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S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


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Old 02-15-2009, 01:16 PM
Levallois Levallois is offline
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These were apparently made by Orbea Hermanos of Spain and marked "R.M." with a sunburst. Here is one for sale:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...p?itemID=22904

I've never heard of these and would like to learn more as I think I own one! The "R.M." and sunburst have been scraped off of mine and someone replaced the grips but I have the same type of number (not the serial number) on top - Mexican army number perhaps?



Anyway all comments, opinions, recomendation and help would be appreciated. Thanks!

John
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Old 02-15-2009, 01:16 PM
Levallois Levallois is offline
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These were apparently made by Orbea Hermanos of Spain and marked "R.M." with a sunburst. Here is one for sale:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...p?itemID=22904

I've never heard of these and would like to learn more as I think I own one! The "R.M." and sunburst have been scraped off of mine and someone replaced the grips but I have the same type of number (not the serial number) on top - Mexican army number perhaps?



Anyway all comments, opinions, recomendation and help would be appreciated. Thanks!

John
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Old 02-15-2009, 03:22 PM
moosedog moosedog is offline
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Just from the photo it appears to be so close to an S&W. And you know it has to be just loaded with history. An obvious "working gun" from south of the border.
Nice find.
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Old 02-15-2009, 03:54 PM
Levallois Levallois is offline
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I appreciate the reply! I bought it knowing it was a Spanish or Belgian copy but it was so well-made and relatively cheap compared with a real S&W that I couldn't resist. With the markings removed it was difficult to determine who made it. To find out that these were used by the Mexican Army back in the day is a huge perk! I just need to know where I can read more about it.

Interesting how the one for sale and this one have the same wear pattern, i.e., pretty pristine barrel and hinge with well-worn grip, cylinder area. Must have been due to the holster they were carried in?

Thanks again!

John
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Old 02-20-2009, 04:16 PM
opoefc opoefc is offline
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John, I'm thinking your gun may be an original S&W. What does the barrel rib say? S&Ws distributor in Mexico City, Wexel & DeGress handled an order from the Mexican Gov't for a small lot of S&W #3 revolvers, between 1874 & 77, and marked them like the photo at Collectable Arms shows. It is unknown what caliber these guns were and it has been conjectured that some may have been .44Henry RF caliber, as well as .44Russian. I don't know why the Collector Arms photo & listing call the gun a Spanish Copy. They don't explain why or show the barrel stamping on the rib.The grips on it are Orbea Hermanos grips but never came on that revolver originally. You can see they don't fit and they are not black, as the original OB grips on the Spanish guns, shipped to Mexico, were black hard rubber. Also, the known Spanish copies furnished to Mexico had the long extractor housing. The photo shows a gun with the short housing, However the Mexican military stampings seem 100% correct. Belgian copies were also made by H. Pieper in Liege, Belgium, and furnished to mexico. They had imitation ivory-type checkered grips, with initials of HP in the grip circle, and the extractor housing is even shorter than the later model S&Ws. John, If you haven't already, you should get a factory letter for your gun. It may show shipping to Wexel & DeGress, and if you are lucky the invoice might indicate a Mexican order. A only refence that I know of on these guns is an old book, long out of print called "Mexicam Military Arms, the Cartridge Period 1866-1967" by J.B.Hughes. Jr.
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Old 02-22-2009, 08:51 PM
Levallois Levallois is offline
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opoefc,

The problem with this revolver is the lack of markings. There is no S&W address on the barrel (or anywhere else)- only the Mexican army issue number -



and the serial number which is 6459 and is present in full on the butt and in part on the cylinder, barrel and top of the latch area of the frame.

Funny you should mention Hughes book as I was able to find a copy and he has sections on both the Spanish and Belgian guns. Mine seems more like the Spanish copy as it has the short "New Model" ejector housing but also a more pronounced knuckle than a New Model but less so than a real S&W Russian. Also the separate issue number on the barrel rib is characteristic of this Spanish copy. The belgian russian copy had the issue number at or on the knuckle area. The Hughes info is brief.

The only other bit of evidence that I could find was the following short article in Spanish about Spanish-made russians provided to guards in Cuba? My Spanish isn't so hot but someone on another site picked up on the fact that this article appears to suggest there was some sort of short-term licensing agreement between Orbea Hermanos and Smith and Wesson?

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/22-orbea-2.pdf

Anyway, these guns are not common and would have an interesting history if I can find out more. I'll keep digging. Thank you for the reply.

John
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:47 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
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Umh. Two pins above the trigger? I think spanish copy. O.H., probably. Nice pistol. Mike
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belgian, cartridge, ejector, extractor, military, russian, smith and wesson

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