Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-26-2009, 10:50 PM
DCWilson's Avatar
DCWilson DCWilson is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,106
Likes: 3,674
Liked 5,550 Times in 1,949 Posts
Default HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target

Recently I picked up a small set of humpback hammers that were being offered as a group. One was a centerfire K-frame hammer, so earlier today I swapped hammers on my M&P (1905 Fourth Change) Target model just to see what the result would look like.

Before:




After:




Oblique close-up, with oily thumbprint (!!!):




I'm not that sure I like either the functionality or the appearance of the overall configuration. I think HB hammers may look better on N-frames than K-frames. And since I have an inflexible tendon in my right thumb (Dupuytren's Contracture, very irritating on that digit), the extra fraction of an inch that I have to stretch up to contact the hammer spur puts it almost out of reach. That defeats the very concept of easy recocking that Douglas Wesson called out when he filed the hammer patent in 1937.


Cocked:



I'm not sure I think the profile of the gun looks any better when it is prepared to fire in single-action mode. I understand that we are talking performance rather than attractiveness here, but the gap between the frame and cocked HB hammer is kind of unattractive compared to the closer approach of the standard hammer.


This was an interesting swap-out for me because the sear that came with the HB hammer proved to need some work. Here's a photo that shows the tip of the sear will not be engaged by the trigger on a double action pull; the bevel on the trigger pushes the sear in and the hammer will not move when the cylinder rotates. I worked on the surface above the pivot point and improved the lower contact picture, but it still needs more work. I'll get it eventually.



I'll acknowledge in closing that this gun could never have shipped with a humpback hammer, because it left the factory in 1935 and the first HB hammers became available in 1937. I also know that the gun shipped without a Wesson grip adapter; the one on the gun now was added at a later date. So in this configuration the gun has two features -- hammer and adapter -- that were legitimate options or accessories for later production of this model but were not on this gun when it shipped.
__________________
David Wilson

Last edited by DCWilson; 10-27-2009 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Clarifications
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-27-2009, 10:38 AM
RKmesa's Avatar
RKmesa RKmesa is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 3,579
Likes: 7,115
Liked 13,149 Times in 1,559 Posts
Thumbs up

Very cool post. I have to agree that I like the HB on the N's much better than on the K's. It takes away from the clean look of the FH hammer and to me it looks to large on the K's, almost like it is the "wrong" hammer for the gun...
__________________
Richard
Engraved S&W fan
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-27-2009, 11:04 AM
handejector's Avatar
handejector handejector is offline
Administrator
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 16,979
Likes: 1,309
Liked 17,269 Times in 3,525 Posts
Default

My heresy-
The looks don't bother me much, though it does have a 'strange' air to it, maybe because they are seldom seen on the K.
I just don't like them- on any gun. Maybe this old dog was just too old by the time I encountered them to learn new tricks, but they spook me.
I had a number of decades behind me cocking hammers that had some type of "dip" in them that the thumb could be forced down into. I always had strong hands- Dad had me cutting wire with a tiny pair of Kleins when I was 8, so it was no trouble dealing with a regular hammer. The hump back just doesn't give me that "positive control" feeling.
__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-27-2009, 02:13 PM
Kobold_27 Kobold_27 is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 228
Likes: 36
Liked 186 Times in 39 Posts
Default

David,

Geez, that awful old turkey of a 1905 Forth Change again! You can't polish a ****, you know?

I can't believe how dirty the lockwork of that gun is...

I kinda like, no I love humpback hammers. I might have to get one of those one day.

Best,

Michael
__________________
N-Frame-itis THERE IS NO CURE!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-27-2009, 02:59 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,584
Likes: 73
Liked 2,565 Times in 603 Posts
Default

David

Would you be so kind as to post a picture of the original hammer, in
the lockwork ? I'd like to compare it to the one posted above, of the
HB hammer in the lockwork.

Something looks way out of position for the sear on the HB hammer.
I almost looks as though that sear is for a different-design trigger.

Later, Mike Priwer
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-27-2009, 03:25 PM
merlindrb's Avatar
merlindrb merlindrb is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Very nice David. Personally I love the look of it.

How does it shoot??
__________________
Dave Ballantyne
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-27-2009, 05:11 PM
cgt4570's Avatar
cgt4570 cgt4570 is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Mount Carmel, TN USA
Posts: 1,937
Likes: 110
Liked 437 Times in 192 Posts
Default

It also looks like the humback sticks up too high when fully forward to be able to sight the gun prior to cocking or staging. (like on a single action army). Is that true, or does it just look that way because of the angle?
__________________
Chris Taylor
S&WCA #2243
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-27-2009, 05:31 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,584
Likes: 73
Liked 2,565 Times in 603 Posts
Default

Chris

Thinking about that, it almost looks like its an N-frame hammer.

Later, Mike Priwer
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-27-2009, 05:57 PM
DCWilson's Avatar
DCWilson DCWilson is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,106
Likes: 3,674
Liked 5,550 Times in 1,949 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepriwer View Post
David

Would you be so kind as to post a picture of the original hammer, in
the lockwork ? I'd like to compare it to the one posted above, of the
HB hammer in the lockwork.

Something looks way out of position for the sear on the HB hammer.
I almost looks as though that sear is for a different-design trigger.

Later, Mike Priwer
Glad to oblige. Apologies for not maintaining exact size parity and the same angle of view.

