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  #1  
Old 10-16-2011, 10:54 AM
junkking4fun junkking4fun is offline
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Default 1870 America model 3 Smith & Wesson hand Eject 44 cal 2 digit serial number

single action 1870 America model 3 Smith & Wesson hand Eject 44 cal 2 digit serial number
the chamber is all one size not stepted like the russian model
I have photos upon request I was wondering if anyone has ever seen one like this as there is no photos anywhere of the one I have, any info would be great.
thankd for your time Duaine
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  #2  
Old 10-16-2011, 11:16 AM
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Welcome to the Forum.

Pictures are ALWAYS welcome here. Please post them!
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  #3  
Old 10-16-2011, 11:24 AM
junkking4fun junkking4fun is offline
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for some reason It wont let me post photos
email me for photos junkking4fun at yahoo.com
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Old 10-16-2011, 02:13 PM
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Email Sent!!
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:19 PM
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Pictures of junkking4fun gun mentioned in this thread.

Posted on his behalf with his approval.

Any ideas what this might be?
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File Type: jpg DSC07508.JPG (124.9 KB, 228 views)
File Type: jpg DSC07509.JPG (114.7 KB, 150 views)
File Type: jpg DSC07510.JPG (119.7 KB, 188 views)
File Type: jpg DSC07511.JPG (124.7 KB, 178 views)

Last edited by new2S&W; 10-20-2011 at 02:04 PM. Reason: put pictures back up
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  #6  
Old 10-18-2011, 10:28 PM
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I believe it is a foreign-made S & W copy, but others here will probably know the country of origin.
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  #7  
Old 10-18-2011, 11:52 PM
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Definately not a Smith & Wesson. Probably European in origin. Ed.
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  #8  
Old 10-19-2011, 12:32 AM
junkking4fun junkking4fun is offline
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if you think it is a copy let me know where to look and see photos and the info, you wont find this gun, I have looked online and also talked to many gun experts and nobody has been able to find this, if it is a copy there should be thousands for sale online, I think it is a 45 cal prototype by S&W but I am not 100% sure and I am 100% sure its not a copy, some say its different guns put together but all the numbers match, I thin S&W made this 45cal hand eject and then did not mass produce them because colt made the self eject and S&W changed this model from hand eject to self eject to keep up.
If you have any input I am open Minded.
Thanks
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  #9  
Old 10-19-2011, 02:02 AM
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Not an S&W.

Not an S&W Prototype.

It is a foreign, possibly Spanish or Belgian rendering of, or based to whatever degree, on the erstwhile S&W 'Break Top' design...

Not a 'Hand Ejector' which were a swing-out Cylinder and a solid Frame.

I have seen quite a few Belgian and Spanish renditions, similar to yours.

Possibly the Axle Pin for the Cylinder on yours, accomplishes the Cartridge ejection process by being depressed by Hand, instead of ejection being automatic when the Revolver is simply opened...so in that sense, "yes", it could be called a 'Hand Ejector' of sorts, but, in a different way than how that term usually denotes.

There were quite a few foreign Companies in the 1890s till about 1918 or so, who made these renditions.

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 10-19-2011 at 02:04 AM.
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  #10  
Old 10-19-2011, 07:29 AM
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If you are able to post close-up photos of any stampings (lettering, numbers, proof marks) we may have a better idea of its origin. Member Ed is a somewhat experienced collector ( ) and may have more info if you can do that.
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  #11  
Old 10-19-2011, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
colt made the self eject
And pray tell, just which Colt is that?

