Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Notices

S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-20-2009, 07:19 AM
AJ AJ is online now
Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 1,601
Likes: 327
Liked 2,010 Times in 839 Posts
Default Old Single Shot Target Pistol

A friend runs the local gun shop. He took in a old target pistol in trade. It appears to be a copy of a Remington Rolling Block. It has double set triggers, the barrel is 9 3/4 inches long, has adjustable sights (the front is windage adjustable and the rear is elevation adjustable) and the stock appears to be walnut. We are guessing it is chambered for .44 Russian (barrel is 44 cal and a .44 Special lacks about a 1/16 or so from chambering. The only markings I can see are a crown over JA&C; a Belgium oblisk proof mark, a British proof mark(E/LG/star); and what looks to be French (star over something-obscured by the stock). No caliber marking at all. Any guesses would be welcome or directions to a site where I could find out some info.

Thanks,
AJ
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-20-2009, 09:54 AM
deadin's Avatar
deadin deadin is online now
US Veteran
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ocean Shores, WA, USA
Posts: 5,265
Likes: 159
Liked 4,009 Times in 1,419 Posts
Default

Going to need pictures on this one as there are a huge number of European single shots of this general description.
The Crown over E/LG over Star is a Belgian proof for definitive proof in use since 1893.
The Oblisk is also a Belgian inspectors mark for final proof in use since 1852.
I can't find a reference to the Crown over JA&C, but given the two other Belgian marks I would guess that it is a Belgian makers mark and is similar to a number of other Belgian makers marks that are letters under a crown.

As I said, pictures needed.......
__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-20-2009, 04:00 PM
AJ AJ is online now
Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 1,601
Likes: 327
Liked 2,010 Times in 839 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadin View Post
Going to need pictures on this one as there are a huge number of European single shots of this general description.
The Crown over E/LG over Star is a Belgian proof for definitive proof in use since 1893.
The Oblisk is also a Belgian inspectors mark for final proof in use since 1852.
I can't find a reference to the Crown over JA&C, but given the two other Belgian marks I would guess that it is a Belgian makers mark and is similar to a number of other Belgian makers marks that are letters under a crown.

As I said, pictures needed.......

The guide that I have shows that an E/LG/* in an oval is British and is from 1811-1892 for rifles (curious for it to be on a pistol). It also shows a E/LG/* in an oval with a Crown on top as Belgium. The proof on mark on my pistol (got silly and bought it for $100)has no crown. Is the Perron taking the place of the crown?

Here are the pictures:
Attached Thumbnails
Old Single Shot Target Pistol-sp1-jpg   Old Single Shot Target Pistol-sp2-jpg  
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-20-2009, 07:35 PM
deadin's Avatar
deadin deadin is online now
US Veteran
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ocean Shores, WA, USA
Posts: 5,265
Likes: 159
Liked 4,009 Times in 1,419 Posts
Default

AJ,
I've got a catalog somewhere that shows that pistol. It may take me a little time to find it however.

My references shows the E/LG/star in an oval without a crown as Belgian black-powder proof since 1810.

I'll get back to you as soon as I find the catalog.
__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-20-2009, 08:33 PM
ACP230 ACP230 is offline
Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Michigan\'s Upper Peninsu
Posts: 3,246
Likes: 196
Liked 1,487 Times in 698 Posts
Default

It looks a lot like an old Flobert rifle I had many years ago.
Even the stock looks similar.
Can't check the proofmarks because my sister's first husband ended up with it.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-20-2009, 09:55 PM
AJ AJ is online now
Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 1,601
Likes: 327
Liked 2,010 Times in 839 Posts
Default

More pictures.......
Attached Thumbnails
Old Single Shot Target Pistol-sp3-jpg   Old Single Shot Target Pistol-sp4-jpg   Old Single Shot Target Pistol-sp5-jpg  
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-21-2009, 10:11 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florence, Alabama, USA
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 14
Liked 762 Times in 450 Posts
Default

As said (Crown) ELG (Star) is a Belgian proof mark, as is the Perron obelisk. (Star) "something" is probably the Belgian inspector's mark.
(Crown) JA&C is likely the maker or distributor's trademark.

It's action appears to be the Flobert "rolling block" which is kind of misleading, it is not nearly as strong as a Remington. Not shootable in my book, unless for the wax bullet loads of the Gastine Renette Galleries.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-21-2009, 10:56 AM
deadin's Avatar
deadin deadin is online now
US Veteran
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ocean Shores, WA, USA
Posts: 5,265
Likes: 159
Liked 4,009 Times in 1,419 Posts
Default

AJ,
I haven't been able to find teh catalog with this piece in it. I'll kep looking.
In the meantime I see that you probably have gotten the definitive answer over on another board. in the JA & C is for a Belgian company (Ancion?)
As for it being licensed by Remington, I doubt it. Belgium (and Spain) wern't known for paying too much attention to US Patents and, besides, the Remington patents may have expired by the time this one was made.

