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Old 09-10-2007, 07:14 AM
Win38-55 Win38-55 is offline
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I am interested in getting an idea of the correlation between the New Model #3 serial numbers and their shipping dates. I figured I'd start a chart that each person who has lettered their New Model #3 from Roy Jinks could contribute to. Just copy the latest chart from the previous message and insert your serial number and shipping date. Let's keep the chart ranked by serial numbers in ascending order (early serial numbers at the top, later ones further down). Here's my contribution for starters:

Serial #...Shipped
8823 ...... March 9, 1880
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:14 AM
Win38-55 Win38-55 is offline
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I am interested in getting an idea of the correlation between the New Model #3 serial numbers and their shipping dates. I figured I'd start a chart that each person who has lettered their New Model #3 from Roy Jinks could contribute to. Just copy the latest chart from the previous message and insert your serial number and shipping date. Let's keep the chart ranked by serial numbers in ascending order (early serial numbers at the top, later ones further down). Here's my contribution for starters:

Serial #...Shipped
8823 ...... March 9, 1880
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Win38-55:
I am interested in getting an idea of the correlation between the New Model #3 serial numbers and their shipping dates. I figured I'd start a chart that each person who has lettered their New Model #3 from Roy Jinks could contribute to. Just copy the latest chart from the previous message and insert your serial number and shipping date. Let's keep the chart ranked by serial numbers in ascending order (early serial numbers at the top, later ones further down). Here's my contribution for starters:

Serial #...Shipped
8823 ...... March 9, 1880
2773..........9/1/1879

6740 ..........3/7/1882

6763 ...........3/15/82

18099...........11/10/1883

28501 ..........8/12/1896

31779 ..........8/7/1899

52 Frontier 44/40 5/13/1891

2001 Target ....... 3/30/1893

3384 Target..........5/11/1899
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:33 AM
Buffalo Nichols Buffalo Nichols is offline
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I would like to expand this to include other data such as caliber, bbl length, sights, finish, grips, shipped to. If you interested let me know or send the info directly to mfaires@allcitiesent.com.

Here is what I have for the existing list

6561 9 August 1881
24672 11 August 1904
29035 4 September 1893
So much for the theory that the lowest number left first. Both 24672 and 29035 shipped overseas.

981 Frontier 44/40 11 Dec 1893
2100 Target letter pending probabaly late 1893
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:28 AM
Win38-55 Win38-55 is offline
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Here's an updated list so far, not including the Frontiers and the targest, which seem to have serial number ranges of their own? If you have new data to add, qoute this message and insert your serial numbers at the right location:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904
28501...... Aug. 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899

New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
3384 ...... May 11, 1899

New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:31 AM
Buffalo Nichols Buffalo Nichols is offline
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That is correct the 32-44 and 38-44 targets are numbered in their own sequence as are the 44-40 and 38-40 and the rimfires. I would still like to see all models included in the list.
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:40 AM
Buffalo Nichols Buffalo Nichols is offline
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I should have commented that I have some target sighted guns in the normal serial number sequence, these are in 44 Russian and 45 Schofield
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:52 AM
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Okay, I've modified the list to include the Target type and the Frontier type. Also added an extra column for other info, such as caliber and type. If you have new data to add, quote this message and insert your serial numbers at the right location:
Quote:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904
28501...... Aug. 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899

New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
3384 ...... May 11, 1899

New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:54 AM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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Well - I'm not much of a mathematician, but I would say that this data

Serial #...Shipped
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904
28501...... Aug. 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899

looks pretty good. All those guns were shipped in about a 25 year period.

That is about all you can say about them !