I have seen a number of knockoffs of S&W topbreaks but this the first one with the Schofield top latch. And I am pretty sure it IS a knockoff.
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  #12  
Old 10-19-2011, 09:01 AM
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It wouldn't surprise me if that gun has no markings...
It looks almost homemade or, at least, a Frankengun.
(Somehow "Khyber Pass" comes to mind.....)
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  #13  
Old 10-19-2011, 10:31 AM
junkking4fun junkking4fun is offline
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Here Is some close up photos
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File Type: jpg trigger.JPG (116.9 KB, 178 views)
File Type: jpg usa.JPG (138.7 KB, 173 views)
File Type: jpg XX.JPG (134.6 KB, 183 views)
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  #14  
Old 10-19-2011, 10:46 AM
junkking4fun junkking4fun is offline
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cylender and frame
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File Type: jpg cylender.JPG (127.6 KB, 126 views)
File Type: jpg cylender2.JPG (103.5 KB, 121 views)
File Type: jpg frame.JPG (139.2 KB, 114 views)
File Type: jpg frame2.JPG (127.2 KB, 122 views)
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  #15  
Old 10-19-2011, 11:16 AM
10/22 10/22 is offline
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In the pics of cylinder being held, it looks like it does have a slight step in cylinders.
Could this be a Chinese copy? Oh no, they do better work. Back to that Khyber Pass theory. This is a very crudely made gun, something all USA manufactures were well beyond in capability and technology. Even the European copies are much finer work.
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Old 10-19-2011, 03:01 PM
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junking4fun, Sorry, but this gun is a copy, crudely made somewhere far away from the USA. Your pictures cleary prove this. The various points of design, etc. that differ from a real S&W are numerous. Get yourself a real American Model and follow the comparisons (1) the view of the action shows a different design than a S&W. The action is similar, but the parts are of different dimensions, etc. (2) The cylinder chambers are countersunk. Not true in a S&W (3) the grip pin on the grip frame is located at the heel. S&Ws are in the center of the butt frame. (4) the number 17 and the letters on the butt are not S&W types. (5) The push type extractor bar is is the crude type seen on "Kyber Pass" guns. The total workmanship is too crude to even have been a prototype by S&W. All screws and pins are of the wrong dimensions to have been made by S&W. If these points of comparison don't convince you, then try to fit the screws in this gun into a real S&W. You will find you can't, as they will be the wrong screw thread pitch for a S&W. S&W used their own proprietary screw thread pitch and non S&W screws will never work in a real S&W. Sorry, but your gun is a crude copy. That doesn't mean you vcan't have fun with it and increase your knowledge about real S&Ws and the many different copies out there. Good Luck! Ed.
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  #17  
Old 10-19-2011, 03:42 PM
junkking4fun junkking4fun is offline
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on the top of barrel it has 2 lines it says
1st line
Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA Pat Jan 17
second line
24th 65 Junly 11th 65 Aug 24th 69 July 25th 71

if you fell this is a copy feel free to send me some photos of one that looks like this one, if this is a copy there will 1000's of them on the internet,
I just want to know for sure if it is a S&W or what ever it may be, lot of people emailing and message say copy and lots of I thinks it is a but they dont know.
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Old 10-19-2011, 03:43 PM
junkking4fun junkking4fun is offline
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show me where you found this info i would like to see photos you found just like this one thanks
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junkking4fun View Post
on the top of barrel it has 2 lines it says
1st line
Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA Pat Jan 17
second line
24th 65 Junly 11th 65 Aug 24th 69 July 25th 71

if you fell this is a copy feel free to send me some photos of one that looks like this one, if this is a copy there will 1000's of them on the internet,
I just want to know for sure if it is a S&W or what ever it may be, lot of people emailing and message say copy and lots of I thinks it is a but they dont know.
I don't want to be rude, but why would you think some guys making these in the front yard of their goat shed could build thousands? There were factories in the US that produced thousands of quality guns you will be lucky to see in your lifetime. If it were not for the net some very famous makes like Merwin & Hulbert would be practically unknown to all but avid collectors. Take the word of those who know. Smith & Wesson never came within a thousand miles of this handgun
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  #20  
Old 10-19-2011, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
if this is a copy there will 1000's of them on the Internet
What makes you think this??
If, as suspected, it a "Khyber Pass" gun, there are no two the same as they were cobbled together from hand made and salvaged parts.
Sometimes they even "marked" them with actual names and dates. Most times these markings were quite crude and didn't necessarily make sense. The barrel markings you posted are not quite right for any known S&W. Close, but not complete.
How about some pictures of the barrel markings?
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  #21  
Old 10-19-2011, 04:35 PM
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Check page 89 in the Supica book. Here is the google link


Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson - Jim Supica, Richard Nahas - Google Books
It states the foreign copies patterned after the Schofields almost all have the shorter new model 3 ejector housing, which this gun does.
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:38 PM
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Duaine,

If you don't want to believe any of the excellent information you've been provided with so far,why don't you send off to Roy for a Factory Research Letter as I recommended you should do when I first emailed you?? I even sent you the PDF File to print out the Letter!! What more are you asking of everybody?? If you don't want to believe anyone here,I'm sure he'll set you straight!!

