Recently picked up this gun and thought it interesting. It is not model marked but came with what I believe to be the original blue two piece box. The box has the serial number in white grease pencil on the bottom and the end of the box is printed with ".38 Chiefs Special Model 36" and in grease pencil is written "TAR", I assume for target. The gun is serial 1501xx. It presently has a target trigger but there is also a standard trigger in the box, gun has Herrett grips. When I receive the shipping date I will post it.

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John. SWCA #1586

That's a real nice revolver.

I had a similiar model in stainless, but sold it (oops!). Those Herrett stocks are made of very nice wood.

Even though this gun is not model marked it shipped in 1961. Interesting in that 1957 is the commonly accepted date for the model marking of guns. It either sat in inventory for a long time or was made up from a left-over pre 1957 frame.

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John. SWCA #1586

Very interesting. I had no idea they made the Target back then, and a square butt, also! I'm sure you're aware of the 60-1s. This one shipped (to me) in 1986 (round butt).

Interesting that the box is marked "Model 36" but the gun is not model marked.

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John

I found that interesting also. As near as can tell the box is original to the gun. I can't imagine these guns were hot sellers so perhaps it sat in the SW vault for a while. To me the gun is neither fish nor fowl, certainly not a target gun and I think the target sights would be a hinderence to carrying the gun for self defense. An interesting gun though, and a favorite of mine. I might letter the gun and I suspect it may turn out to be a H.H. Harris shipped item.

Larry, neat gun, I will have to keep my eyes open for one of those it would make a nice companion to mine.

Larry, I did find one of those.

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John. SWCA #1586

You're right of course -- they are neither fish nor fowl -- but I have found many uses for mine. Think of having a small, compact, relatively powerful revolver that you can shoot with a good degree of precision, should the need arise. Mine is a favorite for carry around the farm where I might shoot a snake at 6 feet or a ground squirrel at 60 feet. It groups very well with 158 grain lead SWC and the adjustable sights allow me make sure it's "right on" with my favorite load. I really like yours!!

Very rare, and very nice revolver, sometimes call M-50 (I believe). Info in SCS&W.
I'll bet the Herretts are the same vintage.

I read an entertaining article years back where the writier extolled the virtues of the Chief's Special Target. He said he had wondered for years why they had not sold many of them, but one day it hit him -- the name! His idea was that it would have attracted much more attention if they had been called something like the Trail Master -- and I couldn't disagree with him. They are very neat little hiking guns.

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Pisgah

Interesting point, one of the oldest ploys in marketing, sell the sizzle not the steak.

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John. SWCA #1586

I just looked at a fixed sight version that is model marked M36, a little higher serial number that the owner says shipped in 1962. This one came in a non-model box, has the serial number written on the bottom. Just another example of "no rules with Smith" I guess!

John, another nice gun for your collection. Sure wish I was going to be in Tucson to see some of these new guns you've turned up this year.

Bill

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S&WCA #2018

Thanks Bill, I am going to miss you in Tucson. Don't think I will be taking anything out there as I will be flying and the TSA hassle would probably be more trouble than it's worth.

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John. SWCA #1586

Terry Murbach. (The writer.)

I had one many years ago and sold it. H. H. Harris, the S&W distributor in Chicago, was a major supplier of these "oddities".

That is a very cool little revolver. I would love to have one of those to pair up with my 34 Kitgun.

I'd love to find the records / documents of HH Harris. All of the early CST (1955-56) I either "lettered" or received a S&W Historian letter from the previous owner when I purchased ... each of the 4 "lettered" shipped to HH Harris. Years ago I researched HH Harris. I found HHH ad, in American Rifleman, I think it was November 1955. If I recall correctly HH Harris had a full page ad with the Chief Special Target featured. Sal Raimondi

I found the same thing with my recently purchased K22. There is no model marking and it shipped in June 1958.

Sal;

This sounds like a good question to post to Roy, on the SWCA side. I recall he either knew or did business with him.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Missed my chance at one several years ago.
Still kicking myself, although my snub M15s do help ease the pain.

I have examined one serial numbered 1500XX that also did not have a model marking. The serial number was rather unevenly stamped as well, at least insofar as how deeply each digit was impressed, almost as if it was done by hand, albeit with a jig of some sort.

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SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

That's a nice one, and you don't see them very often. I'd love to find one for my collection.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Sal, Herbie Harris was able to get some very interesting guns from S&W and many of the unusual guns found in this area do letter to Harris. I have a couple of other examples. this is a very early Model 60, all the metal parts including the medallions and grip screw were stainless. The gun was high polish when sold but shows wear from use. I have included the original order letter and some copies of ads S&W published for the gun.







This next gun is a Model 48 in factory nickel. S&W never cataloged these guns in nickel but Herbie was able to get one on special order.