Regards, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:04 AM
Win38-55 Win38-55 is offline
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Data that does not fit our expectations is better than no data at all. To make matters worse, I've read that all the frames for the New Model #3's were made and serialized prior to 1898, qualifying all of them for antique status. Canada recognizes all New Model #3's as antiques, provided they are in obsolete calibers, such as the 44 Russian.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:26 AM
Buffalo Nichols Buffalo Nichols is offline
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Interesting that Canadian law excludes 44R from modern calibers, but 44 Russian is currently commercially produced by at least 4 manufacturers as evidenced by the Midway web site. Quick buy the gun before the politicians find out.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:46 AM
Win38-55 Win38-55 is offline
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I think the Canadian politicians have the right idea by ruling that antique pistols are not a firearm. However, their restrictions by caliber are not necessary, as any caliber can have ammo made for it (I roll my own). It is not the caliber that keeps the gangs on the streets from using antique pistols, it is the rarity of the handguns themselves that justifies the antique designation. They are simply too hard to find and too expensive to attract the interest of the average bad guy. Modern semi-auto pistols are much more attractive to the average gang member. The vast majority of people are completely unaware of antique handguns and wouldn't even know where to find one if they wanted to. I'd like to see all pistols and rifles made before 1898 ruled as antique here in Canada. Forget about caliber designations. These old classics never will be an attraction to the drug-dealing rapper.
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Old 09-10-2007, 12:20 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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Quote:
Data that does not fit our expectations is better than no data at all.
Given all the discussions, and information, that have been posted on this site, as well as others,
run it by me one more time as to exactly what these expectations were .

Thanks in advance, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-10-2007, 01:27 PM
2152hq 2152hq is offline
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I added ser#35102 shipped in very late 1915.

Quote:
Originally posted by Win38-55:
Okay, I've modified the list to include the Target type and the Frontier type. Also added an extra column for other info, such as caliber and type. If you have new data to add, quote this message and insert your serial numbers at the right location:
Quote:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904
28501...... Aug. 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899
35102...... Dec. 28, 1915 ... 44 Russian, 5"Bbl, TgtSites, Non-rebounding Hmr, Nickel.

New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
3384 ...... May 11, 1899

New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893
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Old 09-10-2007, 02:48 PM
Buffalo Nichols Buffalo Nichols is offline
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Mike,
I don't know you and I know you are a regular contributer to the forum. Let me say this we are sharing information on a SW model we have a mutual interest in. With all due respect, why do you care? If you choose not to participate in this particular exchange of information then don't, but please do not question our right to share information with another member of this board. If you have reason to believe this exchange is somehow detremental to one or all us this please advise as to your concern.
No offense intended or taken.
Buffalo Nichols
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikepriwer:
Quote:
Data that does not fit our expectations is better than no data at all.
Given all the discussions, and information, that have been posted on this site, as well as others,
run it by me one more time as to exactly what these expectations were .

Thanks in advance, Mike Priwer
I didn't have any, but I am interested in data, probably why I started school when I was 6 years old and am still going to school at the age of 53.

I do notice, however, that there does appear to be a better correlation between serial number and shipping dates for the serial numbers less than 8,000. I wouldn't be surprised if other correlations emerged with a larger sample. For example, there may be runs of serial numbers that do correspond to a trend in shipping dates.

So far, the Schofields seem to be better correlated.

Bottom Line: I find data like this interesting.
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Old 09-10-2007, 04:13 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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My point is, and this has been discussed numerous times, that if you try to look
for close correlations between serial numbers and shipping dates, then you do
not understand the manufacturing process.

The manufacturing process was based on batch-production of frames, as well as
other parts, in anticipation of eventual orders for completed guns. No one is
quite sure of the size of these batches, but the best estimates are in the
vicinity of 100 to 500 frames, and sometimes more. There is evidence that they
were sometimes about 1000.

At some point in the manufacturing cycle, when the frames were sufficiently
completed to allow serial numbering, they were serial numbered in these large
batches. The serial-numbering machine was self-incrementing, but sometimes it
was not started at the right serial number, for a particular frame. If it was
set too early, then duplicate serial numbers would result, and there are
numerous examples of these in the records. If it was set too late, then a gap
appears in the records. Sometimes this gap was noticed later, and was filled.

As the frames were serial numbered, they were placed into large bins, or boxes,
or barrels. Because of this prodedure, the first in were the last out. And,
sometimes, the bins or boxes or barrels were not completely emptied before
another batch of frames was dumped on top of them. And, sometimes , a box of frames
would get misplaced, only to be found several years later, and used at that time.

As part of the factories scheduling, a sizeable number of guns were always being
made up, and placed into inventory, in a large holding area. There seems to have
been no plan as to first-in, first-out. As collectors, the only date available
to us is the shipping date, not the manufacturing date. So, here again is another
opportunity for the serial number to be completely irrelevant to the shipping
date. I have owned identical consecutively-serial-numbered 1905's, shipped 8 years apart.

