Ok so I have been collecting guns for some time now,and have owened and own regs mags. This is the first engraved reg mag I have ever owned! Its a decent used gun with some fairly cool steerhead ivory grips. The front sight says SHEARD. I know it may seem like a pale horse or an ugly duckling but I have enjoyed owning it! I dont know what its worth,but it was one of those things that I wanted. I thought about taking it to the amarillo gunshow but I guess I will stay home. Guys any opinions on this one? Sorry about the pics.I am taking more right now.Thanks

Looks more like normal engraving than pawn shop style. Some cleaer pics would help. Try taking pics out side on a bright day but in the shade...Use something under the gun to lift it up off the backround.Use a Macro setting if you have it and shoot up close.

Rigger

I'd really like to see some better pictures of the gun when you have them. We might be able to identify the engraver if we could see some more detail.

What are the Serial and Reg #'s? We, the S&WCA, keep a database of Reg Mags and the info helps build our knowledge of these guns.

Have you got a factory letter for it?

Regards.

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Dave Ballantyne

Hey everyone thanks for the tips. I have tried taking pics outside,and also placing a backing underneath to no avail. I will get some pics soon enough that are good I hope. This gun has alot of the same style as some of the other pawnshop engraved gun that I have seen. As for a letter I have never sent off for one, and who knows what Ive got on any of my smiths!

There are about 20 pics of Pawn shop style engraving in this forum to look at in the last year alone, none of them look like this engraving....

Pawn shop engraving is done with punches and simple cut mostly straight lines, not really normal engraving tools, and the patterns are simple. This has actual cut engraving on it, at least from the pics I can see so far.

Also looks like its been refinished, maybe over the old engraving? The hammer/trigger/rear sight have all been nickled?

Yes I knew it had been refinished,but it was one of those must have items! Im pretty sure most smith lovers would have jumped on it as well. I havent been able to get the images to come out as clear as I would would like,but the engraving does look similar to the other guns I have seen.

Try using a tripod and the "self-timer", that gives you a 8-10 second delay before the shutter snaps. When used in combination with the tripod you can get some sharp detailed pictures. Also, don't use the flash, especially on a nickeled gun.

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Non illegitimae carborundum

That is a COOL gun

Yep thats for sure. If it was priced even half way decent I would have grabbed it too. Man it would really look nice with some pre war large medallion Magna's on it!

Ok here we go again maybe these pics will look better! I took many more so here are a few.

Rigger,

After looking at these pictures I am not so sure that the engraving has been replated after it was engraved. Can you take any close up pictures of the front & rear sights? I like it a lot.

The technique is mostly 'wriggle' cut engraving, done by hand (not with a hammer) with a flat point graver and is most often associated w/ pawn shop engraving.

That type of cut itself is used in alot of engraving styles though mostly seen in the jewelry engraving trade, which is where the connection to to pawn shops probably comes from I'd guess.

The cut is quick to do, fairly easy to learn & control and by using a few different size gravers and even liners, a decent looking job can be accomplished w/o too much time invested.

Usually the gun need not even be disassembled other than the cylinder removed and grips taken off. Cutting was done right through the original finishes most often and then left that way.
The idea was to add some price tag value with as little time & effort invested.

There are some hammer cuts (flower petal outlines) in this pattern and some other single line shading cuts done either with a hammer or just a graver alone. Punch marks are usually added for accent,,again being quick to do.

Neat looking revolver..and a reg mag to boot..

Yep a blend of the two styles for sure, more coverage than most Pawnshop jobs and some normal engraving cuts in there too. Man I would have that thing apart and have the nickle stripped off the hammer and trigger, maybe even replaced wiht nice case hardened parts, though the hammer would be tough to find. Again cool pistola!

Yeah I thought about taking the hammer and trigger out and striping the nickle off. There is a place here that does it for next to nothing. I have an old recipe for case coloring parts that simple to do I might try. I do have a bunch of parts that I will go through maybe with some luck ill have the hammer and trigger, or maybe the case color is still good underneath the nickle. I will post some more pics,and thanks for all the nice comments about the gun everyone.