I'm not sure that the action is a very close copy of the Remington in the first place. Any chance of a couple more pictures? One with the hammer cocked and another with both the hammer cocked and the breech open.

BTW, I would have snapped that up at $100 too.
__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-22-2009, 08:07 AM
AJ AJ is online now
Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 1,601
Likes: 327
Liked 2,010 Times in 839 Posts
Default

More pictures........
Attached Thumbnails
Old Single Shot Target Pistol-rb3-jpg   Old Single Shot Target Pistol-rb4-jpg   Old Single Shot Target Pistol-rb5-jpg   Old Single Shot Target Pistol-rb9-jpg  
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-22-2009, 09:46 AM
deadin's Avatar
deadin deadin is online now
US Veteran
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ocean Shores, WA, USA
Posts: 5,265
Likes: 159
Liked 4,009 Times in 1,419 Posts
Default

AJ,
Thanks for the extra pictures.
As I suspected, it is a loose copy of the Remington , but definitely not the same. Not a Flobert either. Flobert breechblocks are held closed strictly by the strength of the hammer spring. Yours is interlocked by the hammer like the Remington.
I have found several similar target pistols (or as the old Adolf Frank catalog called them "Practice Pistols for Crack Shots" , but can't find your exact one. One somewhat unusual feature is the .44 cal. Most of this type of pistol I have seen are in the smaller chamberings. (.22 -.32) I would guess it was made sometime around 1900, give or take 10 or so years.

I think this is a fairly decent quality gun and you got a really good price on it.

(BTW, Your picture taking skills are getting much better.)
__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-22-2009, 09:58 AM
AJ AJ is online now
Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 1,601
Likes: 327
Liked 2,010 Times in 839 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadin View Post
AJ,
Thanks for the extra pictures.
As I suspected, it is a loose copy of the Remington , but definitely not the same. Not a Flobert either. Flobert breechblocks are held closed strictly by the strength of the hammer spring. Yours is interlocked by the hammer like the Remington.
I have found several similar target pistols (or as the old Adolf Frank catalog called them "Practice Pistols for Crack Shots" , but can't find your exact one. One somewhat unusual feature is the .44 cal. Most of this type of pistol I have seen are in the smaller chamberings. (.22 -.32) I would guess it was made sometime around 1900, give or take 10 or so years.

I think this is a fairly decent quality gun and you got a really good price on it.

(BTW, Your picture taking skills are getting much better.)
Even though the rifling in the barrel is great,(probably just as good as the day it was made) I am not sure if I want to shoot it as it sets. I have been toying with the idea of sleeving the barrel to another caliber.

Thanks for the info.
AJ
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-22-2009, 10:48 AM
deadin's Avatar
deadin deadin is online now
US Veteran
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ocean Shores, WA, USA
Posts: 5,265
Likes: 159
Liked 4,009 Times in 1,419 Posts
Default

If you are looking for agreement on it should be altered to another chambering, you've come to the wrong place. I'm a strong believer in old guns should be left just as made. A good example is the number of Webley's that were whizzed off to shoot .45 ACP/AR. Really has done a number on their value and desirability. I would think that it would be even moreso on yours. You would be taking what is a fairly scarce gun (admittedly, with a quite small market) and turning it into what? a shooter without much collector value.
Of course, I am one of the "I don't need to shoot everything I own" group.
I have those that I shoot and many that I don't. Were I of the other camp, I suppose I would load up some BP or really low pressure smokeless loads and give it a try. Either that or get rid of it and use the money toward something more shootable. Over the years I have had quite a few guns that I took out and shot, just to see how they worked. I've discovered that most of them go "bang" and aren't especially accurate. I shoot maybe 20-30 rounds through them and decided that if I'm going to spend time shooting, I should be using something accurate and practice improving my skills. So they go back in the safe or in a display and my "users" go to the range.
But, that's just me. (I don't even like to see an old gun refinished unless it is a real disaster area.)
__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-22-2009, 11:09 AM
AJ AJ is online now
Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 1,601
Likes: 327
Liked 2,010 Times in 839 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadin View Post
If you are looking for agreement on it should be altered to another chambering, you've come to the wrong place. I'm a strong believer in old guns should be left just as made. A good example is the number of Webley's that were whizzed off to shoot .45 ACP/AR. Really has done a number on their value and desirability. I would think that it would be even moreso on yours. You would be taking what is a fairly scarce gun (admittedly, with a quite small market) and turning it into what? a shooter without much collector value.
Of course, I am one of the "I don't need to shoot everything I own" group.
I have those that I shoot and many that I don't. Were I of the other camp, I suppose I would load up some BP or really low pressure smokeless loads and give it a try. Either that or get rid of it and use the money toward something more shootable. Over the years I have had quite a few guns that I took out and shot, just to see how they worked. I've discovered that most of them go "bang" and aren't especially accurate. I shoot maybe 20-30 rounds through them and decided that if I'm going to spend time shooting, I should be using something accurate and practice improving my skills. So they go back in the safe or in a display and my "users" go to the range.
But, that's just me. (I don't even like to see an old gun refinished unless it is a real disaster area.)

