I picked up these grips on flebay the other day:

Vintage original Smith & Wesson large N frame grips - eBay (item 230387315163 end time Oct-11-09 22:05:48 PDT)

From the photo they look to be refinished. I have never seen a set of Cokes with a full cartridge cut. Is this a modified set?
Thanks!!!

Yes, they are modified but you didn't get hurt for $80.
Matter of fact, if you want to make $20 profit........send me a PM

I'm cerrtainly no expert,but aren't they simply refinished target grips and not Cokes?

You are correct, they're factory Cokes modified to accept a speedloader and they have definitively been refinished. I saw those grips (or a set exactly like them) on an 8-3/8" S-series 27-2 a few weeks ago at a club show. The owner took the stocks off a 29 and modified them himself. He also had a Model 63, in the box with tools and papers that he had round-butted to fit a pair of Herrett stocks he liked.

He was very proud of his work.

__________________
"I also cook."

I would but these are keepers. Always wanted a set of Cokes and these I could not pass up. The price was right even for modified. Looks to have been done very well.

Thanks for the confirmation gents!

Nope!
Cokes have a unique checkering pattern that you will learn to spot on a gunshow table from a hundred yards. Much more of the surface area is checkered as compared to standard diamond target grips.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

Photo 1 shows a set of diamond target stocks from early 1968 and photo 2 shows a set of "coke bottle" stocks from 1956. Note the difference in the checkering pattern. Additional photos and discussion can be found in my expert commentary: "Stocks Used on the 44 Magnum/Model29".

Bill

Hello Doc44
I have Heard that some of the Coke Profile grips had a slightly elongated relief in them compared to ones from earlier production. Can you elaborate on that ? Here is a set I stumbled on while surfing the Internet for some. I found an add that stated the seller had a Mint set of Coke's for sale for $275.00 so I called the Phone number and the seller informed me that the add I found was 7 Year's old, and came from Gun List, and the grips in that Add had long been sold. He said he thought he may have one more pair, but had to check up in his attic for them. He took down my Phone number and said he would call me back. I figured that would be the last I heard from him, but less than 10 Minutes later he called me back and said he had located them. He explained that he had no way to send pictures and said he did not even own a Computer nor a Digital Camera to take pictures with, but gave an excellent detailed description of them. I took a chance sight unseen and sent him $300.00 that day in a Money order, and Two days later they arrived as shown. This just goes to show, There are still some good people in the world and I was very Pleased with them, and it makes me wonder how many more set's of these are Hidden in Attic's ? Regards, Hammerdown

Bill, aside from the palm swell, how does one identify the cokes at a glance? It appears to me that the checked area extends closer to the butt on the cokes and that the top line dips into the checked area more deeply. The stocks shown in the original post purchased on ebay seem to have the elongated checked area and the left stock has the pronounced dip. The right stock panel does not seem to dip at the top.

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James Redfield
LM #497

At a glance it is easy to see the large "checked" area of the Cokes (on the right) in comparison to the smaller checked area of the standard diamond targets on the left.

Hammerdown...the relieved area on the left stock panel (I believe that is what you are wondering about) has varied in size over the years on S&W's stocks. I am sure it has to do with which employee was setting up the stock making machine. I haven't noticed a difference in the pattern from early 1956 to later in the year and beyond. Some stocks that I believe date to 1959 have a relatively small relieved area, but again, I think it is simply an artifact of the manufacturing process.

James...The "palm swell" and "flare" at the bottom seen on the earliest coke bottle stocks became less pronounced as time progressed. The best was to tell a coke bottle stock is by its larger checked pattern (as VM stated). Personally, I think the palm swell was not planned by S&W, but just it turned out that way when the stocks were made. Collectors were the ones who made it part of S&W's culture.

Bill

Hello Bill
Thank's for the excellent explanation of the relief diameter size here, I appreciate it. Your comment on The Palm swell raises a questionable discussion here. Back when Matheis Gagne was making his Custom shooter grips for Walter Roper, He Made them with a Palm swell and bell shaped Bottom. His Son Albert Gagne worked along side his Father and Later went to work for S&W when his dad retired. I have read where Walter Roper took his Target grips idea to S&W for them to Build them, but they declined to do so. he then Hired Matheis Gagne to Build his custom level Grips. Albert worked in The S&W Stock Room when he went there, and about this time span we saw The Coke Bottle profile grips evolve. It is Known that Gagne used a More Pronounced palm swell, along with The Oval shape and More Pronounced bell shaped bottom that we see as well in The Coke Grips. Do you think these similarities may have been Prompted by Gagne's Son Albert since he was working in the Stock room back in that time span, or do you think it may just be a coincidence here ? Below is a set of Matheis Gagne's Custom grips made for a-N-Frame revolver. They show the features I speak of as well as the K-Sq. set I have showing them from the rear. Regards, Hammerdown

Hammersown...It is hard to say, but since S&W only described these stocks as special oversize stocks made of Goncalo alves wood (which they really weren't...oversize that is), I doubt if the minimal palm swell and flare at the bottom were designed into the stocks. If those features were "planned", I am sure S&W would have included them in their marketing materials.

