I have access to a tremendous amount of Ed McGivern and Walter Groff history in the form of hundreds of original letters, records and photocopies. I've been able to find the following Ed Mcgivern guns and serial numbers listed in either letters, repair tags or other correspondence that can or may link your old relic to him.

Many of you have helped me in the recent past in answering some of my "uneducated" questions and posts about S&W. It is now my turn to return that good will. So I'm going to toss out these serial numbers.

The scavenger hunt/treasure hunt is on.

If you find one, please Private Message me and I can send you a scan of what I have that may link your firearm to Ed McGivern. I apologize if I miss-typed a number, but in many instances, I am working off of 70 year old letters and some poor quality photocopies. In many cases, I just have the caliber and serial number to work from.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,

Jim


Ed McGivern serial numbers in my records:

Colt .45 slip hammer #145735

Colt .38 slip hammer #180426

S&W 2’” unspecified model sighted gun #659175 (dated 1/28/39)

S&W .38 # 642715

S&W unspecified model on repair tag #6146 (Possibly a 357 RM???)

S&W 38/44 5” bbl #37025

S&W 38 #009985

S&W .445 (?) #23703

S&W .38 RP #20652

S&W 357 Registered Magnum #8, Serial # not listed

S&W unspecified model #622758

S&W K-22 633255

S&W 357 Registered Magnum #1001, “To Capt. A.H. Osborn”

S&W 38/44 - 6 ½” bbl, #41896

S&W 38 M&P – 2” #604898 and #626214

S&W 357 Registered Magnum #4115

S&W 357 Registered Magnum #3717

S&W K22 #669805

S&W 22/32 #517719

S&W Registered Magnum # 2393, “for Mr Vagsness”

S&W K22 #669584

S&W 357 Registered Magnum #4163, “To C.F. Knox”

S&W 83/4” Registered Magnum with scope, # 0357, crane #1945

S&W 5” Registered Magnum #2902, #53596

S&W 38 M&P – 2”, #604898

S&W 38 M&P – 2 7/8” bbl - #644924

S&W 38 M&P - 6” bbl, #652445

S&W auto rim 45 5 ½” bbl #181711

S&W regular and auto rim 45 #23703

S&W McGivern Model 38, 5” bbl #37025

High Standard .22 short, Model C, automatic, #1192

Colt SA Army 45, 5 ½” bbl, #5447-3200

Colt SA Army 38, 5 ½” bbl, #354507

Colt DA 38 Lightning, 5” bbl, #125616

Colt PPS 38 Military sight, 4” bbl, #37051

H&R USRA, 10” bbl #2352

H&R (USRA) 7 “ bbl , #2344

Attached photos are:
1) Ed McGivern
2) Ed McGivern, DB Wesson, and Mrs McGivern
3) Walter Groff and Ed McGivern in Montana

Attached Images

	4 x 6 Autographed.jpg (65.1 KB, 420 views)
	McGivern 16.jpg (74.7 KB, 1352 views)
	McGivern 1.jpg (56.6 KB, 501 views)

Jim,

That is a fascinating roster. Thank you for the list. It would be my dream to find one of E.M.'s guns some day.

__________________
David Wilson

Jim, Great input! McGivern's book shows him shooting various registered magnums, some of which are identified by serial number, but most leave that info. out. I've always assumed that the 6 in. RM in the book is the one you list as #1001 for Cap't Osborn, as I believe Ed got the gun from Osborn's widow, perhaps, as his friend, Osborn, died before the book was finished, I understand. Roy can tell us the serial numbers of these RMs you list by RM number, ( I hope!). Ed #15

You picked a great example with RM #1001. It is one of the ones that I have the best documentation on.

I'll attach the scans of it's "birth"....

Wonder where it is now?

Jim

Attached Images

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	Page081.jpg (48.4 KB, 390 views)

Some 25 years ago, or maybe longer, there was a fellow I knew quite well who had a Mcgivern Colt. He showed it off at the local gun store. Had the little plate on the side and everything I was told. He offered it to the NRA museum but they got into a tiff about something and he just sold it to someone locally Cheap as I understand. I never knew he had it until several months later but it was gone by then. Since I did know him well it just made me sick that I let that get away.

BR

Jim-
Many thanks for posting this.
VERY interesting.

If you don't mind, please tell us how you acquired access to this material.
I just find it extremely interesting when history like this surfaces.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee,

My father was married to Walter Groff's niece, Helen. As you probably know, Walter was one of the best friends of Ed McGivern for over 25 years. He was McGivern's friend, shooting companion, understudy and sometimes benefactor. Walter is frequently pictured in McGivern's book.