Ed Cornett's information is as best as it gets!! Ed has forgotten more about these Early Lg-Frame Top-Breaks than most of us have ever known or will hope to know!! I'm sure I can speak for most when I say that generally the information he posts is considered to be undisputable concerning these Revolvers!! He's been at this for quite some time & has seen most of what there is to see!! Ed,keep up the good work!!
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Old 10-19-2011, 05:03 PM
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Khyber Pass according to the internet made exact copies of originals, so why cant i find one that looks like this one. guns made by Khyber Pass are not even close
so what is your next guess on what you think
thanks
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Old 10-19-2011, 05:06 PM
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I have taken your advice as for Ed Cornett's opinion I listen but his toughts do not match up, he is only making guesses because he can not find this gun made by any one so he assums it is a copy but he really has no idea, If he can see it in a book he has no clue what it is
thanks
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Old 10-19-2011, 05:53 PM
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ejector housing is coverd on Schofields mine has the shaft exposed
there is alot of photos close to this one but not the same, I originaly thought Schofield, but after looking its not, if I knew the size S&W used to mark the serial numbers I could compare mine that might be the biggest clue all my number 17 are the same size any one have an old model 3 that can mesure a serial number and let me know what it is thanks
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:04 PM
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Dont get me wrong this is only a gun nothing to get into a pissing match over, I think this is a learning experiance even for the Experts who think they have seen it all but has not , and I have offers from $150.00 to $7200.00 so this is one of the reasons I want to know for sure what it is, if its fake its fake if it is real it is real, I wont sell it till I know without a doubt. I know it is rear because there is no know others out there thanks
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:17 PM
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Take the 7200 and run fast.
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:28 PM
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There are three major variations of the № 3 as delivered to the Russians during the first contract:
1. First issue - revolvers with old style straight bottom frames, small trigger pin, old style hinge pin, and marked with assembly numbers. Some of these may be missing some of the first mechanical improvements. Of the approximately 500 first issue revolvers that were manufactured, so far, only two pieces are currently known.
2. Second issue - revolvers with old style straight bottom frames, the small trigger pin, old style hinge pin, but marked with full serial numbers instead of assembly numbers. Approx 2500 pieces manufactured. (revolvers have been observed with high, 5000ish, serials? Datig)
3. Third issue - guns with new style (enlarged trigger pin boss) frames, enlarged trigger pin, new style 2 piece hinge pin, and marked with full serial numbers. Approx 15-17000 third issue revolvers produced.

The original Smith & Wesson №3 "Americans" had been produced with a full serial number on the butt and the inside of the right grip plate. Assembly numbers were put on the major parts; the master assembly number on the frame was found on the right side of the butt portion of the frame underneath the right grip plate and the matching assembly numbers were located on the face of the cylinder, the barrel latch and the rear face of the barrel extension.
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:31 PM
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I dont need the money , but I will sell it when I know what it is for sure and price it at a fair price if its a copy I will sell as copy if original I will sell as original if prototype I will sell as prototype I would feel good selling it till I know what it is for sure thanks
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:43 PM
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One last try to convince you that what you have is not a S&W of any type.
The barrel contour around the hinge (the part with the ugly hole drilled in it and the "ejector" rod protruding is that of the New Model #3 which didn't exist until 1878. The latching system is that of the Schofield that went out of production in 1877. So there is no way that it would be a "prototype". There is a possibility that the barrel section could be from a NM#3 and was used to splice together with what appears to be a homemade or handmade frame that was inspired by a #3 American or OOM Russian. The whole thing reeks of a Khyber Pass type of gun wherever it may have been made. Some craftsman (and I use that term in the loosest way possible) put that thing together after looking at pictures of several different S&W systems and didn't have the slightest idea of how some of the internal parts worked (i.e. the extraction mechanism) therefore the "push rod" extractor.
I will admit that it may well be unique but it is nothing more than a curiosity and is worth no more than your "bottom" offer.
(Of course it may be worth more to you as a means to troll the board.......)

