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S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


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  #1  
Old 10-01-2022, 11:17 PM
iby iby is online now
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Default 44 Russian/ 44 Special question

If you had a New Model 3 with a late long frame/cylinder, would a 44 Special chamber in it?
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Old 10-01-2022, 11:56 PM
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Well, the way to find out is to take a .44 S & W Special round and see if it chambers. The pressure of a .44 Special round will be greater than that of a .44 Russian and so it might not be safe to fire a .44 Special in a New Model No 3.

The question is, were any New Model No 3 revolvers ever chambered in .44 Special? That round came out in 1907 and the New Model No 3 was shipped up until 1912. My guess is that all New Model No 3 revolvers were assembled prior to 1907 and none were chambered in this round. This is a guess and I could be wrong.
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Old 10-02-2022, 02:08 AM
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Default Case stop

Smith & Wesson revolver chambers were milled with a case stop. This forum calls a step. That milled case stop would prevent the longer 44 Special from chambering. The longer case would impact the case stop preventing it from chambering all the way into the 44 Russian chamber. Just like the 38 special chamber prevents the chambering of a 357 Mag and the 44 Special chamber prevents the chambering of a 44 Mag.
I don’t think the new model 3 was ever designed for smokeless powder. It is also listed as a black powder only platform in early target shooter manuals. That is the reason it was replaced with the early DA 44 special triple lock target DA models that were designed for use with smokeless powder.

The 44 Special was introduced as a smokeless load as mentioned in 1907. The 44 Special is a more powerful cartridge. Introducing a more powerful smokeless load to an original black powder gun would be a bad idea in my opinion.

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Last edited by BMur; 10-02-2022 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 10-02-2022, 02:47 AM
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The longer cylinder was 1 and 9/16 inches vs 1 7/16. Or in millimeters 39.69mm vs. 36.51mm. A 44 Russian in overall length is 36mm and the 44 special is 41mm in overall length. The SAAMI maximum pressure for a Russian is 14,500 and 15,500 for the special. The 44 special will fit in the cylinder I just don’t know if it will close properly…..
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Old 10-02-2022, 04:52 AM
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So I just had to try 44sp in my gun and found that 44sp will fit in three chambers sigh……the steps in the other three prevent the 44sp from seating fully….very strange.


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Old 10-02-2022, 08:04 AM
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So I just had to try 44sp in my gun and found that 44sp will fit in three chambers sigh……the steps in the other three prevent the 44sp from seating fully….very strange.


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Then this revolver is likely chambered in .44 Russian, the most common caliber in the New Model No 3. As mentioned, the New Model No 3 is a black powder ONLY firearm. Having said that, there’s no reason why .44 S & W Special can’t be loaded with black powder, like any straight walled case.
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Old 10-02-2022, 10:15 AM
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I would just get 44 Russian brass and reload that. It's common and available brand new.
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Old 10-02-2022, 12:00 PM
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I don't have any long cylinder top breaks that are in .44 Russian. Mine are in .44WCF. .44WCF has more pressure than a .44 Special. If I had a long cylinder .44 Russian (that wasn't a high condition gun), I would ream it to take .44 Special just for the options.
While not recommended due to the different pressure spike curves between black and smokeless, I do shoot mine occasionally with light cowbow action loads with Trailboss. I use GOEX cartridge powder for black powder loads.
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Old 10-02-2022, 12:26 PM
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Moralem
I think you have the right idea.
Is your cylinder the long style?
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Old 10-02-2022, 01:02 PM
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Default 44 Special chambers?

If a 44 Special is chambering in the 44 Russian cylinder? The cylinder has been altered.

"Very common" with antique firearms due to excessive cleaning, or milling out rust to such an extent that they open the chamber up too much. Often also in an attempt to change the caliber to a more powerful cartridge.

Another factor that is proven is the availability of cartridges during that early time period. If the owner couldn't find 44 Russian rounds they would take the gun to a smith and have the chambers opened up to chamber a more common round. Like the 44 Winchester. That alteration is extremely common.

That's the way it was back then. People made things work. Finding the correct and designed ammo was sometimes impossible. The claim that the 44 Winchester will not fit into a 44 Russian chamber due to cylinder length is incorrect. Once milled out A simple alteration of bullet seating depth will allow the chambering of the 44 Winchester in an original 44 Russian cylinder. It's called "Hand loading" which was also extremely common during that time frame. Reloading tools were as common as a hammer or ax.