Rob, I am in agreement with one of the others. I don't think that is pawn engraving. I am not an expert in this area, but just thinking back on the 4 2/4 bl .45 SA Colt I told you about. It was not as ornately engraved. But what do I know. It is a cool gun, would not be embarrased to carry it. Bob

Well most of the engraved guns that I have or had all had been refinished. I really wish I could capture how nice it really looks for everyone here. Its just so old school and locks up great and a reg mag to boot!Im just glad I had the opportunity to run on to this one. This one sat in a holster and was put away for some time. I cleaned and scrubbed on it and hand polished it to a mirror now!

Very nice revolver! I like "pawn shop" engraved guns!

Bob

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"Onward thru the Fog"

I'm with stbryson on this one.
IMHO that nickel plating was done as part of the engraving 'package'.
Don

I've looked at this engraving style for a while and think it might be Wolf & Klar. Look at the pic below and see the similarity.

Alternatively, it could be someone in the 1930's taking off their style.

What you think.

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Dave Ballantyne

This gun you posted is a classic example of "Pawn shop" style engraving, in that all the marking done to the gun was done by scratching or punching marks into the guns finish. If you look at the original gun in this post, look at the flowers and some of the other marking, they are done with engraving tools where you actually remove slvers of the steel by cutting either with a air powered tool or with a hand tool and hammer. I persoannly use a Gravermax made by GRS, if you guys want to see it in action I can do some practice cuts maybe in a short video so you can see the way it removes the metal? Its a completely different process than the Paw shop punch style engraving though they can both be done on the same gun, like this Reg Mag has been done.

Gun #1 (RegMag) and gun #2 are both wriggle (riggle) cut. #1 has a few single point cuts in addition that #2 doesn't have.

Wriggle cut engraving is done quickly with a graver, not a punch. Punch marks are usually added to this type of pattern though to enhance it.

A flat graver is the usual tool, different widths, liners will add a different effect.
Fox shotguns use liners in wriggle cuts occasionally in their patterns in the graded guns.
Round point gravers are sometimes used to wriggle cut a gold/silver line inlay.

The wriggle cut does remove steel(inlay material) and if everything is going correctly a nice ribbon of steel will curl up in front of your graver as you walk it quickly accross the piece on a fine cut,,a series of chips on a coarser pattern.
Same cut that Parker used on the VH grade borders and Browning/FN used on the borders of the A5 rec'vrs

Dave B

On the bronze beauty, it looks like the side plate has been replaced.
Does the other side of the gun have a logo ?

I'm just wondering if the gun originally had the logo on the side plate,
and the engraver did not want a logo in the pattern, so replaced the
side plate ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

I have never heard anything called riggle or wriggle engraving. On the gold gun almost all that work is pressure work and NO material is removed. The engraved Reg Mag have actual engraving, lots of it, look at every flower.The center of every flower has many cuts with large slivers of material removed, COMPLTETLY different than the punch work of the gold gun.

Found a cool glossery of terms for engraving that does show wriggle cut, examples below. The first gun is still a combonation of both with alot of basic engraving that the second gun does not have....Like all the large flowers on the first gun, no wriggle did that...

WIGGLE TOOL or WRIGGLE TOOL – 1. A burin shaped like a flat chisel, used to engrave zigzag lines. 2. The engraving created by a wiggle tool.

Pictured is a "wiggle tool" motif on a recoil shield and revolver barrel that has been "wiggle tooled."

The side plate looks like it has a spot or two that fit a little funny, like the lower edge behind the rear of the trigger guard, I bet the logo was just polished off before the refinish or gold wash....whatever was done to it to get that color.

There's no punch work on the gold gun. It's done with the same technique as the RegMag,,wriggle cutting,,or how ever you want to spell it. It's been around for as long as engraving on metal has been around. Looks like a few single point cuts in the stems of the 'flowers' too.