Added: If you find someone that will pay anywhere near the $7200.00 you mentioned, please send them over to me. I think I can come up with several more "Rare Smith & Wesson Prototypes". (If I can't find any, I can make a few. I have several machine tools and files.....
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:06 PM
junkking4fun junkking4fun is offline
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I agree this gun looks like a first time makers really rough but who ever had this back in the day shot it a whole lot, it is posible to be some kind of copy. seems to me they used different parts from different guns to make this, what puzzles me if the numbers are in the right spots and all match I am still not convinced its a copy or a knockoff thanks
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
what puzzles me if the numbers are in the right spots and all match
I don't see the numbers in the "right spots" for a S&W. Where's the barrel number? Why is the hand numbered? (S&W didn't do this) Also S&W never held the trigger guard on with a screw on any gun. Is there a number on the back of the extractor star? What's with the hole through the hammer (Like it was meant for a pinned firing pin. S&W didn't do this until the Model 1899 Hand Ejector) Is one of the screws that hold the latch base on the barrel numbered? So many questions, so few believable answers........
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:59 PM
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ok I found the gun I have thanks to you if you look on page 98 in Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson 3rd edition and where it is hi-lighted MARKINGS it shows the patent dates and the top of the barrel is the same as mine Smith & Wesson Springfeild Mass USA Pat July 17 24th 65 July 11th 65 Aug 24th 69 July 25th 71 and the serial numbers started with number 1 after serial 500 it changed to scofeild
the first ones was nickle plated like mine for civilian use and the rest was buled and marked with US for the military mine dose not have us also scofeild added there name on the side of the barrel and mine is not marked on the side, they say only 2 are know from the first 500 made thats why we cant find a photo with the ejector like mine .
thanks for the help Duaine
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:08 PM
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To All Concerned,

Here are a few photos of a couple areas from Authentic S&W's of mine that have Serial Numbers of the Period to compare to the Revolver in question!! I had to look through a couple of mine,but I was lucky enough to find at least one that had a Serial Number with both a 1 & 7 in it to compare your No.17 to!! As you can see they're nowhere close!! Satisfied now??

I've also posted a photo of the Modified Extractor Rod on the Revolver in question!! You'll see how an Extended Rod has been crudely brazed onto the existing Extractor Shaft because the Original Extractor Cam must have failed during the course of it's use & a hole was drilled through the Outer Extractor Housing for the Extended Rod to protrude thru to Extract the Spent Cartridges !! This was "Not" Original even to this Revolver!!

I think it's about time we put this Thread to bed as I believe all of the pertinent information needed to prove our point has been passed on!! What do all of you think??
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:11 PM
vytautus vytautus is offline
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I measured my serial numbers on my Anitua Y Charlo Merwin Hulbert copy's hammer. They look like the same script as yours and are 3mm tall. The barrel address could also be explained this way. Spanish patents were for different periods than US patents. Try putting a 44-40 cartridge in the cylinder and a 44 special. If neither go, your gun is probably chambered for 44-30 MH or 44 Mexican. It is likely a Spanish copy made for the Mexican market. They made copies of everything some licensed some not. Read this link: http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/PR-one.pdf
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:21 PM
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Forgive me for saying this,but I don't think that the combined expertise of hundred of years of the forum members,most light years ahead of me,(and I deem it a copy) is going to convince him that it is anything other than an ultra rarity.
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post
Forgive me for saying this,but I don't think that the combined expertise of hundred of years of the forum members,most light years ahead of me,(and I deem it a copy) is going to convince him that it is anything other than an ultra rarity.
Ya Think So??? Ha!Ha!
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:54 PM
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Duaine,
You must have a different copy of the SCSW 3rd Edition than I do......
To start with, Schofield's have the patent markings on the side of the extractor housing (the one that is missing on yours) not on the top of the barrel. These same patent dates are found on top of the barrel on the New Model #3.
(And many of the inferior Spanish copies.)
The "U.S." marking on the butt is crosswise to the frame (either on the toe or heel, depending on model) not lengthwise as it is on yours.
As for your other claims... Serial changing after 500, First ones plated, the rest blued, only 2 known from the first 500, etc., I can't seem to find any of this in the SCSW. Where are you finding it?