Some collectors resent this type of alteration, but I see it as historically significant since it was period performed for a reason.

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Old 10-02-2022, 01:27 PM
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My thoughts, I am against boring cylinders out of any antique revolver. I really don’t see the need to ruin a cylinder just to be able to chamber a longer cartridge. The 44 S&W (Russian) is one of the most accurate cartridges ever developed and has enough stopping power at normal shooting distances to be a dependable personal protection round. Lengthening the chamber to allow for a longer case and increased powder capacity could also ruin accuracy. A person can always experiment with lighter projectiles loaded into the Russian case (most loadings I’ve encountered are with 200gr or 210gr weight projectiles) if he wants to increase velocity but that usually means a drop off in energy. It also ruins originality of the weapon (as it left the factory) even if it is one with no original finish and loose mechanics. Worse case is it is somewhat dangerous.

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
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Old 10-02-2022, 04:30 PM
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Probably the major reason 44 Russian is popular today is its low recoil. It is quite popular among the cowboy action types for that very reason, especially single action and lever action carbine matches. I have shot black powder 44 Russian through my 24-3 and find it accurate, once I did enough testing on my own I never shoot smokeless through any of my old Smith and Wessons chambered for 44 Russian...the smoke and roar of black powder beats smokeless every time.
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Old 10-03-2022, 08:32 PM
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Would just get 44 Russian brass and Just reload it.
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Old 10-03-2022, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iby View Post
Moralem
I think you have the right idea.
Is your cylinder the long style?
I don’t think my cylinder is the long style. I think 3 chambers had their steps worn down that it allows a 44sp to chamber in those three. I only shoot .44 Russian through the gun. Unfortunately it is smokeless but loaded to cowboy action levels of 650fps.
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Old 10-04-2022, 09:02 AM
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If you get 44 Russian cases you should get dies as well , I don’t believe there is enough adjustment in 44 mag/44spec dies
Something to think about anyway
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Old 10-04-2022, 11:22 AM
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If you get 44 Russian cases you should get dies as well , I don’t believe there is enough adjustment in 44 mag/44spec dies
Something to think about anyway
The 44 Mag / 44 Special dies work fine on 44 Russian. Full length resizing because the case is shorter than either. I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die for 44 Special / Mag on the 44 Russian too. Works perfectly.

The 44 Russian is a pretty snappy round. Very similar to a 44 Special in my usage.
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Old 10-04-2022, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
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Would just get 44 Russian brass and Just reload it.
Years ago I hand loaded some .44 Russian rounds using once fired Fiochi brass. I didn’t have dies but used my little Lee Loader hand tool. It worked fine.
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Old 10-05-2022, 09:36 AM
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Model19man , what brand of dies are you using for 44 Russian ?
My Hornady set is almost maxed out crimping 44 specials
A fellow shooter I know had to buy 44 Russian dies to shoot his antique S&W
Be good to know for the future
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Old 10-05-2022, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamloops67 View Post
Model19man , what brand of dies are you using for 44 Russian ?
My Hornady set is almost maxed out crimping 44 specials
A fellow shooter I know had to buy 44 Russian dies to shoot his antique S&W
Be good to know for the future
I am using this set plus the Lee 44 Mag / Special / Russian Factory Crimp Die.



Lee Carbide 3 Die Set for 44 Special / 44 Rem Magnum 90516 | eBay
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Old 10-05-2022, 06:22 PM
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Crimp die goes in the fourth hole:


90863 Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die for 44 Special, 44 Remington Magnum, Russian 734307908638 | eBay
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Old 10-05-2022, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moralem View Post
I don’t think my cylinder is the long style. I think 3 chambers had their steps worn down that it allows a 44sp to chamber in those three. I only shoot .44 Russian through the gun. Unfortunately it is smokeless but loaded to cowboy action levels of 650fps.
Unless you have a special loading length for those 44 Special rounds, not only will they not load in the cylinders of a 44 Russian, but if the cylinder was altered, they would stick out the end of the cylinder. Short cylinders are 1.4375", while a standard 44 Special round is around 1.64 in the chamber (OAL 1.7"). I would like to know how worn your revolver is? It would be quite unusual that some cylinders are too tight and some are not? A heavily used gun could have chamber erosion. I would check this gun out very carefully before you shoot either BP or smokeless.