The RM does have the more traditional single point engraving work in the flowers & shading plus the cross hatch work in the background around them. A few well placed hollow point punch parks here and there.

Wriggle,, riggle,, wiggle,, cutting does indeed remove metal. It is not a scratch technique nor a laborious criss-cross punch technique. It is quick to learn, easy to control and can cover alot of area in a hurry.

The gold gun engraving was probably done in little more than an hour if applied by someone skilled in the technique. The RM somewhat more but certainly less than a full day at the bench if he/she knew what they were doing.

Here's a few rather quick pics I took,,unsized 'cause photoshop didn't want to work for some reason...

A few different sized flat gravers being used for wriggle cuts & one liner for the same. You can see the steel cuttings in front of the graver in one pic.
Not the best pic but cutting and taking a pic at the same time wasn't easy!
Steel being cut is actually the shank of a home-made letter-stamp so it's quite tough steel.
In this type of cut the flat graver is 'walked' across the surface to cut the criss-cross pattern. Altering the pressure, speed and angle will get different results.
(Pics off color from the florescent lighting)

I then added a freehand 'flower' similar to the type on the RM with shade cuts, all single point cuts as on the RM and a few hollowpoint punch marks. Cut time for the flower.. 2 minutes. Some of this stuff can be done very quickly.

The top jaws of the engaving vise look kind of worn close up after nearly 40 years.

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Excellent post 2152hq,

actually seeing the process helps my feeble mind alot. your style of the flower resembles these on this Wolf & Klar engraved 1926.

thanks

Man great posts and info everyone! I've been apart of this forum for some time,I had more posts but lost them in the transition I guess. This is why I love the forum,the info is tremendous! Great looking guns and awesome info all around from everyone. I know my gun may not be much,but I thought it was so cool when I traded for it,and I'm glad I did. I know changing the gun up hurt the value,but guns like these are americana and still hold some value,at least to me anyway. Thanks again everyone.

Mike - you were correct, the logo is on the left side of the frame. See the pic below.

Pontiaker - You have some interesting opinions but, unfortunately, you'd lose your bet.

Dan - the gold wash gun is another Wolf & Klar example, they came in various "levels" of engraving as you probably know. Jerry Campbell acquired this gun in 1930 at the same time as Delf (Jelly) Bryce purchased his famous .44 Special. They were both detectives with OK City PD at the time, before both joined the FBI in 1934.

I find these Wolf & Klar guns fascinating, like everything else from the 1930's

Regards.

Dave Ballantyne

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Dave Ballantyne

The gold wash gun has NO normal style engraving cuts, all Pawn Shop style period. The Reg mag has many of the more normal and common style engraving, like on every flower on the gun and more coverage, period.

And your point is what friend?

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Dave Ballantyne

2152hq,
Super informative. Thanks so much. I learned a great deal about my gun.

I have but one of these interesting guns. It's not for sale and I'm proud to own it!

This is a wonderful post.

Bob

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"Onward thru the Fog"

I love it Bob. Can we see a couple more pics of it?

Thanks

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Dave Ballantyne

Sure Dave. My pleasure.
Bob

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"Onward thru the Fog"

Great looking gun Bob! Whats a gun like yours worth in your neck of the woods? A good friend of mine offered me $1800 and a few days later it was up to $1850 for my RM. There is just something about these guns that is so cool its hard to explain.

Wow, Bob, I normally don't go for enhanced guns but that one really grabbed me. I can almost visualize a crusty old Texas lawman, crossing the panhandle in the 30's looking for a bank robber.....
Thanks for sharing, very cool!

Rigger,
I bought the gun this year in Kansas City and gave 1k. I had/have no real feel for this type gun's value. Dan M is the most knowledgeable person I know of as to the "values". I called and spoke to him prior to buying mine. He suggested the 1k price was a value because the grips are worth a fair amount...perhaps as much as $400.00...at that suggestion, it was fairly easy for me to move on the gun because then I was looking at a $600.00 44 HE 2nd Model and that's pretty much a no brainer around here.