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John. SWCA #1586

John, thanks for posting the pictures and sharing your knowledge. If memory serves me correctly in the November 1955 American Rifleman HH Harris has a full page ad, showing advertising the CST. I have 2 early 60s (non-target). You've given me insight to check into them further. Further up in this same thread someone mentions what I designate as CST-V2 (chief special target version 2) the 149xxx to 150xxx range. The original production were more of a soft satin blue finish while the CST-V2s are usually all high polish blue). I have one just under 150xxx and one just over 150xxx. Both are not marked for model numbers, although some in this series are marked MODEL 36. I don't see model numbers again until a batch in appx 1966 (or there about) which I designate CST-V3 marked Model 36. I have a few CST-SS (yup, you guessed it Chief Special Target Stainless Steel) that had seem to have been ordered by Lew Horton, nick-named Lew Horton Specials but were actually ordered by Ashand. All marked 60-1. After that the Model 50. I stopped with anything newer than the 60-1 as in the 90s S&W mass produced a 3" version in black and other variants. Naturally, the bug that bit me first is when I read Roy Jink's History of S&W back in the 70s, stating that 114 of the original CSTs were manufacture 1955-57. Question is, exactly how many produced in the 55xxx to 57xxx serial number range, and how many in the 149xxx to 150xxx range ? I have one in the 55xxx range, (55060) and the rest are all in the 57xxx as I've seen various quotes on the production runs over they years. I've never seen one in the 56xxx range. Since I started collecting these many year back I've only passed on one that had been so beaten, rusted and poorly refinished that I just had to pass on it. What I should have done was record that serial number but did not.

Hey Sal
Your CST-SS is probably a gun from the order by Ashland Shooters Supply, Ashland, Ohio of 1985. There were 666 guns in this order with a product code of 102305. A quote from my factory letter by Mr. Jinks, "The serial numbers of this group are dispersed through a wide range of serial numbers all generally beginning with the AL prefix with one more letter".

An interesting side note! I have maintained a data base from the "Survivors List" from the Joe Miller days and your #55060 is THE lowest serial number I have. Also, I have no serial numbers in the 56xxx range!

Do I detect a renewed interest in the CST guns? ? ?
jcelect SWCA#LM723

Nice to know I have the oldest surviving CST. Can you share that survivor's list with me? I'm uncertain if I supplied any of my serial numbers to the survivors list ... I may have, however, if I had not I'm sure I can add "a few" (LOL) to the list ... like a dozen in the 55xxx and 57xxx range (including 55060). Sal

Joe, it's been you, me and only a few others collecting these from way back when, but YOU'RE the man !! Sal

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Love my Chief.

These were from an Ashland special order (in the mid 1980s) of the Stainless Steel Chief Special Target. I thought these were so hot, I purchased a few from Harrison Carrol, ( a specialty S&W, Sig 210, and Colt SAA guy) as only certain upscale dealers got these. Could not find them locally ... remember this was all in the Pre-Internet days.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Yes, I think is was 1986. I got Shotgun News back then. Ashland did a half-page ad for these. I thought they were slick and had a FFL buddy order one for me. When it arrived he called me. I asked how it looked and he said "That front sight takes some getting used to..."


It was my "Canoe Gun" when I fished around Mobile.

Yeah those front sights on the target model I and J frames were quite the shark fin.

The stainless Chiefs Targets finally got a sight base on the 1990, Mod 60-4, 3" HB full lug and Rd Butt limited run.

The blue Chiefs Target got the sight base for the 1st time on the 1975 limited run of the Model 36-1:

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Now that is a classy looking gun.

Charlie

The first run of the CSTs (CST-1) were very few in the 55,0xx range, NONE in the 56xxx range, and the rest in 577xx to 578xx range, are not sequential. Perhaps built in runs of 10 or 20 at a time for a total of 114 CST-1s. These were all matte finish blue. I originally corrected the Blue Book of Gun Values back in about 1995 who previously had them all listed as bright premium blue.

The next run of the CST (CST-2) are in the 149xxx to 150xxx range. I'm not sure exactly how many (likely about 200 or so ... jump in to correct me) but these were all bright, premium blue.

The box you show is correct with the TAR on the end label and should have the serial number on the bottom of the box (at one end or the other) then another series of number mid box in a white grease crayon type marker. Needless to say, the stocks (grips) are incorrect.

Back about 30+ years ago there were very few collectors of the Chief's Special Target models, including myself, Joe Cebull and a very few others.

In the pre-internet days you bought LOTS of books because the world of data was not at your fingertips. AND you subscribed to the better respected Gun classifieds, e.g. GUNLIST, etc. and traded with members of your club or clubs. Collecting of baby Chiefs was near non existent as a sub-culture collecting back then other than a sharp collector would always be attracted to a nice condition, low SN gun of the models he collects.

The early Centennials were also sought with the airweight nickel Centennial in the front running for the more desirable as many had peeled and had shown up with peeling nickel or refinished. It was (and still is) difficult to find an early Centennial Airweight with a tight original nickel finish.

Then, of course, were the Chief Special Airweight with the alloy cylinder. In the same serial number range as the Chief's special found in the 23xxx-27,xxx range and some up to the 4x,xxx range.