Bill

I'll jump in with what little I've put together through handling and measuring other peoples coke stocks. (I've never owned a set myself) I have had in my hands about three dozen sets to work on over the past few years and started taking measurements for future reference about halfway through. I not found any that had more than .010 palm swell per panel, it's mostly an illusion due to the checkering. The checkering was done with a rotary cutter that was pushed from bottom to top and then lifted up. When this was done from the border to the diamond edge it was deeper by a little bit in the middle of the cut, this contributes to the coke feel but most of what is actually felt is in the contour of the rest of the stock. If you hold them up to a light in silhouette you will see that the points of the checkering are pretty much level with the top of the diamond. The flesh of the hand sinks into the checkering contributing to the overall feel. Several sets of very early smooth and checkered cokes I have or have had in my possession do have a more pronounced palm swell and flair at the bottom but these features probably went away quickly with the need to step up production. These are shorter in length by about 1/10 inch and the checkered ones do not have a routed border but instead are edged with a V carving tool.

Keith

Keith...well said and based on experience.

Bill

Keith, thank you so much for clearly explaining what this mechanical/shop dummy could have never figured out on his own.

Bob

As long as we are in class learning about S&W stocks, Bill do you know when S&W went from hand checking to impressed checking?

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James Redfield
LM #497

Thanks, Keith, for the precise and accurate assesment of the production techniques used for the so-called 'Coke' grips.
Whenever something achieves semi-cult status, lots of misinformation tends to accumulate around it.
It's a real treat to hear from a craftsman who knows the wood and the ways it's worked!
Don
# 1702

James...I don't know. Sounds like a good question for Mr. Jinks.

Bill

Keith, doesn't the more oval shape of the butt area also contribute to that "feel" you mention?

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Dick

Hello Don
I hope my response to these Coke Grips did not sound Mis-informing, as I am only trying to Lean More about these Coke Grips and How they came to be, But let me explain why I feel Albert Gagne was Instrumental in their Birth and design. I do Know from Research I have done, That Albert Gagne worked in The S&W Stock room and was also on the S&W revolver shooting team, as well as being Involved with the S&W Design Department while working for S&W. He served his apprenticeship as a Expert Grip maker under His Fathers watchful Eye, so I have wondered if it was Perhaps Albert Gagne who Prompted this Idea when S&W decided to Move out of the Grip adaptor and Magna style grip Era to produce the larger Target grips ? Roper Commented on how his Larger style grip idea when he took It to S&W was quickly shot down, so that makes me wonder what changed The Corporate Minds to finally make them ? Granted it was at least 20 Years after Roper took his Larger Target style grip idea to S&W Before these Coke Profile grips hit the Scene but the fact still remains they did change their minds and Tool up for it, and I suspect Albert Gagne may have been the driving force behind this Idea since his father's grips were heavily sought after by Competition shooters and S&W had Nothing to Offer in a full size target Grip. S&W was not known to waste time and effort on new designs unless they seemed profitable from what I have read. Hopefully, someone may be able to add more to what really Prompted S&W to make these Target grips, and why we did not see any Form of Target grips at S&W Prior to 1952 when they released the First Non-Relieved style Target grips ? We Then saw a change to the slight Palm swell, Oval shape, and Broad checkering, which involved a Lot more machine work and set up, My questions is simply Why and who prompted it ? Regards, Hammerdown

The first target stock was introduced for the K-frame in 1950 and was advertised as a three-piece stock. It looks like a regular target stock from the side, but has a plastic insert that resembles a grip adapter in the front. Why S&W made these is beyond me, and they did not last long. I have only seen a couple of pairs in the last 40 years.

Who the driver(s) was behind the stock design that collectors refer to as coke bottle stocks may be known, but has never been documented in an article as far as I know. I am sure Roper's design had a strong influence as the stocks look similar to what he marketed.