Your gun being a RM is a totally different animal (IMHO). That's a high-dollar gun all by itself without any special historical bump from the Southwest engraving. So, I'd suggest listening to RM-knowledgeable people (you are in the right forum for that!) then ask these folks if your gun's "value" is enhanced by it's pawn-shop engraving. I'd suggest the "value" question with your specific gun is not going to be an exact science.

I would also suggest a person who seeks out RMs with a hankerin' for Southwest Americana is YOUR best customer should you ever sell your gun ;-)

lowriderfxr,
Thank you for the kind words. I feel the same way you do about this unique gun. It "exudes" history and "spurs" on one's imagination.

Bob

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"Onward thru the Fog"

Thanks Bob for your insight.I think its so hard to come up with a true value on these guns.I wasnt trying to hold my buddy up for more money with his offer,maybe I was crazy for turning it down.I really dont know what a fair price would be. I look at these guns and appreciate them for what they are,in my oppinion lost art. These guns were made at a time,when the dollar meant so much as well as the ad ons. I once sold a pawnshop engraved k frame with dragon carved peals for $1500 6 years ago. He still has it. He let his buddy shoot it,and his buddy dropped it and quickly fired it afterwards. Whamo now there is a bulge in the barrel,the guy didnt check the bore that was lodged with dirt.

The same thing I have been saying from the beginning, the gun has more than just "wriggle" cut engraving. It has some more traditional style engraving on top of the wriggle cut and more coverage than most "Pawn shop" style engraved guns and on top of that its a Reg Mag! How cool is that, not only does it have the draw for the Pawn shop style guys but also for the more traditional style engraving collectors with the engraved flowers and more coverage than most Pawn shop guns plus the Reg Mag thing going for it in one of THE most popular barrel lengths, many levels of collectors will go nuts for this gun. I just didnt think it was enough to call it a Pawn shop engraved gun with everything else it has going for it too.

Excellent insight from those with engraving experience. Thanks. Here are a couple that have had the cutting done through the original finish. One, the W&K, we have talked about a lot here recently. The other, an RM, that lowrider will probably remember from his previous life here.

Bob

Very cool! Do you have any history on the Reg Mag? Is the engraving signed? I love it when the stocks were carved to match the engraving or overall look of the gun.Very nice pistolas!

Unfortunately, the engraved RM isn't signed. It was shipped to Binghamton, NY in the height of the depression. During that time there were plenty of folks in upstate New York with the wherewithal to afford such an extravagance.

Edwin Link was developing his pilot trainer there in the '30's. Thomas Watson had just recently changed the name of his time clock company to one that you may have heard of...IBM. Johnson Shoe company was soon to be delivering in excess of 50 million pairs of shoes a year from their plants there. Roy McHenry, of McHenry and Roper author fame, was establishing the Binghamton Rifle and Pistol Club, and of course, the Manhattan Cosa Nostra were taking their retreats there.

Relating all of that to the RM is nothing more than wishful thinking with out a specific tie and unfortunately, I don't have one.

Bob

Why would anyone take a perfectly good gun and scratch it all up?

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James Redfield
LM #497

James,

You must really be bored to dredge up this 6 yr old thread of some wore out old guns.:roll eyes:

Hope to see you in Spokane.

Bob

I was really trying to make that happen this year especially since my other passion, Primitive Rendezvous, got pushed back due to the heavy snow this winter and the fear of flooding the chosen site in NH this year. Rendezvous had always been the Wednesday before Memorial Day weekend to the Wednesday after. So usually, the two events run right into each other and that's just too much time away all at once.

Unfortunately, this year I just have too many projects going on and can't get away for anything.

You guys have a great symposium and make sure to post lots of photos so the rest of us can enjoy vicariously.

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James Redfield
LM #497