Walter's wife, Peggy, gave my father numerous items of McGivern's history in the form of 25 years of original correspondence from McGivern, photographs, 16 mm films, numerous holsters and several of his firearms.

My father was also friends with Rex Applegate, who gave my father copies of well over 100 items of McGivern/Wesson correspondence, raw 16mm footage, and other items. Some materials that appear to have come from Roy Jinks (possibly to Rex Applegate) have also surfaced in the collection of the documents.

Whew! Simply stated, it is large collection of McGivern history that has been in my family for 30 years. I'm happy to be able to share some of it.

Jim

Jim & others intersted in McGivern items: Jim Aplan, gun dealer, has a bullet art target he says was shot by Ed McGivern. It is item # 4074 in the 2010 catalog. Webpage is Antiques and Art western cowboy,indian collectible paper ephemera antique paper antiques and art Asking price $2500. The target is an Indian Head, similar to targets shown in McGivern's book, as shot by Al Topperwine, etc. Provnance is only a crayon inscription "Shot by Ed McGivern" however Jim is a straightshooter and has experience in this types of targets. Maybe some of the material in these archives mentions this target? Ed #15

Jim:
Thanks much for posting this info.

As you probably know, "S&W 2’” unspecified model sighted gun #659175 (dated 1/28/39)" is in the NRA National Firearms Museum (#8, see attached) along with S/N: 608894 (#6), another 2" M&P (bobbed) example of his, and many others. All gifts of Mrs. Walter Groff.

What wonderful family heritage you have. I was very fortunate as a young man in Montana to see Ed put on a shooting demonstration at my school, and it made quite an impression on me. Those were the days.

What would we need to do to encourage you to share more with us?

Attached Images

	E McGivern 6 8.jpg (30.9 KB, 272 views)
	E McGivern 4.jpg (50.2 KB, 266 views)

__________________
Mitch
SWCA 2438

Mitch & others,

I'm glad to share what I have. I have been able to digitize about 34 minutes of EdMcGivern/Walter Groff home movies, shot at the Whitmore ranch in Montana. I may be able to post it to YouTube, but it is about 330MB. I'll let you all know if I get that done.

Unfortunately for me, I'll be selling much of my McGivern collection through Amoskeag in March. Three Smiths, one Colt, three H&Rs, photos, and about 18 holsters. But, I guess that's fortunate for those of you wanting McGivern items.

I am holding on to the letters and documentation for now. I'm hoping to donate them to a museum for online access in the near future. The Buffalo Bill Historical Center's online museum or the S&W Historical Assn are leading contenders. I'll be glad to share what I can till then. Anything in particular that would be of interest, just let me know.

Jim

Jim:
Do you have any McGivern timing devices / equipment, or information about his work in this area? My understanding is that Ed McGivern had to develope much of his timing equipment and techniques himself, due to the technical limitations of his day.

I think this aspect of his life shows that he was much more than just a "Fast & Fancy" shooter.

__________________
Mitch
SWCA 2438

Hell Jim,

Thanks very much for posting the information, Ed McGivern is a favorite subject of mine. I'll probably never own one of his guns but have enjoyed his book for many years, I first laid down on the ground with a revolver about 1975 due to reading it and had enough success right off the bat to know it was all very possible with practice. I would be very willing to purchase a copy or two of your video if you make it available for sale.

Keith

I have seen some of his timing equipment on display at the NRA Museum. It was a long time ago before the NRA moved and I have no idea if it was on loan or a permanent part of their collection.

__________________
Len

Peggy Groff donated most of McGivern's timing equipment to the NRA's National Firearms Museum. I had heard that it had even been planned to be borrowed at one point by Jerry Miculek to try to beat some of McGivern's records using the same timing equipment. I don't know if he ever got to borrow it, but a few of McGivern's records were bested.

I do have some of McGivern's letters describing his later advancements in timing equipment (to 1/100 sec). That was quite a feat in itself for the 1940's. I'll see if I can't sort some of them out to post later this week. Using this equipment under McGivern's instruction, two of his understudies were repeatedly able to accomplish a 20/100 second "draw, shoot and hit". One was a mother of two.... McGivern designed a special holster for this quick draw that SD Myres made for him. Photos attached. The back says: “McGivern’s ¼ second holster – Presented to Walter Groff – Oct. 20 - 56”. As you can see, the front of the holster is cut away lower than normal to allow the pistol to clear the holster faster.

I'm going to run the video by Roy Jinks before I post it. I think my father obtained half of it from Jinks and the rest from Rex Applegate. Although I hold the original 16 mm Applegate raw footage films of McGivern, some of it may have been copyrighted when Col Applegate made his Fast and Fancy Shooter video. Something to clear up first. I believe the footage was actually shot by Peggy Groff.