Bill

Hello Bill
Did those first stock's with the Plastic adaptor last two Years or so ? I have read the Target stocks became a catalog item in 1952, so were these Promoted by Flier or Just word of mouth ? I have found very Little out about Albert Gagne other than what I have all ready shared in my Previous responses of this thread. Do you by chance know when he left S&W , and perhap's what he did after that ? The One Photograph I have seen of him standing with others that were on the S&W revolver shooting Team seems to show him in maybe his late 30's to early 40's age wise. I Just wonder how Long he was employeed by S&W or what he Persued afterwards. It makes no sense to me why he did not try to duplicate his Father's Stocks on his own to Market them, as Hot an item as they were. Regards, Hammerdown

Hammerdown...I have an All Model Circular dated November 6, 1950 that lists Target Stocks with Built In Adaptor for $5.50. I know they were also advertised in an earlier circular because the old price of $5.00 is blacked out and $5.50 printed in. By 1952, regular target stocks for K-frames were advertised.

Bill

Hello Bill
Thanks, I am Learning a lot here, and appreciate it. Regards, Hammerdown

From what I have read about the cokes they were installed only on the .44 magnum. Were cokes made at the same time as the "diamond targets" or were the "cokes" the only n frame target stocks available during the period they were made?

It would seem if "cokes" were run up special for the .44 magnum, then they would have been featured in the ads.

Cokes were also used on early Model 57's (1964-68).
Cokes were made and used at the same time that std. N frame diamond targets were made and used.

Hello Hello VM & 9303

From what I have Read and have been told by other's, The Cokes came into play around 1956 and were shipped on the Pre-29's. prior to that they had Non Relieved diamond Target grips but these did not have the Coke Profile, The checkering Panel was flat, & They Lacked the larger coverage of Checkering on them. In the Mid 1960's, The Coke Profile seemed to dissapear, along the broad range of checkering we saw on the Coke Profile grips yet the Oval relief remained the same. VM is correct in tha fact that Cokes came on the Model 57's along with some Pre-27's from the Mid 1950's to the Mid 1960's time span. I have also heard that they could have been Bought as an accessory item from S&W and added to any-N-Sq. Frame revolver, so a factory letter would be the only certain way to know if your revolver came with them. Regards, Hammerdown

Kurt - I don't believe a letter would distinguish between a standard N frame target stock and a "coke" stock from 1956 to 1968 when both were used.

It's my understanding that all 57's and all 44 magnums were installed with cokes from 1956 to 1968.
I've never heard of a pre 27 being shipped with Cokes.
Yes, cokes were an accessory and anybody could buy them and put them on any N frame.

Hello VM
I was not under the Impression they used Both styles during the same time period ? I was told the flat Panel Non Relieved ones were the first ones, Then the Cokes, and finally the flat sided diamond Targets with the football shaped relief. That was just how it was told to me anyway's, and I want to remember I read it in an Older S&WCA Journal where a Member of the association wrote an in depth article on-N-Frame Target grips, But I would have to dig it out to confirm I am right on this. As far as model 57's went, They also could have come with Magna grips, if ordered that way and even some were sent in Cardboard Box's rather than presentation cases I heard later ones were shipped that way as they were not well received and moved slow. My pre-27 is a Three T's revolver and Letters that way with an Original set of Cokes on it. I have had to learn the hard way, Never say Never with anything S&W they sold what the Buyer wanted Regards, Hammerdown

Kurt - your factory letter uses the word "coke"?
Would you mind sharing the contents of your letter with us.............black out the tail end of the serial number if you like.
Thanks

Kurt - if you have Supica's 3rd Edition book, look at the bottom of page 23.
It clearly states that cokes were used '55 to '68
and std. diamond targets were used mid 50's to '67.

Anyplace here or elsewhere on the net to get an overview, preferably with photos, of the different styles of grips S&W has used over the years, on which models, etc. You know, sort of a "grip tutorial?"

Pick up a copy of SCS&W Volume 3. There is quite a bit of information supplied about S&W stocks on pages 19 through 26. Although many current books refer to them as "grips" and some with "checkering" S&W referred to them as "stocks" and "checking". There is also the use of the terms "crane" and "yoke", but that is a different discussion.

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James Redfield
LM #497

yaktamer....Go to page 3 of my Expert Commentary and look at the commentary on "Stocks Used on the 44 Magnum/Model 29". It will give you a good overview of target stocks from the mid-50s to the late 70s.