Over long periods of time, lower-serial-numbers are shipped before higher-serial-
numbers. But this is only over long periods of time, like several years. But over
shorter periods, like months or even one or two years, the order is likely to
be anything.

It is also well-known that Colt in particular, and quite possibly S&W on occasion,
would reverse the order of the serial-numbers being shipped. Colt did this to
give the illusion that their production was higher than it actually was. On
occasion, S&W may have also done this.

So, in answer to this question: "With all due respect, why do you care? "
I care a lot. What I care about most is that collectors understand what they are
doing. I care enough to learn what the production process was all about, so
that I don't go off on illogical tangents. I care enough to take the time, over
and over, to help people to understand these things. I care because I don't like
to see mis-leading conclusions being drawn from mis-leading data. Some collectors
will read this mis-leading data, and think there is something important there.

That is what I care about.

Later, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-10-2007, 04:47 PM
Win38-55 Win38-55 is offline
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That sounds similar to Winchester's production practices, although their serial numbers, over the long range, do correlate rather well with dates.

I don't see how this real data is misleading. You can already see that serial number progression does not necessarily correlate with date progression. I've never seen a chart of this data. Perhaps Roy Jinks has been compiling a searcheable data chart, but I don't have access to that. I like to have data. A person who has data has more knowledge than a person who does not. I don't think this is a question of either/or .... either a person relies on urban stories about what S&W's manufacturing practices were but has zero data to back it up; or a person has lots of data but no concept of what S&W's manufacturing practices were (although the latter person could certainly infer what the practices were by looking at the data). Rather than an either/or situation, both data and historical accounts of what went on are important.

The chart already gives info that is consistent with your conjecture of what S&W's manufacturing processes were. If we could get at least a hundred data points here, we'd have a very interesting piece of information. It won't help the new fellow trying to date his gun, but it is useful for other things, at least to flesh out an idea of S&W's manufacturing processes and what years had more orders than other years, etc.
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:12 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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Kirk

Roy doesn't do these kind of studies. The reason he doesn't is that he knows
that the guns were not built, or shipped, in serial number order.

I think you are not being objective with yourself. I think that the reason you
want to look at this data is to uncover some relationship between the shipping
date and the serial number. Maybe it's enjoyable for you to do this. But the
reality is that there is no relationship, other that they obvious long long term
connection.

I argue that it is a misleading effort - just by virture of the fact that you are
doing it, and presenting it to others. Its entirely possible that some short
sequence will be in perfect correlation. But that would be entirely coincidental.
It is not a cause and effect relationship, but I suspect that if you came across
such a sequence, you would think that it was important, or at the very least,
interesting.

The relationship between serial numbers and shipping dates is random, by definition
of the production practice. Its misleading to look for meaning in random data.

Later, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:30 PM
Buffalo Nichols Buffalo Nichols is offline
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Why are you so defensive, is there something only a few are allowed to see, are we not allowed to share data and let the assumptions fall where they may. That is why I ask for more than the serial number and the ship date. Is there a problem with knowing finish, barrel length, grip style, where shipped to and caliber? Is there something to hide? From such disassociated data many discoviries have been made or at least data is gathered as a basis for further research to be developed
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Buffalo Nichols:
Why are you so defensive, is there something only a few are allowed to see, are we not allowed to share data and let the assumptions fall where they may. That is why I ask for more than the serial number and the ship date. Is there a problem with knowing finish, barrel length, grip style, where shipped to and caliber? Is there something to hide? From such disassociated data many discoviries have been made or at least data is gathered as a basis for further research to be developed
Why are you??? Mike
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:58 PM
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KKG,
I am not sure your intention, are you scouraging me or mike priwer? Do you have a dog in this hunt? Do you wish to contribute? I have no wish to disparge anyone from this forum nor discourage any free disperal of information. I collect NM#3's because I think they are the best single action SW ever produced. I find the production data in all aspects facinating.
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:39 PM
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Mike, I would have thought that you should be able to tell from the little bit of data that has already been posted that there is not much of a relationship between serial numbers and shipping dates. I think we can all see that. We are not babes in arms that need to be protected from real data in case we get mislead.