Aside from the gun under discussion, where are you from?
I'm getting the feeling you are not a native English speaker and there may be some things being lost in translation.
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  #39  
Old 10-19-2011, 09:27 PM
junkking4fun junkking4fun is offline
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I Have shot 2 - 44 cal bullets with this gun on Saturday But I took the lead out for safty reason and it fired them with no problem but I did notice they didnt fit tight in the chamber,
the chamber size is 11 to 12 mm so some say it is 45 cal,
thanks
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:34 PM
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mine is not a Schofield
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
mine is not a Schofield
No Kidding!!! I guess that's progress of a sort. Now all we just have to convince you it's not a S&W of any kind.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:23 PM
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it sucks when all the 100 years of so called experts say copy just because they have not seen something, guess they dont want to try and learn new things or atleast try. there is more S&W guns out there that are not in books, or have not been seen in 140 years, so I guess when they come up they are copies, I have asked for anyone to show me the exact copy and thay cant, thats all I have to say, the real experts when they see it they will know if it is real or copy, seems by the photos the so called experts on here cant tell. I am In Texas is there any real cowboy experts that knows about S&W let me know
Thanks
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:35 PM
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You really don't listen or understand what we have been saying. There may not be another example of your "gun".
It may be unique, but that doesn't make it a S&W and it sure doesn't make it worth anything. You seem to be asking us to prove it isn't a S&W. How about you proving it is.
I'm done wasting my time. You win. It's obviously a super rare S&W Prototype and you need to contact the National Firearms Museum in Fairfax VA. I'm sure the director (who also is a member here. I'm surprised he hasn't made you an offer all ready) will gladly pay you thousands and thousands of dollars for it. Let us know when it is going on display so we can go bask in its presence. <barf>
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:58 PM
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I myself am not sure if it is real or copy , I thought thats what this forum was for to get info, but I guess I was wrong , all I can do is give the info that is on the gun a photos, and it matches the info S&W has on page 98 of the Standard catalog of Smith & Wesson 3rd Edition if they would have photos of the inside frame and trigger ***, I bet they are crudly made like this one, Thanks
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:13 PM
vytautus vytautus is offline
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The S&W experts you seek already have accounts on this very forum. I will nearly guarantee that you wont find a legitimate expert to verify your gun as original. Also, why did the ejector pictures disappear from the forum after I lead you to the Supica book? Since you are in Texas, I guarantee this is a Spanish gun that was beat to hell and kept going in Chihuahua for a local vaquero by a village blacksmith long past its usual life span, then sold to an unsuspecting gringo, who brought it back to the USA. Maybe Pancho Villa dropped it on one of his trips to El Paso. I also give up and wish you luck!
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:46 PM
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I didnt take any photos off, and you are rude, and very unprofessional
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:01 AM
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This thread was an interesting read. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but...

To the OP, enjoy your "ultra rare S&W prototype". You'll have "real cowboys" lining up at your door to buy it once that S&W expert authenticates it for you.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon88 View Post
This thread was an interesting read. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but...

To the OP, enjoy your "ultra rare S&W prototype". You'll have "real cowboys" lining up at your door to buy it once that S&W expert authenticates it for you.
I am not sure who pissed in your wheeties today, I know there is some down to earth collectors on here that do care,
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  #49  
Old 10-20-2011, 02:06 AM
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junkking4fun;

I replied earlier to your post, but after the replies from other Forum members and you I think another message is in order.

You asked a perfectly legitimate question - is the gun you have an 1870 American (or model 3, or Schofield) with a 2-digit serial number? The other Forum members, some of whom I know personally as 50 + year S & W collectors, and you as well came to the conclusion that it is not.

You then asked if it might be a prototype or other rare factory variation. The same Forum members that said it is not a factory gun stated, based on the evidence provided, that it is not wholly an S & W product; despite this, you believe it to be so based on the barrel stampings and apparently without other supporting evidence.

May I offer two suggestions? Since you have digital photos available, please post clear views of the gun - both sides, top/bottom/front/back, a closeup of the ejector rod and hinge - on a message. If you click Post Reply under the last message, then Manage Attachments, a smaller window will open where you can link the photos from your computer. One of us can then call attention to the photos to the S & W factory historian when he is available to review them.

Since you appear to have the desire to learn more about S & Ws, may I also suggest you attend the Tulsa Arms show meeting of the Collector's Association next month? You will have perhaps 1000 years of collecting experience in one room, and you can be certain if your gun is a factory product that someone will ID it for you, by examining it in person and pointing out why it is or is not a true S & W. These are not the "so-called experts" (some of whom, by the way, have already given you their opinion here) - these are THE experts. They will gladly give you their unbiased opinion - whether you decide to accept it is up to you.

If you are unwilling to believe the opinion of the factory historian, or that of collectors who have spent their adult lives collecting and learning about S & W products who will examine the gun with you, I'm not sure we can be of any additional help.
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Old 10-20-2011, 03:20 AM
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Duaine;
You made a good choice, coming to this forum to ask the opinions of those who have been exposed to many Smith & Wesson guns for many years. What I don't understand is why you seem so obdurate in refusing to accept those very opinions you have sought. Is it simply that they weren't what you wanted to hear? I myself have only been studying guns for a trifle over 50 yrs, but have had a goodly number of pieces pass thru my hands, new and old, spiffy and rusty, whole and in pieces, authentic and knockoff. Your gun is quite clearly a foreign-made copy of the Smith & Wesson #3, and not a particularly good quality one at that. If that wasn't what you needed to hear, then shucks, junk happens ! I just hope you'll continue to enjoy this edifying hobby, and please let us know if you get any more info on your breaktop.

Larry
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