Bill

This is a most enjoyable and informative thread that's reminded me of the simple fact that nothing is definate when it comes to S&W. In searching out early S&W 44 Magnums over the years one of the first things I look at in person, at a picture or get a description of over the phone are the stocks. Also, I still prefer the original factory name/description for the wood that came on the early 44 Magnums, "Special Oversize Target Stocks of checked Goncalo Alves with S&W monograms" (All Model Circular from early 1956). Of course it's much trendier to refer to them as "Cokes" due to the contour (now in question thanks to KB's post, thanks Keith!), made famous by the Coca Cola bottle of 1915 which introduced the contour bottle shape familiar to all Coca Cola memorabilia collectors. See picture below. It has always amused me that S&W collectors latched on to this iconic bottle shape to describe a key part of another icon, the S&W 44 Magnum. It might come as a surprise though to know that Coke collectors sometimes refer to this particular bottle as the "Mae West" bottle referring of course to another icon of the day, the film star Mae West, famous for her own contours.
The .44 Mag target stocks have changed over the course of 50+ years as has everything else. See Bill's excellent EC on stocks for great detail on these changes. For those of you simply looking for some immediate indicators to a particular revolver's age by only looking at the stocks the gun is wearing,(given that the stocks are original to the revolver), here are a few that I've relied on over the years which have been 90%+ reliable when attempting to date the gun in question without a factory letter/ phone call/email to Roy Jinks.
1. Jan-Feb 1956 44 Mags will have target stocks noticeably more narrow at the girth, a more pronounced "ducktail" or flair at the heel of the stocks, and the stocks themselves as KB says above, will be noticeably shorter in length which is a pronounced difference when stood alongside stocks produced just the next month in March and thereafter. The backstrap cutout bottom section is also much shorter. Someone posted a picture of this difference the past year and if I can find it I'll try and repost it. Better yet, the original poster, maybe Bill, can do that for us or KB you can do it with the stocks you have right now if you have the time.
2. March-May 1956. Hammerdown has posted a picture in this thread of a set of OTs that have the tell-tale sign of early first 6 month production stocks. On the left panel, notice the pronounced almost double strike line on the lower left quadrant of the escutcheon diamond. When I see this double strike line (as I call it) on any set of OTs fitted to a 44 Mag and they are original to the gun, there's a good chance I'm looking at/having described to me, an early 44 Magnum. I've actually bought 44 Mags sight unseen with this stock characteristic and have not been dissapointed yet when the factory letter arrived.

3. June 1956 -1961-66, the 44 Mag stocks are taller, thicker, not by much, and have lost the pronounced flair. The double line on the diamond is also now gone, and the bottom of the stocks are becoming less oval in shape and beginning to take on a more square appearance common through the 1980s. After 1966-67 however, the OT stocks are the same as for other N frame targets and no longer are exclusive to the 44 Magnum and the Model 57 41 Magnum which wore identical stocks of the Model 29 from 1964 onward.The changes are not immediate and take place over several months and in some cases years. I'm pretty sure factory production techniques, machine change-over, etc., would account for the subtle variations in stocks that fanatics such as me get so wrapped around the axle over.
Another early OT characteristic that has come to light for me the past few years since I've had the great fortune, as have many of you in working with master KB, is the fact that the Goncalo Alves wood graining is actually quite pronounced and stunning. However, the ravages of 50 years takes it's toll on this wood and the beauty of this wood is actually hidden with oil, dirt, wear and tear, which is all ok but not too much. KB, much like a rare art restorer, has brought back to life several pairs of Ot's for me that before he performed his magic were just another pair of "Cokes". While the purist says leave everything alone and don't destroy the character of the original stocks, my simple thought is that KB's restorations not only brings the stocks back to life, but that he preserves that life at the same time. But, to each his own choice in matters like this. For me, if a 71 Hemi Barracuda, a Picasso painting, or S&W revolver is restored by a master and it is presented as such, then it's actually preferable, at least with me. I know this is always a controversial debate item, especially when it concerns gun restoration/value, but this is my opinion and that's all it is so you exciteable types can immediately not think you have a debate here. You don't.

Just some thoughts on a relatively ****** day here in NY. Expecting a little snow this afternoon/night. It's that time again already.
Chuck

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SWCA1517 SWHF256
Rangers LTW!

Bill,
I seem to remember you saying that the "cokes" were only made for the first two years of production of the 57, which would mean they were dropped in, or at the end of '66, with the next two years being regular diamond targets, until they too were dropped. This was either in a post you made a few months ago about one of your 57's, or while you were giving my wife and I some info at the show in Troy. Am I remembering wrong here?

I am not sure what I said, but stocks with the larger checked area were probably used through most of 1966. However, I have seen several 29-2s with regular diamond target stocks made of Goncalo alves that were shipped in 1966. Perhaps we need more research in this area. I don't believe anyone has ever studied in depth when the switch from coke bottle stocks to regular diamond targets was made. I know by March of 1967, regular diamond targets were being fitted to 29-2s.

