 AM.
Reason: To complete
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08-19-2022, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur
I have actually never seen "any" Express rounds in any caliber in hand. That's how hard they are to find.
The first rounds that were compatible with pistols were the following":
32-20 WCF, 38-40 WCF & 44-40 WCF Circa: 1873
Colt chambered all of these calibers in their pistols. Smith and Wesson also did during the black powder ERA.
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You are a bit early on your Colt dates.
Colt began offering the SAA in 44/40 in 1878.
The 38/40 (introduced by Win 1874) was not offered in the SAA till 1884.
The 32/20 (introduced by Win 1882) was not offered in the SAA till 1884.
In S&W:
The 32/20 appears in the K frame in 1899. Maybe there is a special order NM#3 out there that is earlier.
The 38/40 appears in the #3 Models in 1900.
The 44/40 appears in the #3 Models in 1885.
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08-19-2022, 10:48 AM
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This thread on the "EX" cartridges caught my eye. I knew I had seen it on a cartridge but didn't know it referred to the type of projectile.
I got to scrounging around in my piles and found this Winchester 50-110-EX cartridge.
According to Giles and Shuey the 50-110 was catalogued from 1887-1940.
I realize this isn't a .44 Russian or even a pistol cartridge, but I thought I'd share anyhow.
Any idea based on the headstamp and bullet style as to the age?
Edit: The headstamp W.R.A. Co. was discontinued in 1928 but inventory was used until depleted.
Last edited by 444 Magnum; 08-19-2022 at 12:40 PM.
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08-19-2022, 02:12 PM
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"Incoming"!
Wow,
I've never actually seen such distortion of my written posts. Thank Goodness it's all in writing if someone was to actually read my posts? Try starting from my original posts and then witness the distortion by other members leading my point astray?
I started this post to introduce the fact that there were Hollow points available during the black powder Era for the 44 Russian cartridge. I have clearly established that fact.
At some point my post was "stretched" into "Cartridge Companies making rounds" which I support but is not proven since no surviving cartridges are known to exist. That of course started an avalanche of negativity. I also mentioned "NOTHING" about Colt manufactured dates only that the Express "CARTRIDGES" were available during that time frame in 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40. Beginning in 1873. With absolutely no mention of production dates but that Colt and Smith & Wesson manufactured pistols in these calibers.
Let's try to get back to my original point. "Express Rounds" or Hollow points were actually available for Pistols during the Black powder Era that included the 44 Russian. That was my point and those early reloading tools that date to that early period and include the 44 Russian caliber pistols prove that they were also available for the 44 Russian. "That was my sole point" My point was and is that " THE 44 RUSSIAN WAS AVAILABLE IN HOLLOW POINT DURING THE BLACK POWDER ERA..."PERIOD". that naturally has ballooned into a barrage of distortion. Absolutely amazing.
What I was hoping is that cartridge collectors would chime in and post some of their rare cartridges.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-19-2022 at 02:36 PM.
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08-19-2022, 02:46 PM
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Negativity??
On this forum??
I had no clue
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08-19-2022, 03:56 PM
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The "Big 50"
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjbrdn
This thread on the "EX" cartridges caught my eye. I knew I had seen it on a cartridge but didn't know it referred to the type of projectile.
I got to scrounging around in my piles and found this Winchester 50-110-EX cartridge.
According to Giles and Shuey the 50-110 was catalogued from 1887-1940.
I realize this isn't a .44 Russian or even a pistol cartridge, but I thought I'd share anyhow.
Any idea based on the headstamp and bullet style as to the age?
Edit: The headstamp W.R.A. Co. was discontinued in 1928 but inventory was used until depleted.
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Very nice early "Express" 50....These were known as part of the family of: "The Big 50" in the early days. Originated in the Sharps, Kentucky style single shot rifle in about 1870 and introduced in the Winchester repeating rifle in 1886ish. Smaller calibers I believe were available earlier. Like the 44WCF. Likely around 1876 and would have been available for the "COLT FRONTIER SIX SHOOTER" in 1878. That includes the 78 double action.
That X on the copper insert might help you to date this cartridge. The copper insert was designed to help expand the hollow point bullet upon impact. The posted photo is of a box of 50-95 EX. Winchester cartridges. Close to what you have. That's the closest I can get. Sorry but this stuff is very hard to find.
