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  #1  
Old 11-14-2007, 11:57 AM
acossey acossey is offline
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Does anybody know about the markings on the new model 3? This one has an asterik between the posts where the top latch is. There are matching two digit assembly numbers in three places. This is where it gets strange. The assembly numbers are 58 but the number stamped on the bottom is 498. You can tell the 5 has been restamped into the 9. Is it possible that the factory refinished the gun and changed the serial number. Are the assembly numbers usually only the last two digits or the whole number. I'm wondering if they added the 4 to the front also. Maybe the original number was only 58. The gun has a lanyard ring on the bottom of the grip with a 6-1/2" barrel old blueing turned brown.





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Old 11-14-2007, 11:57 AM
acossey acossey is offline
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Does anybody know about the markings on the new model 3? This one has an asterik between the posts where the top latch is. There are matching two digit assembly numbers in three places. This is where it gets strange. The assembly numbers are 58 but the number stamped on the bottom is 498. You can tell the 5 has been restamped into the 9. Is it possible that the factory refinished the gun and changed the serial number. Are the assembly numbers usually only the last two digits or the whole number. I'm wondering if they added the 4 to the front also. Maybe the original number was only 58. The gun has a lanyard ring on the bottom of the grip with a 6-1/2" barrel old blueing turned brown.





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Old 11-14-2007, 02:09 PM
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I'm pretty sure that's a 53, not a 58!

They didn't use assembly numbers back then. The true serial number should appear on the latch, on the barrel between the notches where the latch pivots, (as can be seen in your picture of the bottom of the latch), on the cylinder face, and on the butt. (the lanyard ring on mine is aftermarket, so the frame serial is completely obscured)

So, either your frame doesn't match everything else, or more likely, the number on the frame was re-stamped when the lanyard ring was added, and it's some kind of rack number. My guess is that it's aftermarket like mine is. Probably added by the dealer at the time of sale. In any case, serial number 53 is definitely an early one! It's definetly worth a factory letter! btw, mine is in the 13,000 range.

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Old 11-14-2007, 02:32 PM
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I thought the same thing about the 8 looking a lot like a three. Differnt camera angle makes it look more like an 8. The 58 stamped on the latch next to post is more clearly 58 and the one stamped inside the grip is 58. Does the astrick between the post represent a factory rework? There is also what looks like the letter p stamped in the bottom strap below the cylinder.


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Old 11-14-2007, 02:34 PM
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Old 11-14-2007, 05:59 PM
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I'd bounce this one off Jim Supica. None of those numbers I see in the pics are of the style or type that the factory would have been using. Are you sure this is a S&W and not a clone?
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:20 PM
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Hi, that is definately a number 53..the asterik is actually a star...Here is my questions? what caliber is it??? how long is the cylinder? and is there a serial number anywhere on the cylinder? is there any markings on the cylinder face? is there any writing on the top of the barrel???
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:46 PM
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How about a good picture of the markings on the barrel rib and cylinder face.
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:31 PM
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After looking at the 3 a little I agree. It does look like a three in all 3 places. Which means the number on the grip was changed from 453 to 498. The markings on the barrell are the two line smith and wesson patent dates. I will post more pictures tonight. I looked this up in a gun book a few years ago and if I remember right it may be part of a group sent to europe.
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:49 PM
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Cylinder length is 1-7/16" I can't find any more marks. Maybee I'm not looking in the right spots. I could swear that I saw a small anchor stamped somewhere here before. The man that owned this gun was a fairly seriuos collector of older guns. He or his brother were in WW2 and brought back lugers, mauser snipers rifles and other items. Maybee this came back with the others.



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Old 11-14-2007, 08:56 PM
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Old 11-15-2007, 09:45 AM
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First off, the three digit number on the butt is not consistent in size or font with S&W factory markings I have seen. Usually when the factory installed a swivel or made a cut for a shoulder stock therefore defacing the original serial number, the frame was remarked on the side of the grip frame under the grip usually the left side. On yours the 9 looks like it is stamped over a 5 and the 8 over a 3.

It is probably chambered for 44 Russian. The predecessor of the 44 Special and slightly shorter.

The good news is the barrel markings appear to be correct.

The long ejector housing on your gun is correct for the early guns however, the radius portion below the housing should show an exposed section of shallow teeth to engage the toothed extractor, yours appears to have only one protrusion which would indicate the fingered style extractor. A better picture of that area would help.

The “P” at the front of the frame cylinder cut appears in that spot of all of my NM Number 3’s, perhaps Jim Supica or Ed Cornett can illuminate us with the meaning.

I hope that helps and if you get the letter I currently have a data base of over 100 NM#3’s listing serial Number, caliber barrel length , any info you can provide will be helpful.