The shipping dates are not completely random. For example, it is doubtful that serial numbers 1 through 5 weren't shipped until 1912. If you think a data base of serial numbers and shipping dates is worthless, then I must confess that I am mystified. I use searchable databases on a daily basis and they really speed up the acquisition of knowledge. What we have on this thread is a very tiny sampling that we can search visually in a few seconds. I think it would be a worthy effort for someone to compile a huge searchable data base. I would be surprised if Roy Jinks is not beginning to do that. Everytime someone sends in a request for a letter, it would make good sense to record the serial number and the found data in a computer file. Five years later, after the pistol has changed hands and the new owner writes in for a letter, the whole search doesn't have to start from scratch all over again. The serial number is simply typed in and up comes all the data, including scans of old records, etc.

Mike, are you suggesting that average folk should not compile serial numbers and shipping dates and descriptions, or that this information should not be available for the public to see. I get suspicious when I hear stuff like that. Why do you not want the public to have this kind of information. Fearing that the poor, deluded public might be misled just does not wash. I collect old Winchesters as well and when I encounter a Winchester collector who doesn't want me to know stuff like serial numbers, shipping dates, factory info, etc. I get real suspicious. I, and a friend of mine, have been burned in some Winchester deals when we first started out because the sellers (who were very serious collectors themselves) knew we were new collectors. He could mislead me and overcharge me and pass off guns that did not letter to me, just so long as I didn't find out the real data. Because of having been burned bad in the past, when you don't want people to know the factory info on these old guns, I get big red flags, Mike.
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Old 09-11-2007, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881..44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl, smooth wood grips
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904...44 Russian, blued, 6.5"bbl, checkered wood grips, Japan
28501...... August 12, 1896

29035...... Sept. 4, 189345 Schofield, blued 6.5" bbl, hard rubber grips, target sights, England

31779...... Aug. 7, 1899
35102...... Dec. 28, 1915 ... 44 Russian, 5"Bbl, TgtSites, Non-rebounding Hmr, Nickel.
35602.......Ltr pending ...44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl. target sights, cut for shoulder stock

New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
2100 ...... Ltr Pending, 38-44
3384 ...... May 11, 1899

New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893 5"bbl, blued, hard rubber grips
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:16 AM
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Buffalo Nichols, that Schofield you entered here has got me curious. The serial number looks to be too high to have been numbered in the Schofield series, but since it letters as a Schofield, were some Schofields numbered in the NM #3 serial series?
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:11 AM
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Kirk,
The one I listed is a New Model #3 that is chambered in 45 Schofield, not a Schofield model. There is another pictured in the Neal & Jinks book "S&W 1857 to 1945" on page 182, mine is configured the same way except for the front sight.You will note the serial numbers are very close. Sorry for the confusion. And by the way thank you for starting and defending this thread.
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:52 AM
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By gum, I'm learning more all the time. I didn't realize that the New Model #3 was also chambered in the 45 Schofield, but then again, it makes perfect sense to put that chambering in the very fine New Model #3. Here's the latest chart then:

New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881 .... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl, smooth wood grips
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904 ... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5"bbl, checkered wood grips, Japan
28501...... August 12, 1896

29035...... Sept. 4, 1893 ... 45 Schofield, blued 6.5" bbl, hard rubber grips, target sights, England

31779...... Aug. 7, 1899
35102...... Dec. 28, 1915 ... 44 Russian, 5"Bbl, TgtSites, Non-rebounding Hmr, Nickel.
35602.......Ltr pending ...... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl. target sights, cut for shoulder stock

New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
2100 ...... Ltr Pending ..... 38-44
3384 ...... May 11, 1899

New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893 .... 5"bbl, blued, hard rubber grips
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Old 09-11-2007, 11:21 AM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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Its clear, to me, that some of you are fascinated with the relationship between serial
numbers and shipping dates. Otherwise, this whole discussion would not have started.

In a proper research environment, one would have proposed an idea, developed it into a
hypothesis, and then tested it by gathering unbiased data, and in some manner or other,
evaluate that data vis-a-vis the hypothesis. In this case, it has been done backwards.