The box of 50-110 would have looked about identical. Express rounds were very popular in the large high volume black powder rifles of that era and were chambered in over 16 calibers including those that were manufactured on a pistol platform during the same time frame. Keep in mind that those are proven listings. The Express round was likely available in many more calibers. The listings are lost to history or unknown at this point. So therefore unproven. However, like I have been trying to get across on this thread, reloading tools were obviously available for all calibers at that time for the Express bullet so in my opinion the simple addition of a hollow point bullet would be a simple process for cartridge companies at a client's request.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-19-2022 at 04:11 PM.
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08-19-2022, 07:36 PM
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Murph,
I like the idea of a thread showing vintage and antique ammunition. I have boxes and shelves full of it. Like you said previously, most of it is soft point bullets. I do have some .219 zipper boxes in hollow point and mushroom bullet. But they are far from the direction of the original thread.
As I collected Winchester and Marlin rifles, I also started collecting vintage ammo. I picked up ammo to match the caliber of rifles and pistols that I have and just kept going.
Here is a sampling of some "not so common" boxes; i.e. you want find these at Bass Pro.
For the military/match shooters.
First, the Winchester Wimbledon Cup 30 Gov't 06 box with beautiful graphics. The ammo is nice also with Kopperklad bullets and nickel like cases-not sure what the metal is.
This is a Remington UMC match grade .30-06 box.
This is one of ten boxes that I have of some P.O. Ackley developed match grade cartridges in 300 Ackley Magnum. Ackley, IIRC, was trying to get the military to adopt this round in the early 1960's. Around the same time or slightly before the 300 Win Mag was developed. Weatherby had already developed his 300 magnum in 1944
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08-20-2022, 01:54 PM
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Id for "Big 50"
Here is more reference for your "Big 50".
The "Blue label" vs the "Green Label"... The Green label finds black powder loads. The Blue label cartridge box was the transition to Smokeless. Early boxes were still Black powder as seen in photo 1.
Later boxes were Smokeless powder. An unopened box sells for upwards of $2000 and that was 4 years ago. It's the pistol rounds that you'd have to mortgage your house for. $5-$10k.
That would represent the 32-20,38-40, & 44-40 Rifle/Pistol boxes Any dedicated pistols rounds with "Express" on the box would go for a small fortune I'm sure.
I'd sure like to see one.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-20-2022 at 01:58 PM.
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08-21-2022, 09:52 PM
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44WCF “Express”
I finally have a connection inside the cartridge collectors club. Sent me this photo of an early what he claims is a factory loaded 44 WCF hollow point black powder round. I asked him if the head is marked or unmarked. Waiting.
The photo does show an early balloon head case and the lead bullet cavity is the early narrow channel. It looks early to me, and the bullet looks like it’s been banged up a bit. He’s only seen loose Express rounds no boxes, but he is asking around so maybe something will turn up.
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-22-2022 at 12:37 AM.
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08-22-2022, 03:00 PM
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Cartridge Convention
Photo of just one table at the Saint Louis International Cartridge Convention show says it all about why you can’t find antique ammo. All the rare stuff is in collections. 230 tables basically like this one. I might have to do a road trip!
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-22-2022 at 03:05 PM.
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08-22-2022, 11:40 PM
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Express Timeline
I've completed my research on the "Express Cartridge" of the black powder Era. The rest is going to have to come from Cartridge collectors and research on any boxes that have survived. If any.
The first Express Cartridge was chambered in the Single Shot large caliber rifles of the early 1870's.
The first repeater that I can confirm was actually the Winchester 1876 model that chambered all of the 45 caliber express rounds and the 50-95 Express.
The earliest reloading tools dated to the same time during 1876 found available with the Ballard rifle tools and early Winchester reloading tools.
Literally all of the reloading tools of that Era offered the Express or Hollow point round as an option. See photo of typical insert found with the single cavity tool for "any caliber". This was the typical early tool that I could confirm from multiple manufacturers.
I have no idea what the Winchester insert looks like. Or the Ideal No. 6 tool insert. Both were available in basically all calibers.
Ideal lists 52 calibers available in the Express tool circa 1891. That includes "ALL PISTOL CALIBERS"
Murph
Last edited by BMur; 08-22-2022 at 11:52 PM.
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