I too, have many guns that I don't shoot. Not that they can't be shot, just that I don't(hate the cost of centerfire ammo nowadays). I am sort of the other camp---"If I can't shoot it why have it". I am not/was not sure of the value. If it has more value than what I paid for it, then it stays as is. If it was a junker or common as dirt then it would be a canidate to modifiy. Have a feeling that this one is fairly accurate. The rifling is very strong and the trigger is not to be believed ( once set, maybe 2-3 oz., have an Anschutz .22 Match 54 that has a 2-5.5 oz trigger on it and this is as light or lighter). Gun show in a couple of weeks, will look for some .44 Russian black powder loads there. If not it becomes a paperweight on my desk.

AJ
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-22-2009, 12:14 PM
deadin's Avatar
deadin deadin is online now
US Veteran
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ocean Shores, WA, USA
Posts: 5,265
Likes: 159
Liked 4,009 Times in 1,419 Posts
Default

Good luck on finding any .44 Russian BP loads. You will probably need to make them up yourself. However you may be able to find some low pressure Cowboy Action loads.
As far as value goes, I'm sure it's worth more than you paid for it. How much more, I'm not sure. Going to take more research. I know I would be willing to double your money for it right now.
__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-19-2009, 01:31 AM
jvanwink jvanwink is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I have a 1925 Colt Single shot target pistol. Sorry I don't have a picture.
When I was a kid I used it for squirrel hunting before I got my first 22 rifle. Great gun and I still have it and use it.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-19-2009, 01:51 AM
deadin's Avatar
deadin deadin is online now
US Veteran
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ocean Shores, WA, USA
Posts: 5,265
Likes: 159
Liked 4,009 Times in 1,419 Posts
Default

The only Colt single shot target pistol I know of is the "Camp Perry" Model. It looks like a revolver only has a flat block that swings out for loading instead of a cylinder.
If that's what you have, they are quite desirable and fairly costly.
I've been looking for one but haven't found one I want to afford.
__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-19-2009, 01:21 PM
red9 red9 is offline
SWCA Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,057
Likes: 831
Liked 1,836 Times in 379 Posts
Default

As others have indicated, you got a great buy. Most European pistols were .22, anything from BB cap to LR, but I have two (one pictured in the Golden Age thread) in .44 Russian. That cartridge was appreciated by the European shooters and is the only cartridge I have seen in European singleshot target pistols larger than 9mm. Knowing the Brits, they may have made one in .455, but I haven't found it yet.

Bob Hart #946
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-19-2009, 03:37 PM
deadin's Avatar
deadin deadin is online now
US Veteran
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ocean Shores, WA, USA
Posts: 5,265
Likes: 159
Liked 4,009 Times in 1,419 Posts
Default

Bob, (and AJ)

I ended up owning this pistol and researching it. Of course now I can't locate my research notes, so I will have to try to work from memory.

It was made by a firm named "J.A. Ancion" in Belgium probably in the 1880's or early 1890's. Ancion was one of the firms that amalgamated into Fabrique Nationale (F.N. as we know it today.)

Here are a few notes I did find:
Quote:
The butt cap and trigger guard are steel and are case colored, as is the “frame” within the stock and the hammer&breechblock . The barrel appears to be browned. I cannot see any sign of bluing, even under the stock. The checkering is quite fine and all of the screw heads line up, front to back when tightened. (This seems to be a sign of a higher quality than normal)

The only other marks I have found are under the barrel marked “Mariett”.
Were this an English or American gun, I would assume this to be the barrel maker. I don’t know if this was common with Belgian guns or not.
There is also a mark that appears to be a star over what looks like a backward “P”. This mark appears on both the barrel and the frame.
In addition there are three “hash marks” on the frame and inside the stock.
Probably the stock fitters mark to keep the two parts together.
I have determined that is is most likely chambered in an old obsolete European cartridge called a .450 Long. It is also unusual to find a Target pistol of this type in such a large caliber.
I have taken a chamber cast and can fabricate cases from .45 Long Colt by shortening them and doing just a little lathe work on the head and rim.
The bore diameter is .442 groove and .427 land, with 6 groove rifling and about a 1 in 32 twist. There is no forcing cone or freebore as the chamber diameter is constant right to the start of the rifling.
This could suggest it may have been for round ball.??
(At least, that's what I'm going to try in it. I still need to find some more 45LC brass to work with. I just haven't gotten around to it.)