The difficulty in trying to determine what S&W did and when, is that it is all done empirically. You have to find examples to draw conclusions, and they change when new discoveries are made.

Bill

I wasn't sure either, so I figured I should ask again, and get re-educated. There are so many variables with Smith, it's almost mind boggling.

I do know that you know an awful lot about the N frames and what came on them, and there is no better person to ask.

Wow. For me asking a rather simple question that I kind of knew the answer to, this turned out to be a very interesting and informative thread. Thank you all for the great information. I have learned lots.

I got the modified Cokes today and I am very pleased. Who ever cut the full relief in the left panel and refinished them did a excellent job. I don't have a Pre 29 or any other .44 mag that would be correct to put them on but after reading all the posts here I decided to put them on my Model 28-2 with a four inch barrel. The fit and feel is wonderful! I can't wait to shoot the old Highway Patrolman with these stocks on now. This is the first pair of Cokes I have every owned or seen and handled. Will have to look for more. The $80.00 on Ebay for them was well worth it.

Interesting thread you have going here.

Just wondering if there were ever any "coke" grips made of walnut and if it is possible you could have gotten them, (by special order), lets say, like December of 1955?

Thanks, Steve

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Steve

Come on Steve............don't leave us hanging.
Show us the Picture

Steve....The first production 44 Magnum was completed on December 15, 1955 and sent to Walter Sanborn of S&W's sales department for development of the literature on the new revolver. Since checked target, or coke bottle stocks were made for this revolver, it certainly is possible pairs in walnut and Goncalo alves were used on other models late in 1955. Remember, S&W was not making guns and stocks for collectors, but trying to introduce a new model to the shooting public.

I remember examining and discussing your stocks in Tulsa. Since they are numbered to the 44 Target that was shipped in late 1955 and made of walnut, it supports the idea they are original to the gun. However, I can't remember if they letter to the gun or not.

Bill

Would it be possible to have this made a "sticky"? Dave_n

Expanding a little more on what 29-1 said, I measured (top of the stock through the escutcheon to the bottom edge) some target stocks of known age and here's what I came with:

plain, December 1952: 4 3/16 inches
plain, December 1956: 4 3/16 inches
checked, March 1955: 4 3/8 inches
checked, November 1955: 4 3/8 inches
checked (coke bottle type), February 1956: 4 3/16 inches
checked (coke bottle type), March 1956: 4 5/16 inches
checked (coke bottle type), May 1956: 4 5/16 inches
checked (coke bottle type), July 1956: 4 5/16 inches
checked (coke bottle type), December 1956: 4 5/16 inches
checked (coke bottle type), fitted to gun shipped in March 1958, but it is unknown if they are original to this gun or not: 4 3/16 inches

If you look at the revolver featured on the 1956 advertisement developed by S&W in December 1955 or January 1956 (see below), you will notice the stocks are most likely the same type I measured from February 1956. Why S&W increased the length of their checked stocks made for the new 44 Magnum by 2/16 inch is unknown, but it is these stocks most people know as coke bottle stocks (see additional photos below).

Bill



coke bottle stocks from July 1956 that measure 4 5/16 inches


coke bottle stocks on S147213, a very early 44 Magnum with stocks that measure 4 3/16 inches and appear to be very similar to the stocks shown on the revolver featured on the early 44 Magnum advertisement

Bill,
The last set you just posted look almost like laminated wood the grain is so distinct! Those are very nice.



Tim

I agree, those are the prettiest "cokes" I have ever seen.

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Dick

Bill, thanks , the letter states the model of 1950, .44 special, shipped December, 23, 1955, with checkered walnut target grips.

Mike, (VM), pictures as requested.



Thanks, Steve

Attached Images

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	pre24-6&halfb.jpg (156.3 KB, 322 views)

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Steve

Today I broke down and made a light box that I've needed for quite a while. And with 29-1s permission I took photos of some of his stocks in my possession, thanks Chuck! Left to right in the first three photos are a set smooth Rosewood, smooth Goncalo Alves, early GA cokes and last a set of later GA cokes in the configuration normally seen. Look close and you can see the border on the early coke is cut with a V tool and the later coke has a routed border.




This next photo shows the early and later cokes at the base, you can see the difference in the depth of the area from the frame bottom to the grip bottom.


I'll let others who know far more than me comment on other differences and hope to learn more.

Keith

Keith, thanks for posting these detailed photos of the stocks and their differences. Pictures do speak a thousand words.
Chuck

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SWCA1517 SWHF256
Rangers LTW!