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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #1  
Old 11-09-2009, 04:38 PM
rtcb8 rtcb8 is offline
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Default 2nd model 455

Help me with a load question for my 2nd model hand ejector #58967. It was rechambered to take 45acp, and has had the top strap drilled and tapped for a scope base. The 2nd model was originally designed for the 44 special which has a max cup of 15900, but this one was made for the 455 round which is even milder. The 45acp has a max cup of 19900. Will this gun handle the higher pressure of the 45acp safely? (260gr 455) I note that the 45lc operates at the same max cup of 15900 as the 44 special. Would it be safer to use 45 win mag brass loaded to the specs of the 45lc. That would give the same performance as the 45acp but with the cup still at 15900. I asked the S&W people and their answer was,"buy a new gun". Jerks
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:44 PM
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I would keep the loads very mild in that gun.

The first of the second models actually came about for the 455 specifically.
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Will this gun handle the higher pressure of the 45acp safely?
For awhile. Realize that the cylinder walls are a little thinner than the 44 Sp. The drilling holes in the top strap doesn't add any strength. Also the .455 MkII that was fired in these guns was a lead bullet, not a jacketed one. All in all, if you want something you can stoke up to max, I have to agree with the "jerks" and suggest you find a newer gun that was designed for what you want to shoot.
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:32 PM
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"Would it be safer to use .45 win mag brass loaded to the specs of the 45lc. That would give the same performance as the 45acp but with the cup still at 15900."


Can one know this with certainty without a way to measure pressures? A hand loader could be 10,000 c.u.p. or more over the desired operating pressure and not know it. Only a swollen or split chamber or worse, a burst cylinder will give a clue.

I'm thinking that .45 Winchester Magnum cases are thicker than the common .45 Colt case, giving somewhat reduce case capacity. This must be considered when loading .45 Colt type powder charges. The .45 Winchester Magnum won't fit anyway unless you intending to rechamber it since that case is longer than .45 ACP. It'd be criminal to rechamber the revolver to accept .45 Winchester Magnum ammunition. In future someone could attempt to fire the gun with factory .45 Winchester Magnum ammunition with disastrous results practically guaranteed.

How well was the rechambering job preformed?

While I'd be tickled to prepare handloads for such a gun rechambered to .45 ACP and would be comfortable shooting it, the loads I'd use would be on the mild side of published .45 ACP data. Thirty years ago I chronographed various max .45 ACP loads in M1917 Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers but no longer ever shoot them with heavy loads and I'd trust factory chambered revolvers over rechambering work of unknown origin or quality, especially combined with topstraps sporting extra holes.

Shame about the mutilation of a fine revolver but give it an honored retirement and shoot it with loads that will be easy on it.

Last edited by bmcgilvray; 11-09-2009 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:32 PM
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Well, it's not all doom and gloom. Don't forget that the .455 Webley was the "manstopper round" of the British Army when the Empire was at its zenith. Ok, maybe it's not our beloved .45 ACP, but it's no piker, either.

If you are willing to handload, you can easily duplicate .455 ballistics using .45 ACP cases, keeping the pressure within the original design specs of that revolver. And the good news is that .45 ACP brass (or .45 AutoRim for that matter) is MUCH easier and cheaper to acquire than .455. With full-moon clips, reloading is as fast as with speedloaders.

Of course, I was not present when you spoke w/ the S&W rep, so I don't know his tone of voice, etc., but just because someone doesn't say what you want to hear doesn't mean he's a jerk. He may have honestly thought he was helping you.
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Last edited by Jack Flash; 11-09-2009 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 11-10-2009, 01:05 AM
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I own and enjoy shooting a similarly converted .455 2nd. Interestingly enough, mine shoots better with 230 gr. hardball than .45 Auto Rim 255 gr. SWC. I intend to work up a nice, mild handload and then make that my standard. If I felt the absolute need to hotrod, shoot +P loads, etc. I believe I would sell this old warhorse and look for a blue-worn 25-2 to mutilate.
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Old 11-10-2009, 02:44 AM
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A few free words of advice to consider:

The Webley .455 MkVI of WWI vintage converted to .45 ACP caliber to use with half moon clips has been known to rupture using factory GI ball ammunition. Firing GI .45 ACP ball is the equivalent of firing near-proof pressure .455 lead bullet ammunition. A steady diet of this is sure to destroy the gun.

The S&W HE 2nd model, a contemporary design with cylinder diameter almost exactly the same as that of the Webley MkVI was made with unheatreated cylinders, plus the location of the cylinder locking notch weakens the cylinder wall.

Anyone that wants to continue to fire military ball in these guns is certainly welcome to do as they please, but the number of documented failures is there for anyone to examine.
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:13 PM
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Default 2nd model HE in 455

Thank you very much for your post. I was aware of the limitations of the Webley MKVI converted to 45acp. In fact, I have 2 of them and have reloaded rounds equivalent to the MKII round they were designed for quite successfully. What I was trying to learn was if the captioned revolver was engineered to handle std 45acp rounds as was the model 1917, or if it should be used only with ammo reloaded to the specs of the Webley MKII round. I thought that it might handle the 45lc pressures loaded in the 45win mag case which will fit easily in this revolver without any modification to the cylinder other than that already made to convert it to 45acp as the entire cylinder is bored so you can slide a 45acp shell in the back and out the front. I know that some of these guns were converted to 45lc instead of 45acp back in the day. My thinking was that if the 2nd model HJ was designed to handle the 44 spec cartridge, the pressures of the 45lc cartridge are identical, and could be easily duplicated in the 45 win mag case, and would be substantially lower than pressures of the 45acp cartridge. My idea still seems reasonable to me, but only if the gun was designed to handle the pressure of the 44 special, which was my original understanding. If it was designed only for the Webley MKII cartridge then I am quite familiar with the limitations of that design.
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2nd model, 45acp, cartridge, colt, ejector, hand ejector, m1917, military, model 1917, scope, webley, winchester, wwi

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