I explained the manufacturing process, and all its implications. From that explanation, it
should be expected that the guns would not be in serial number order. The next step would
be to examine the data, to see if, in fact, that is so. And, of course, the data bears
that out. The data is not in serial number/date order because the guns were not made that
way. But - this was foregone conclusion.

There is nothing wrong with gathering data, but you are not doing it in a constructive way.
You have focused on the serial-number shipping-date relationship, when in fact there is none.
This is not the right thing to do.

The data would be far more interesting, and informative, if you gathered information about
the guns themselves. You should first identify what serial number series you are interested
in. Then, in that series, you should gather things like:

Barrel length, Finish, Caliber, Sight configuration, where shipped, anything special,
and then lastly, way out on the end of the record, the shipping date.

In this manner, the data can be used to learn things about the guns that are not in the
factory records. For example, with enough data, you could answer the question about
how many 4" barrels were made. Records like this were not kept, but are of keen interest
to collectors when it comes to thinking about the value of the gun. Or, you might be able
to make inferences about how many guns (in that series) were finished in nickel.

Joe Miller, on his S&WCA site, has gathered data like this for a number of S&W's. Its a
very useful datasbase for learning those things that are not in the factory records.

The thing about data is that, by virtue of how it is gathered, and how it is presented,
an implication of importance is thereby attached. In the case of this data, it has been
gathered and presented in a serial-number shipping date context. There is no importance
or significance to that relationship. The data is good and interesting as it relates to
survivors, but it is not good or interesting vis-a-vis shipping dates and serial numbers.

Later, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-11-2007, 11:32 AM
Buffalo Nichols Buffalo Nichols is offline
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According to all of the source books I have the NM#3 was offered in the following calibers.
32 S&W, 32-44 S&W, 320 S&W Revolving Rifle, 38 S&W, 38-40 Winchester, 38-44 S&W, 41 S&W, 44 Rim Fire Henry, 44 S&W American, 44 S&W Russian, 44-40 Winchester, 45 Schofield, 450 Revolver, 45 Webley, 455 Mark I, 455 Mark II. The 32-44 and 38-44 Targets (4334 total)are in a seperate serial number range as are the 38-40 (74 total)and 44-40 (2073 manufactured but 786 were converted to 44 Russian so there are only 1287 in original configuration and caliber). In Jim Supicas lateste book it indicates that some calibers such as 44-40 may exist in the main serial number range. So confusing but I hope that helps.
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:07 PM
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Buff, all very interesting. Just makes the New Model #3 more fascinating than ever.

Mike, you are right about hypothesis, details, etc. I'd love to see that info on the S&WCA site, but I noticed that it costs money. I guess I'm not a serious enough collector, otherwise, I'd have no problem with the membership fee (I am a member of the WACA). I just have one, single New Model #3 (photo below) and I'd like to get an original Schofield. I spend my days doing science, up to my eyeballs in aligned sequence data, writing software to mine that data, exploring the implications for protein folding, writing papers for science journals, etc. I come here for a break .... just to enjoy. I'm enjoying this thread (except for your comments that express, shall we say, a certain 'lack of enthusiasm' for this thread).

Here's what I'll say to you, from a serious Winchester collector to a S&W collector: When I see a new fellow who doesn't know a whole lot about old Winchesters enthusiastically discussing something that I've known about for a dog's age and that has been discussed long before the new guy ever came along, I don't ridicule him, tell him this has been discussed a thousand times already, talk down to him, and in general, treat him like a moron. Quite the contrary; I encourage him and contribute to his knowledge in a down-home kind of way. This weekend, I've invited a new Winchester collector to spend the weekend with me and my family. He's a new fellow who got taken bigtime by an experienced collector who didn't want him to know things like factory info on serial numbers, etc and sold him an altered gun for an impressive price. He's coming over this weekend to get an education in what to look for in original old Winchesters, how to reload for the obsolete calibers, do some shooting, and just have a good time talking about old Winchesters while enjoying good coffee and good food. I don't know you, and perhaps you come across in a pompous, know-it-all way that is not at all the way you really are, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, you really need to be more encouraging to new guys who may not know a whole lot and who enjoy simple things like the chart in this thread for example.

