I have a safety hammerless that I have had for awhile. I was going through my safe & ran across it & tried to find it in the Blue Book. I am pretty sure it is a 32 safety hammerless second model, but am not sure. First of all, the caliber is not marked anywhere on the gun. I am not sure if it just rubbed off, or what. Also, the barrel length is 1 3/4 in. In the blue book, the shortest length it shows is 2 inches. From the pics you will see that it has stag grips (no chips) & the serial number has a star after it. What does the star mean? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Chris

I have a safety hammerless that I have had for awhile. I was going through my safe & ran across it & tried to find it in the Blue Book. I am pretty sure it is a 32 safety hammerless second model, but am not sure. First of all, the caliber is not marked anywhere on the gun. I am not sure if it just rubbed off, or what. Also, the barrel length is 1 3/4 in. In the blue book, the shortest length it shows is 2 inches. From the pics you will see that it has stag grips (no chips) & the serial number has a star after it. What does the star mean? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Chris

Chris - not to rain on your parade - but that barrel looks shortened. That's probably why caliber is not found. I have a friend that has a lot of bicycle guns and there's something that doesn't look right with yours. The experts will chime in shortly
Mike

PS - I think the star signifies return/work at the factory at later date

I am not an expert and only have Flayderman to go by, but til an expert comes along...

It is just into the 2nd Model serial number range, which started at 91418; and it still has the 1st Model top latch. Wanna call it a Transitional?

The star is the mark applied when a gun was returned to the factory for repair or alteration. Maybe the then owner sent it in to be cut off to 1 3/4".

Hello Chris,
Interesting gun. Is the serial number on the barrel latch the same as on the butt? If it is, it a First Model Safety Hammerless no matter what the serial number says. The barrel was definitely cut and I think not at the factory. I have seen a couple of factory original 1 1/2 inch 32 and 38 Safetys, and one 1 5/8 inch 38. They were special order guns and they had the caliber marked on the side of the barrel. This barrel was obviously cut after it left the factory the first time because the roll markings on the barrel rib are incomplete. The question is did the factory cut the barrel when it was in for some sort of rework. The star usually indicates a return to the factory for some major work. Some private gunsmiths though knew that it was a factory practice to stamp a star and did so them selves when they peformed work on a Smith. The front site is pinned which is how the factory would have done it. Most gunsmiths just brazed it on. The barrel rib also seems to have the slight set back from the end of the barrel as a factory job would have. Again, many gunsmiths just cut the barrel rib flush with the barrel in one cut. The picture quality isn't great, but the milled cut that the site sits in doesn't look right to me. It looks too wide near the base. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong.
In this case a factory letter won't help you unless you know the exact date it was shipped back to the factory and the name of the person who shipped it. That would be the only way to find it in the company records. Without a factory letter to prove it, this is just another cut barreled old Safety even if it was done at the factory. Whoever did it though did a nice job.

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Mark Connot

cflier, I am just curious. Why would you say it is a first model, even though the serial number is in the second model range? I am just curious. I will check the number on the barrel latch tomorrow. The gun is in my safe in my office at work. I will update then & also look closer at the milled cut that the sight sits in.

Thanks to everyone for the info. It is much appreciated.

Chris

To quote a usually reliable source (me) it has the 1st model top latch that pushes forward to open. A 2nd model would have the more usual T-shaped latch that pulls up to open.

OK. the 3 serial numbers that I found all match. Of course there is the one on the butt, one on the cylinder & one on the top strap near the latch. Also upon close inspection of the milled cut that the sight sits in, it looks like ****. It is too long & too wide & there are 2 cuts with differing lengths, so I don't think it was done at the factory. So I basically have a chopped up safety hammerless first model.

Now I am confused about another safety hammerless that I have, because the caliber is nowhere to be found on it either. And I really don't think this one has been cut. It is a 3 1/4 in nickel plated w/what looks to be mother of pearl grips. It doesn't have the caliber stamped anywhere either. It also has a star after the serial # on the butt. Pics to follow. It also looks to be a first model, but why isn't the caliber on the barrel? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Chris

I don't know the minutae of caliber markings.

I bet the star is for a nickel refinish.

Chris,
The second Safety you show is a late 3rd model 38. The barrel has not been cut but it does have a factory rework star. It might have been renickeled or some other work done, or as I explained above, some gunsmiths have been known to add a star when they worked on the old Smiths.
It was probably shipped around 1897 or 1898. Most early Safetys did not have caliber markings. But most special order and short barrel safetys did. Very early short barrel Safetys have a two line address on the left side of the barrel. And the earliest ones have the patent roll marks going up the barrel rib onto to the topstrap almost to the site. Having said all of that you can never say never when dealing with the old safetys as the factory changed their procedures at times and then changed back. The short barrel guns in general though have their own characteristics that are not necessarily shared by the standard barrel length Safety Hammerless.

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Mark Connot

cflier, thank you very much for the info. It is much appreciated. I am alot more familier with the newer Smiths, but older ones like these, I don't know a whole lot about. Thanks again.

Chris

Just an opinion, but they both look like 3rd Model 38's to me. The cylinder of the snubby is too long for a 32, and the latches look identical. Am I crazy?

Local Hand,
I believe you are correct. The latch is a 3rd model 38 and the cylinder looks like a 38 S&W also. I should have looked closer.

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Mark Connot

Mark; Don't blame yourself. The OP didn't include any photos of the Front or Rear of the Cylinder and/or Barrel that would have helped. And, also as part of his first Post he also stated "<span class="ev_code_RED">...I am pretty sure it is a 32 safety hammerless second model...</span>"so you were "presuming" it to be a .32. And, the remainder of your remarks were dead on!!!

Yes it is my fault. I guess it would have been smart of me to just take a 38 shell & put it in the cylinder. I should have been able to tell by just looking at it, but I guess I just had it in my head that they were both 32's & didn't even think that they were 38's. Sorry for my mistake. Thanks for everyones help.

Chris