If anyone needs a copy of the data base or wishes to contribute info contact me at this site or call my cell at 936-661-6156.
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Old 11-15-2007, 10:48 AM
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Here is close up of the extractor

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Old 11-15-2007, 10:54 AM
acossey acossey is offline
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Did they mark the assembly numbers with the complete serial number or only the last two digits. A three digit serial number seems right for the spacing that has been stamped in the grip. IF it was originaly a two digit gun wouldn't they have been centered? What is the star all about?
Thanks for all your help.
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Old 11-15-2007, 11:11 AM
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acossey,
I dont think you have a 2 didget gun I think that the 498 could be a number for maybe a company,law enforcement agency or foreign government....I will agree with Buffalo Nichols on what he wrote...
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Old 11-15-2007, 11:18 AM
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Just thought I would show my old relic american again here. It is #4730. I traded a old marlin mountie for it from a friend. Some old friends of his gave it to him. It was found in a old barn being tore down at a old stagecoach stop in montanna. Some old gunman must have cut the barrel. Who got the best of the trade?
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Old 11-15-2007, 11:45 AM
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Accosey, Chris, Buffalo, etc. His Excellency, Judge Supica hasn't chipped in on this one yet, so I will stick my neck out and give my opinion: (excellent photos, BTW!) This a NM #3 S&W, serial number 53, that wound up in some foreign country's police or military armory and acquired the lanyard swivel, either there or it was added by a distributor at the request of their foreign customer. Addition of the swivel obliterated the # 53 on the butt and the current number there was added after market. All the aspects of the gun fit the early version of the NM#3s. The "P" in the cylinder cut is a fitters/assemblers mark. Possibly the asterisk is also, but I have not seen that on other guns, The absense of number 53 on the cylinder face is because (1) a worker forgot to stamp it, (2) it's there but too worn to see, or(3) the cylinder is a replacement. Take your pick. The caliber of the cylinder chambers could influence which of the three to choose, if it's not a .44Russian. I have encountered NM#3s with unnumbered cylinders and found they were conversions to a caliber, such as .44 Webley or Eley, by using an unnumbered replacement cylinder. This gun will probably letter as an 1878 shipment to M.W.Robinson and Robinson's records will show a shipment to a foreign destination. Thousands of these guns went overseas and had all kinds of changes aftermarket by various users, so that when a collector today gets one of these "mystery" guns it can be very interestive trying to explain what is now there. Ed.
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Old 11-15-2007, 11:52 AM
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Wow! very interesting. I have sent a letter to Mr Jinks and am really looking forward to his reply. All this info you guys have is amazing. The number on the cylinder face is where the cartrige is inserted or some other place?
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:02 PM
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Yes, the cylinder face id where you insert a cartridge. Normally you would see the guns serial number stamped on that face between the charge holes ( chambers) in very small numbers. Since your gun has only two digits in the serial number, it may have been lightly stamped there, but has worn off over the years, or it's a replacement cylinder that was never numbered. Check the chamber caliber and see what fits. .44Russian, or? Ed.
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:03 PM
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Well I guess the next big question is value. Of course waiting for the letter is important but any thoughts on value. I'll let you all know what I paid after some numbers come in.
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Old 11-15-2007, 05:28 PM
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acossey,
I'm with Ed on this one. One thing I noticed is the extractor star on your NM#3 has been installed "off" by one charge hole. This often is a result of military armory work/re-assembly. In your photo, the dot (prick-punch mark) on the extractor star is at 3 o'clock and the corresponding dot on the cylinder is at 1 o'clock. They should align. Please let us know what the letter says. Mike
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Old 11-15-2007, 10:50 PM
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Mike has a sharp eye! I hadn't caught that anomaly, which makes me lean more to the replaced cylinder theory as the reason for no serial number on the cylinder. I hope the request to Roy Jinks has a full set of these photos, otherwise he won't take much time trying to decypher the mystery. Send him my comments if you wish, it could save him some time. Ed.
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Old 11-15-2007, 11:04 PM
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I sent him 5 of the pictures and then a follow up letter explaining about the #53 being changed. If I send a third letter he may just throw the whole bunch in the trash! I'm working on getting some good macro pics of the cylinder face. My digital camera batterys are dead, but I can see some very light marks that may have been smoothed over. The camera shows so much more than you can see even with a strong magnafying glass. Any thoughts on value! Just a guess at this point I know, but I'll be waiting 6 weeks for the factory letter!
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Old 11-16-2007, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
I'll be waiting 6 weeks for the factory letter!
Don't give up, but last I heard Roy was about 12-14 weeks behind. Hopefully he's caught up a little.
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:35 AM
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Neat gun! You've gotten lots of good replies. As always, I think Uncle Ed (opoefc) is on track on this on.

I think it is indeed s/n 53 (not 58, look at the numbers closely). If you requested your letter on #58, I'd send a correction or you'll get the right letter on the wrong gun.