Now here's a photo of my entire antique S&W collection (it may be a very small collection, but I ain't proud ) : A New Model #3 shipped in 1880 with a factory 6" barrel and all matching serial numbers.


Now, does anyone have anymore data to update the chart with? Here's the latest version:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881 .... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl, smooth wood grips
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904 ... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5"bbl, checkered wood grips, Japan
28501...... August 12, 1896

29035...... Sept. 4, 1893 ... 45 Schofield, blued 6.5" bbl, hard rubber grips, target sights, England

31779...... Aug. 7, 1899
35102...... Dec. 28, 1915 ... 44 Russian, 5"Bbl, TgtSites, Non-rebounding Hmr, Nickel.
35602.......Ltr pending ...... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl. target sights, cut for shoulder stock

New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
2100 ...... Ltr Pending ..... 38-44
3384 ...... May 11, 1899

New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893 .... 5"bbl, blued, hard rubber grips
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:44 PM
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Kirk,
That is an impressive start to what can be a serious affliction LOL collecting old Smith & Wesson #3's. Long extractor, good finish and a not so common barrel length. Here are a few of mine First is a 5 inch Frontier Model 44-40

Second is a target model in 45 Schofield

Third is a 38-44 in niclel, ltr pending

Last of this bunch is in 44R it letters to 1881 and shipped with the smooth grips, only the second I've seen with the smoothies. Long extractor like yours

Enjoy and if you have any of this type you don't want let me know
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:48 PM
Win38-55 Win38-55 is offline
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Very nice indeed! I may only have one gun, but I sure do enjoy looking at more. Judging from how much I'm thinking of spending for an original Schofield, I know what you are saying about the possiblity of this becoming a serious affliction. Thank goodness my budget keeps a tight reign on me.
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:29 PM
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Here are a few NM #3's from my herd. There are a couple target models and two are Japanese contract guns.
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:48 PM
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Wow. You fellows aren't helping me at all in my struggle to resist the 'very serious affliction' that can develop once a fellow buys his very first antique S&W.
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:14 PM
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Nice group Gary. A question if I may, since I have Target Model #2100 a nickled 38-44, I am curious as to Target Model 2001, caliber and finish
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:29 PM
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Number 2001 is a blue gun in 38/44 and 3384 is a nickel gun also in 38/44
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:33 PM
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Here is a pic of my two best Schofields, bot are military models. The 1st Model is #540 and the 2nd Model is #5865
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Old 09-11-2007, 04:59 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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Kirk

If I've discouraged you from thinking about serial number vs shipping
dates, then it was all worth it.

Regards, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-11-2007, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikepriwer:
Kirk

If I've discouraged you from thinking about serial number vs shipping
dates, then it was all worth it.

Regards, Mike Priwer
Not at all, Mike. I still find that stuff even more interesting than when I started the thread. What I'd really like to know, however, is the relationship between the serial number and the date the frame was serialized. For old Winchesters, the date the frame received its serial number was recorded in the polishing room and much of that data still exists today, awaiting publication. The warehouse recorded the shipping dates. I wonder if S&W had something equivalent and if the records for when the frame was serialized still exist?
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:21 AM
glypnir glypnir is offline
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I think it all depends on how many serial numbers/shipping dates we can get. Maybe we can figure out when they refilled the barrel with new frames.

Just because it's a semi-chaotic process doesn't mean it can't be studied with enough data.

But I think it would be most fun to have a really detailed database, taking advantage of cheap communication, data storage and digital cameras.

With these antiques, there should be much less concern about Big Brother seizing them, so why not have serial number information, owner information, if desired, pictures, detailed information on configuration, provenance, refinishing, whatever.

Mike always has such pristine examples, it would probably drive up their prices.

Or is the SWCA already doing something like this?
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:59 AM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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As far as is publicly known, there is no information about when the serial-numbering machine
was run. There is not even any information about the size of the lots they ran, for serial
numbering. I made some inferences from the registered magnum data, and Roy published it
in a recent S&WCA journal.

What is even more curious is that there is no information - at least not known - as to when
a gun was completed and placed in the vault. Some would call this the manufacturing date.
Its plausible that the only information recorded was a description of the gun as it was
placed in the vault. There were documents known as work orders, and these followed the gun
around the factory, somehow or other. These seem to have disappeared after the gun was
completed.