Roy Jinks mentions a Chief's Special Airweight Target in his 1977 (appx 1977) publication of the History of S&W. I found a Chief's Special Airweight Target, which is clearly a master gunsmith or factory conversion in the lower 100,xxx range using S&W CST front sight blade and rear target sight. It is THE only one I every saw. I still have it, hoping one day it will be blessed by the powers that be. It letters only as a standard Chief's Special Airweight with no special comments. When I found it I paid a fair value of an Airweight. The seller did not suggest it was anything odd or special and was not selling it on the premise that it was an Airweight Target.

It was not until the 1960s that the Model 50 designation was assigned to the steel frame Chief Special Target, however it was not used nor marked as such until the run of the Model 50's somewhere in the mid to late 1970s just for that one batch and never seen Model 50 designation after that.

See Joe Cebulls post here: Model 50

Chief's Special Targets produced in the 1959 to late 1960s are found as Model 36 designation.

and as Forrest Gump would say "and that's all I got to say about that".

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

My great aunt Sadie used to live on the Dog River in Mobile, near the old Air Force base. She got to fish in her back yard whenever she wanted.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

My Model 50 is a blue 2 incher, 935J63. I made a note that it was 1 of 568 manufactured in 1973, from Roy Jinks' book.

My Model 60-1, the 2 inch stainless Target from Ashland Shooters Supply is ALU3228. I bought it in July, 1985. My dealer ordered me one when I showed him the ad in either ShotGun News or Gun Digest, so they were made in 1985 if not a smidge earlier.

Unusual, cute little devils, aren't they?

Friend of mine got a Model 50 from his father recently. He is not a Smith guy...but he refuses to sell it to me. I don't blame him.

He did allow me to clean and wax it and snap a couple pics of it though...

This is a prime example why of we should never say " S&W never did that"!
All the data I have been able to accumulate on the CST group of gun of 1966 is 1006 made in #391773-#392778. Earlier this year I found a CST at OGCA and walked away from it because the serial number did not fit! ? ! ? Mr. Jinks informed a good friend, CST collector, and fellow Ohioan that #452834 is a CST and there were 4 guns in the shipment!
Just when we think we know it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Joe Cebull SWCA#LM723

Joe, when I grow up I want to be just like you Sal

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

She lived in a pretty spot. I lived on Dog River for almost two years. A buddy had a 22' boat tied to the dock and we'd go out sometimes. One year I got to take part in the Fishing Rodeo.

I did most of my fishing on the Escatava (sp) River near Pascagoula. Loads of fun.

This may sound like an odd question, but did the Model 36 ever come in 38 S&W vs 38 Special?

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Existimo ergo sum armis

No. But the 38 S&W was eventually built on the J frame when the I frame was replaced by
the J frame in 1961 as the Model 32-1 (rd butt) and Model 33-1 (sq butt).

They have an almost identical appearance to the Model 36 38 Spl. with a slightly shorter cyl.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I presume that the model number would be stamped on the crane would it not?

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Existimo ergo sum armis

Yes, all J frames chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge are in the period where they would be model stamped in the yoke.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The seller states that the crane is stamped Model 36 and the caliber is 38 S&W. In the 3rd edition I could find no reference to a Model 38 in 38 S&W hence my question. Addendum - 5 shot - 3 inch barrel.

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Existimo ergo sum armis

The old Terriers in .38 S&W are considered an " I " frame, correct ? Sal

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Miss-stamped frames are not unheard of.

No Model 38s (the Bodyguard Airweight) were ever chambered in the 38 S&W.

Ask what the roll mark on side of barrel is?

If there's a photo, and it's truly a 38 S&W, the cyl will not fill the frame window even when built on the J frame. A 38 Spl cyl will completely fill the window.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

All 38 S&W round butts are Terriers, whether built on the:

I frame,
Post War Transitional I frame,
Improved I frame,
Model of 1953 New I frame,
or the J frame.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I don't wish to waste anyone's time here guessing. I have requested photos of the crane and barrel stamp to confirm the model and calibre. The seller is well known in the community here in Canada and reputable. So it is either an honest mistake of mislabeling or a real odd ball. Either way let me confirm and get back to everyone. If it is no mistake I will be making a long-distance drive to investigate personally - with cash!

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Existimo ergo sum armis

The person may just be miss-reading it.

You just need a photo of the side of the gun for a view of the cyl, not the yoke (crane is a Colt term) to determine if it's 38 Spl or 38 S&W. That's the only foolproof ID of which cartridge it's chambered for.

Anything else can be miss-interpreted or miss-marked. A miss-marked gun has no additional collector value.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Ok. Here are the pictures as promised. Clearly the seller has made a mistake on the caliber. You can see this from the barrel stamp as well as the cylinder fit to the frame.

The tag (top view) shows that the seller believes this to be a 38 S&W.

The seller has dropped the price to $269 CAD or $205 USD. The serial number is 5J9936. I have no way of determining the age of the gun, but it looks like is was "well used". My guess it is somewhere in the mid to late 1980's.


Thoughts?

Attached Images

	UGH94502 S&W right.jpg (44.0 KB, 76 views)
	UGH94502 S&W crane.jpg (68.4 KB, 55 views)
	UGH94502 S&W serial.jpg (61.4 KB, 52 views)
	UGH94502 S&W top.jpg (31.9 KB, 42 views)

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Existimo ergo sum armis