The non-factory lanyard ring and large numerals are pretty typical of a bunch of the earliest NM#3's that were shipped to Don Jose Vallero of Cuba on Sept. 22, 1880.

I'd bet you Smiths to Colts that your gun was in that shipment.

No one knows the Paul Harvey on this shipment, but there's certainly speculation that they had some sort of Span-Am War usage. If anyone figures out The Rest of the Story on these, there could be a jump in interest. Heck, they could have been at Kettle Hill when T.R. led the 1st Vol. Cav. in its assault.

Variation is mentioned on pg. 106 of SCSW3, & I did a brief SWCA Journal article on a couple of these long long ago in a galaxy far far away.

Jim

(PS - kewl old American as well - I especially like the story with it! - J)
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Old 11-16-2007, 10:32 AM
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Jim,
thanks for taking the time to look and answer. I did send a second letter to Roy correcting the number to 53. Is ther any way to see these articles that you mentioned? I am also working on finding the 53 on the cylinder face. with all the help here I now exactly where to look. Any idea what the star/asterik is about?

Thanks Rich
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Old 11-16-2007, 11:04 AM
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Ed, in your response you seem to indicate that Robinsons records may be available. If that is the case how does one access them?
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Old 11-17-2007, 11:32 AM
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Rich, SCSW is available from us, Amazon, most bookstores, or interlibrary loan. The SWCA Journal back issue is probably available for purchase if you're an SWCA member. However, neither mention has much more info in it. The research on this variation still needs to be done. If you're interested, I recommend it as a project.

I'd never noticed the mark between the posts before, but on checking some NM3's here, I notice that most (all?) others seem to have some type of mark there.

Looking thru Charles Pate's excellent book on S&W Americans & OOM's, on page 270 he specifically discusses this type marking as an "assembler /inspector mark", on Am's & OOM's, & I'm just about certain it carried over onto the NM3's (and is probably discussed as such in one of Jinks' or Chicoine's books.)

Pate lists the 5 point stars as one of the many symbols used between the posts on CF revolvers. He lists the purpose of the marking as "unknown", and speculates that it is a factory inspector's mark, or, more likely, the mark of the employee who assembled the gun. -- Jim
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Old 11-17-2007, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by feralmerril:
Just thought I would show my old relic american again here. It is #4730. I traded a old marlin mountie for it from a friend. Some old friends of his gave it to him. It was found in a old barn being tore down at a old stagecoach stop in montanna. Some old gunman must have cut the barrel. Who got the best of the trade?
"Who got the best of the trade?"
I think the guy that got the Marlin Mountie took horrible advantage of you. I am so upset over that awful trickery, I don't think I can get over it. Haven't slept in days. I am going to send you a Mountie, and you send me the old relic, just so the Universe will be right again.
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Old 11-17-2007, 12:36 PM
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I know it's off topic, but I'm looking for a Marlin Mountie.

If anyone knows of one available for under $25,000, please let me know.

J.

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Old 11-17-2007, 04:19 PM
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Dang Nabbit, Jim - I just traded off my $25,000 Marlin Mountie for a couple of refinished #12,500 C**t Police Positives in .22WRF! Gee whiz, I wished I had known you was a hankerin' for one of the Mounties! Maybe the next Kull-Supica auction will have one! Ed.
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Old 11-18-2007, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JimSupica:
I know it's off topic, but I'm looking for a Marlin Mountie.

If anyone knows of one available for under $25,000, please let me know.

J.