Of course, as Roy has noted many times, they were not interested in future collectors. They
were just in the gun business.

Later, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:21 AM
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That's unfortunate. That raises a question. I just spoke to our government about the antique status of the Model 3 DA (they refer to it as the DA First Model. According to their records, the DA First Model was sold between 1881 and 1913, but they also state that all frames were made prior to 1898, therefore in Canada, all First Model DA's in 44 Russian are officially antique and not considered a firearm. They also declare that all the Third Models,including the New Model #3, had their frames made prior to 1898 regradless of when they were shipped. Where do they get that info?
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:51 AM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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Yours is not to question why -yours is just to walk away with a smile on your face.
Or, don't kick a sleeping dog.

From your past comments, are you involved in cell biology ?

Later, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
but they also state that all frames were made prior to 1898, therefore in Canada, all First Model DA's in 44 Russian are officially antique and not considered a firearm.
You must remember it is Canada and so there is no need for any explanation beyond the fact that it is being done by Canadians! Everyone one is entitled to their own Opinions but Canadians "believe" that they are "Entitled" to their own Facts, as well!!!
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:23 AM
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Mike, I'm involved in computational biophysics, specializing in developing a method to detect and measure functional information encoded in DNA and proteins. The objective is to see if we can decipher the info into something meaningful. Currently, I'm focusing on how the information can be translated such that we can predict the 3-D structure of proteins. To keep myself sane, I collect and shoot old Winchesters, with antique S&W's becoming a strong interest as well (but I'm trying to resist buying any more (except for maybe a Schofied) ... my budget takes a severe enough thrashing on a regular basis just getting old Winchesters).
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:59 AM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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Kirk

One of my brother-in-laws was Bernie Gilula, long-time editor of the Cell Biology Journal,
founder and dean of the graduate school at Scripps in La Jolla, and chairman of the Cell
Biology department there. He and his wife, another researcher, and their graduate students
were/are involved in similar studies, although from the cell biology perspective.

Regards, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-12-2007, 02:11 PM
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Mike, that is a very prestigious position your brother-in-law had. I'm familiar with the journal ... a very good one.
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:41 PM
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Really interesting stuff. I'll add one to the list. No. 3 with serial number 34040, 44R, target sights, 6 1/2 blue barrel. Shipped May 24, 1904 to William Read & Sons Boston. This serial number is on the bottom of an original box I have and I lettered the box just to see what I could learn.
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:23 PM
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Thanks, Lawlor2. Here's the latest version:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881 .... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl, smooth wood grips
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904 ... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5"bbl, checkered wood grips, Japan
28501...... August 12, 1896

29035...... Sept. 4, 1893 ... 45 Schofield, blued 6.5" bbl, hard rubber grips, target sights, England

31779...... Aug. 7, 1899
34040...... May 24, 1904 .....44 Russian, 6.5" bbl, target sights, blue
35102...... Dec. 28, 1915 ... 44 Russian, 5"Bbl, TgtSites, Non-rebounding Hmr, Nickel.
35602.......Ltr pending ...... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl. target sights, cut for shoulder stock

New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
2100 ...... Ltr Pending ..... 38-44
3384 ...... May 11, 1899

New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893 .... 5"bbl, blued, hard rubber grips[/QUOTE]
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:31 AM
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Serial number correction
Quote:
Originally posted by Win38-55:
Thanks, Lawlor2. Here's the latest version:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881 .... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl, smooth wood grips
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904 ... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5"bbl, checkered wood grips, Japan
28501...... August 12, 1896

28035...... Sept. 4, 1893 ... 45 Schofield, blued 6.5" bbl, hard rubber grips, target sights, England

31779...... Aug. 7, 1899
34040...... May 24, 1904 .....44 Russian, 6.5" bbl, target sights, blue
35102...... Dec. 28, 1915 ... 44 Russian, 5"Bbl, TgtSites, Non-rebounding Hmr, Nickel.
35602.......Ltr pending ...... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl. target sights, cut for shoulder stock

New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
2100 ...... Ltr Pending ..... 38-44
3384 ...... May 11, 1899

New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893 .... 5"bbl, blued, hard rubber grips
[/QUOTE]
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