A picture of the chamber cast and my homemade brass:

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-20-2009, 02:26 PM
wiley wiley is offline
Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Taylor Mi USA
Posts: 139
Likes: 11
Liked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Fiocchi makes a 450 Corto. Alternatively, there was a Brit blackpowder cart:.442", makes one wonder....
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-20-2009, 04:59 PM
Jack-Ketch Jack-Ketch is offline
Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I have three guns with same design. Two with flobert actions and one with exactly similar action like the gun AJ bought. All of these are .22 though. One of them is not rifled, but rifled guns have very strong rifling and shiny blue finish. All have belgium ELG proof marks.
I didnt know that they made these parlor guns in such a big caliber as .44. I remember i have somewhere seen 9mm rimfire but most of these guns are .22.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-20-2009, 07:54 PM
red9 red9 is offline
SWCA Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,057
Likes: 831
Liked 1,836 Times in 379 Posts
Default

Two more- another .44 Russian and a I don't have the faintest idea. The first, in .44 Russian, is marked on the rib "Galand Paris" (maker or seller?). I have never seen that action on any other pistol. The second is unmarked, for a pistol-length cartridge of about .42 caliber. I can't find my cast or notes at the moment, but I was not able to ID the cartridge in any of the US or European guides. I'm guessing modified from some rifle action I don't recognize. Also, it has gain twist rifling. My gut feeling is American. Apparently not target, not military- a nineteenth century plinker?

Bob #946
Attached Thumbnails
Old Single Shot Target Pistol-singleshots-005-jpg   Old Single Shot Target Pistol-singleshots-006-jpg   Old Single Shot Target Pistol-singleshots-007-jpg   Old Single Shot Target Pistol-singleshots-008-jpg   Old Single Shot Target Pistol-singleshots-009-jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-20-2009, 09:13 PM
deadin's Avatar
deadin deadin is online now
US Veteran
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ocean Shores, WA, USA
Posts: 5,265
Likes: 159
Liked 4,009 Times in 1,419 Posts
Default

Bob,
I'm pretty sure I've seen the action on the first one before but, like you, not on a pistol. I will hit some of my sources and see if I can dredge up anything on "Galand, Paris".

The second one may be unique. The first thing I thought was "Home Made" or prototype in the sense that it was a one-off made by a gunsmith or someone else with the skills.

Neat stuff!!
__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-20-2009, 09:31 PM
deadin's Avatar
deadin deadin is online now
US Veteran
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ocean Shores, WA, USA
Posts: 5,265
Likes: 159
Liked 4,009 Times in 1,419 Posts
Default

Bob,
Well I was right and wrong on your Galand. I had seen that action before, but it was on a pistol. (A revolver, no less.)
Turns out Galand was a pretty famous and prolific manufacturer.
Here's possibly more than you ever wanted to know about Galand: Here
Scroll down aways in the picture section and you will find the system used on you pistol.
__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-20-2009, 11:01 PM
flagman1776's Avatar
flagman1776 flagman1776 is offline
Member
Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol Old Single Shot Target Pistol  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 2,517
Liked 1,657 Times in 696 Posts
Default

I have to agree that this gun should not be altered or rechambered. Yes, it will be a project to alter brass top work, cast bullets etc, but that is the joy of an antique piece. Yes, you'll likely have to load it yourself or find someone to do so for you... I have had a couple like that. What a blast to bring one back, even if only on rare occasion to the firing line.

I had RCBS make dies, turned down case heads to load for a 310 Cadet rifle.
Russ
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
442, anschutz, belgian, cartridge, checkering, colt, fiocchi, gunsmith, military, rcbs, remington, rimfire, russian, sig arms, trademark, walnut, webley

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
H & R USRA .22 Single Shot Target Pistol ol777gunnerz Firearms & Knives - Other Brands 3 08-09-2016 02:06 PM
22 Single Shot Target Pistol VAPA S&W Antiques 19 02-17-2016 08:14 PM
s&w 22L single shot target pistol jayh S&W Antiques 16 06-14-2013 05:09 PM
Identify this engraved .22 single shot target pistol? chrisf S&W Antiques 11 11-24-2012 05:46 PM
Single Shot Target Pistol K38 WANTED to Buy 0 12-09-2009 12:15 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:31 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)