Jim,
Ed is trying to take advantage of you- I know your offer is a typo, and that you meant "under $2500". I would never do you that way. Get me a check off Monday for $2395 (just 'cause it's you), and I PROMISE I'll ship you a Mountie.
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Old 11-18-2007, 12:08 PM
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Buffalo, Re: M.W.Robinson records. They seem to be an illusive Holy Grail that collectors have been looking for for years. For the last 50 yrs I've heard rumors about their existence ( or part of them) in the hands of various large Eastern Gun Dealers, and even that a book was pending about them. So far - Nada, Zilch. Next time you talk to Frank Sellers or Dick Littlefield, ask them the lastest rumor about MWR. PS: Lee, Jim is much too much a City Slicker now for an Old Country Boy like me to take advantage of him! Just look at the Big Bucks he gets for those old pieces of iron he puts in the Old Town Station Dispatch! Ed.
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Old 11-18-2007, 03:23 PM
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Interesting Revolver and info. IMHO, in the pic of the rear face of the cylinder at the 11 o'clock position, it appaears that a ser# (or some other marking?) may have been removed there. Looks like a very shallow depression there filed out with some remaining scratches.
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Old 11-18-2007, 08:54 PM
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Your right I saw that area also. I'm working on bringing up that area and another spot. I'll post a close up if I can.
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Old 11-18-2007, 09:56 PM
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Here is the best shot I can get. I have looked over this thing 20 times and taken 40 pictures. Cleaned it wit a toothbrush and still no clear answer. So here is the best shot. You can see some marks in the same area as the assembly dot.
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:09 PM
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I'd say those pits in the area of the assembly dot are just that, pits from prior rust, Also they are not in the area where the number 53 would have been if this cylinder is the original cylinder, so we still have an unnumbered cylinder and a cylinder that has been out of the gun and when put back, had it's extractor incorrectly installed. Very typical of a gun that has been in a police or military arsenal, especially in Cuba or So. America. There would not be any logical reason for someone to file off the # 53 just on the cylinder, so it's most likely a replacement cylinder. Ed.
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:38 PM
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So why replace the cylinder? To change caliber? The frame and rifling seem slightly used not worn out. If was replaced to change calibers then how would I tell what the new caliber is? What does this do to the overall value?
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:01 AM
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Acossey, to paraphrase SWSC 3, the cylinder of a .44 caliber American is bored straight through. A .44 Russian cylinder has a distinct shoulder in the charge hole where the case mouth rests when loaded. Mike
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
So why replace the cylinder?
Maybe it cracked at sometime in its life.
Quote:
\To change caliber?
Possibly, but unlikely.
Quote:
how would I tell what the new caliber is?
Chamber cast.
Quote:
What does this do to the overall value?
It doesn't help. But in the condition it's in, very little to overall value.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:28 AM
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Acossey, if the cylinder was changed it was probably for 1 of 2 reasons; the first was somehow defective or the owner wanted to change to a caliber more available at his area of the world. We may be able to determine the caliber if you can provide precise measurements of the following. Headspace; the distance between the rear of the cylinder and the standing breach ( area where firing pin comes through the frame) probabaly best done with a feeler guage ( like you used to set the points on a car with), diameter of rear of the charge holes and diameter of the front of the charge holes, a vernier caliper is best for this. With this data we can determine rim thickness, case diameter and bullet diameter to a reasonable degree. From that we may able to narrow the field some, also determine if the charge holes are drilled straight through or have a shoulder, if so determine the depth of the shoulder from the back of the cylinder.
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:30 AM
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Dean,

you say:
It doesn't help. But in the condition it's in, very little to overall value.

What condition is this in? I'm really not familiar with how what the overall condition should be on this gun. Is it not very good?
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:19 AM
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The close-ups show a lot of "brown" roughness. Old rust?
The lettering on the barrel rib appears to have either a lot of wear or having been buffed.
It's not crisp. (Same with the line of the side-plate.)
The full view of the gun has a "blue" tinge that I'm not comfortable with. Cold Blue or ?
It just doesn't look right.
The un-numbered cylinder isn't good.

Over-all a neat gun, but I would rate it somewhere around Fair to Good.
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Old 11-19-2007, 12:03 PM
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Ok here are measurements.
.435-.440 for cartrige hole.
.425 at the front hole of the cylinder.
.930 to shoulder/ridge in cylinder hole
.076 head space.
Cylinder length is 1-7/16"
Center fire
I only have an external caliper so there may a little variation on measurments.
Thanks again for all the great advice and help.
Rich
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:05 PM
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It's definitely a standard .44 Russian cylinder.
Chris
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:26 PM
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acossey, Changed or diffent cylinders in the MN#3s shipped out of the US is a commonly seen condition. Yours has definately been switched to a different cylinder, as evidenced by the non-indexed extractor, and since the cylinder is unnumbered it must be a replacement cylinder. It wasn't rplaced for no reason - the original cylinder was lost, damaged, switched, etc. I doubt that makes any difference in the value. These guns, well worn like yours, are what they are - a piece of S&W history. I would agree that your gun is in fair to good condition ( antique standards) and if it letters to the Cuba shipment that Jim Supica references, that would be a plus and it will be worth collecting as a variation of the NM#3s.
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Old 11-19-2007, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
.435-.440 for cartrige hole.
Are you sure on this measurement?
That's too small for a 44 Russian. Should be around .457 plus. Will a 44 Mag or 44 Special start to chamber, just not go all the way in?
(They should if it's a 44 Russian)
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Old 11-19-2007, 06:54 PM
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I have 44 mag shell case at home I will try it and post back.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:44 PM
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Ok, I checked a spent .44 case fits neatly into cylinder.
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Old 12-10-2007, 10:25 PM
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Well you guys were right on with your info. I got my letter today. Some of the highlights.
Cal. 44 russian, rack and gear variation, shipped Sept. 22, 1880 delivered to Don Jose Vallero, Cuba. Shipped with 6.5" barrel, Blue finish, butt swivel,and checkered wood grips. number 53 of 35,796
Any ideas on value with this new info?
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