First, the original photo of the HB hammer:



The original hammer installed, with the original sear still attached:



The two hammers side by side:



When the HB hammer and its sear were in position but not under mainspring tension, pulling the trigger would both rotate the cylinder and push the hammer back in the regular double-action movement. With the mainspring in place and tightened, the trigger would contact the sear and simply push it out of the way as the trigger arm continued its upward travel.

As an experiment, I swapped sears. The sear from the original hammer functioned perfectly on the HB hammer, so I just left it in the gun.

I'm not sure what is wrong with the bad sear. It seems to be dimensioned exactly the same as the functioning sear, but there are some working marks at the tip that make me think that in its history someone adjusted it in a way that makes it inappropriate for the gun I was trying to fit it to now. To my untrained eye, it would appear that the sear could be rendered usable by removing a little steel from the back of the sear above the pivot point; that would let the toe of the sear move forward another .01-.02" under the sear spring pressure, which I think is all that is needed to let the trigger arm engage it properly.
__________________
David Wilson
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-27-2009, 06:13 PM
DCWilson's Avatar
DCWilson DCWilson is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,106
Likes: 3,674
Liked 5,550 Times in 1,949 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgt4570 View Post
It also looks like the humback sticks up too high when fully forward to be able to sight the gun prior to cocking or staging. (like on a single action army). Is that true, or does it just look that way because of the angle?
It's the angle. When you hold the gun at arm's length with the hammer at rest and align the front blade in the rear sight notch, the surface of the hammer rises to slightly above the bottom of the rear sight notch. It doesn't give you a full sight picture, but it's enough to line up the top of the rear sight and the top of the front blade.

If you set the HB hammer and standard hammer atop one another, the only place where the profiles don't match is the spur.
__________________
David Wilson
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-27-2009, 06:18 PM
DCWilson's Avatar
DCWilson DCWilson is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,106
Likes: 3,674
Liked 5,550 Times in 1,949 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlindrb View Post
Very nice David. Personally I love the look of it.

How does it shoot??
Haven't shot it yet with the replacement hammer, but plan to soon. Range report coming in the not too distant future.

I did shoot it in its original configuration two or three weeks ago. As expected, the gun hit pretty much where I pointed it, which given my aging eyes and shaky arm was not always the center of the target. But at least I stayed on the paper.
__________________
David Wilson
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-27-2009, 06:25 PM
29aholic's Avatar
29aholic 29aholic is offline
Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hermitage, MO
Posts: 5,466
Likes: 974
Liked 1,219 Times in 473 Posts
Default

Cool experiment Dave, though personally I like the looks of the speed aka "fishhook" hammer better
__________________
C M Brier CPA, CIA, CFE
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-27-2009, 06:27 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,584
Likes: 73
Liked 2,565 Times in 603 Posts
Default

David

That was going to be my next suggestion - swap sears. What's
happening is that the sear is not positioned properly. As you
noted, a bit of metal needs to be removed, from just about its
pivot pin, so that it can rotate forward just a bit. Then it will engage
the trigger properly.

Personally, I would send it to someone like Dave Chicoine, and
let him fit it . Otherwise, there may be other issues develop, and
once metal is removed, it can't be replaced !

Regards, Mike Priwer
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-27-2009, 06:29 PM
DCWilson's Avatar
DCWilson DCWilson is offline
SWCA Member
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,106
Likes: 3,674
Liked 5,550 Times in 1,949 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobold_27 View Post
David,

Geez, that awful old turkey of a 1905 Forth Change again! You can't polish a ****, you know?

I can't believe how dirty the lockwork of that gun is...

I kinda like, no I love humpback hammers. I might have to get one of those one day.

Best,

Michael
Kvetch, kvetch, kvetch! You're always so negative!

For those who don't know what's going on here, the sparkling clean lockwork you seen in the interior photos of this gun is Michael's work. Whether it's his gun or somebody else's, any gun that is in Michael's hands for more than a couple of days gets cleaner as time goes by. I think he has elves in his safe that work when everyone else is asleep.

Michael, if we can set up a range day in San Diego sometime soon, I'll bring along this one and the .38/44 so we can perforate some paper. I'll practice with the hammer and try to get over the quasi-goofy feeling it has in my hand right now.
__________________
David Wilson
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-29-2009, 06:58 PM
jimgoldth's Avatar
jimgoldth jimgoldth is offline
US Veteran
HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target HB Hammer on a 1905 Fourth Change Target  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Live Free or Die State
Posts: 291
Likes: 183
Liked 187 Times in 57 Posts
Talking HBH on 1905 4 th target.

This 1905 4th target is much too early to have been original but it does put a smile on your face when you cock the HBH.


Jim Goldthwaite # 2059
__________________
Gun Safety is no accident.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
k-frame, n-frame

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
M&P 1905 .38 Fourth Change Letter dawggunner S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 2 09-27-2015 03:24 PM
1905 4th Change 5" Target with Humpback Hammer? 410bore S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 9 08-22-2015 03:29 PM
***SOLD***M&P 1905 4th Change Target with Humpback Hammer 410bore GUNS - For Sale or Trade 0 04-20-2014 11:42 PM
1905 4th Change Target with Humpback Hammer 410bore S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 7 11-26-2013 04:19 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:01 AM.


S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)