Where to start on reloading 44 Russian with smokeless . . . perhaps some actual data would be good for some to review.

44 Russian BP pressures for 200g LRN are in the neighborhood of 8000psi - 9000psi. Trail Boss loadings for 200g LRN shows 3g at 650fps resulting in 7900psi. 650fps is plenty fast enough to go all the way through a paper target and this load shoots quite accurately.

Loadings for 44 Special can be similar pressure when reloading. SAAMI maximum working pressures for 44 Special are 15,500psi, obviously too high for a 44 DA, but using 3.5g of Clays run at 750fps and pressures of 7,800psi. I have shot 44 DAs in 44 Russian and 44-40 DA Frontiers at similars pressures for about 30 years off and on. Great fun, cleaning was a breeze, velocities are around 700fps. Less felt recoil than BP. Would I do it again, absolutely.

You can find smokeless loadings for both 44 Special and 44 Russian that have pressures lower than BP, do your research, then shoot if you want. Could your gun break? After 130 years of untold atrocities committed to your gun, a spring or part can certainly break, not because of smokeless powder, but rather age and/or prior abuse. I have been lucky and only broke one part in a 44 DA, the trigger return spring. Good luck.
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Old 10-06-2022, 12:12 PM
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Somewhere over the years I have read either in the S&W history books or in factory letters all saying the same thing; if you own a top break gun put it in a showcase or in your gun vault. DO NOT SHOOT THESE GUNS! Because of their age and changes in ammo from black powder to smokeless don`t risk having the top strap blow up in your face. I have 2 mint Model 3`s and they are both wrapped in NOXRUST and nestled in my vault. If I feel the need I shoot my 2.5 inch 629 Performance Center.
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Old 10-06-2022, 01:22 PM
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In the ten years that I have been buying antique Smith & Wessons I have shot every one of them. They have all been shot with both commercially available ammo, and my appropriate hand loads none have yet to suffer any ill effects. This includes 22 short CB, 32 S&W, 32 RF, 38 S&W, 44 S&W Russian. None of mine are what you would call mint, but all are mechanically in good to great shape. Now if they were absolutely mint I probably wouldn't shoot them. Can things break yes, but I doubt seriously that shooting smokeless ammo that is available will be the cause. Springs might break, but that will simply be from the age and wear of the metal. Ammo companies know full well what someone ordering 32S&W, 38 S&W and 44 S&W Russian are going to be shooting them in, and load them accordingly.
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Old 10-06-2022, 02:26 PM
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”Somewhere over the years I have read either in the S&W history books or in factory letters all saying the same thing; if you own a top break gun put it in a showcase or in your gun vault. DO NOT SHOOT THESE GUNS! Because of their age and changes in ammo from black powder to smokeless don`t risk having the top strap blow up in your face. I have 2 mint Model 3`s and they are both wrapped in NOXRUST and nestled in my vault. If I feel the need I shoot my 2.5 inch 629 Performance Center”.

If someone has the inclination to fire one of these old guns, use common sense and the ammunition that was intended to be used in them, black powder. I doubt anything catastrophic will occur as long as the responsible, knowledgeable shooter will examine the weapon and determine if it can be fired safely. If the shooter doesn’t have the experience or knowledge to determine if it is safe, ask someone who is. However a number of shops will automatically tell you NO, do not shoot, because they are afraid of being sued.

Every firearm I own is antique and I shoot every firearm I own.
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Old 10-06-2022, 03:10 PM
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I remember posts here by a guy who chambered his "shooter grade" .44 Russians for .44 Special for ready availably of brass.
Of course hardly anything is readily available now.
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Old 10-21-2022, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamloops67 View Post
Model19man , what brand of dies are you using for 44 Russian ?
My Hornady set is almost maxed out crimping 44 specials
A fellow shooter I know had to buy 44 Russian dies to shoot his antique S&W
Be good to know for the future
Rcbs make a cowboy die set that can be used for 44 spl and 44 russian. Crimp and everything works. They have a 45 colt/45 schofield die as well, i load 45 colt, schofield and cowboy special with it.
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