Jim

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Hello Jim:

Thanks for all the info you've posted. Hope you'll provide me a little more... I attended the Amoskeag auction today and was lucky enough to go home with the large framed studio portrait of Ed McGivern - the same image used in your avatar I believe.

Can you provide me any more information about this portrait? It would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Mike

Saber Group, Inc.

Mike,

Ed McGivern and Walter Groff were best of friends for much of their adult life. Well over 20 years. Walter was part of the Electrolux Groff's and helped to finance Ed occasionally. Walter became Ed's understudy and quite a good exhibition shooter also. They would occasionally share or trade guns and other items, such as the target mold in the auction that Ed sent to Walter. They spent quite a bit of time shooting together at the Whitmore's ranch in Montana. I have over 20 years of personal correspondence from them in which they share a tremendous respect for each other. I would venture a guess that the portrait you now have was given to Walter as a show of that respect and thanks for Walter's friendship.

Hope that helps. Take care of the portrait. There are probably very few like it.

Jim

Attached Images

260.jpg (95.9 KB, 650 views)

Thanks, Jim.

And don't worry about the portrait, I understand its significance and I'll take good care of it. I am proud to have it in my collection as I have long admired the man in the photo and know he admired the man he gave it to.

I'm also certain it was difficult for you to part with it and the other items, Jim. Just know that you've allowed me and a few lucky others to have some treasured artifacts that will be enjoyed and valued for years to come.

Please let me know if you're ever up this way (Massachusetts), I'd like to meet you.

Best regards,

Mike

[email protected]

I believe that McGivern's M&P 6-inch target serial 640792 is not listed here. It appears in Roy Jinks' "History of Smith & Wesson." There was an earlier M&P target serial in the 200000s also used by McGivern. I believe Mike Priwer showed some pictures of these two guns in a posting about 1-1/2 years ago.

Sorry you have sell the items but at least everything will go to a good home. The paper items to a museum is also good.

The reason I'm saying this is a friend of mine Mike Stuckslager had a huge collection of S&W paper, guns, books and tons of other stuff. His wife sold most of the good stuff to "collector friends" who said they would take care of her. BS they screwed every which way and several boxes of S&W paper (catalogs, original letters to and from Mr Smith and Mr Wesson and who knows what else) is sitting in the back of a leaky shed on 9th st in Great Falls. The guy who bought it doesn't/didn't even know what he had. I tryed to buy it from him or at least get him to put it in a safe place. He wouldn't sell or move it as it was already buried in the back of the old shed.

I bought several of Mike's books which I found at guns shows for very little money so I know the widow didn't get a fraction of what they were worth. Two serial number 1 guns went somewhere, hopefully to someone who paid a fair price.

Sorry for rant but in the long run it may be a good thing to have the museums and real collectors or at least people who know they are getting end up with it instead of the shysters who suckered his widow.

Thank you for sharing this great bit of American history.

__________________
Mike
USMCR 84-87, USAF 87-07

I don't know if this is still revelent, but I have pictures of my mother training with Ed. I believe that she is the only person living that trained under Ed. I also have a story that my grandfather shared with me that he said that Ed had told him about a couple of trips to see J. Edgar Hoover. One that Ed told him of practicing hitting aspirin tablets, 5 at a time... Mom would know who she sold the .38 that we had. I remember it was engraved above the handles.

Unfortunately, Our friend Mike Stuckslager passed away way too young. It is unfortunate his collection did not pass into better hands.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I am getting in to this conversation late but was very touched while reading through the posts at how much each post is filled with respect and adoration for my Great Great Grandpa Ed. I too wish I could have met him, my father knew him briefly as a young man and had always said that Ed was a generous man with a fantastic sense of humor. For years I have kept an eye out for any of his guns, holsters, timers etc. but am always several thousand dollars short and a day late I have managed to get a copy of his Fast & Fancy book and a few calendars that display his guns but so far I am still on hunt too. Planning to get to the NRA Museum to see his display there, hopefully this next summer.
Kindest Regards to you all, Traci McGivern

Jeez, I was hoping one of my Glocks would be on the list...

Traci

I'm happy that you joined in this thread. I'm wondering about two
things. One, do you know the names of your family members that
trace you back to Ed McGivern, and if so, could you post that chain
here ? And two, do you have any documents at all, that at one point
belonged to Ed McGivern ?

Some of us have copies of various documents, but originals are few
and far between. Ed wrote a lot, to various people, so I'm thinking
about how they might have worked their way down through the family.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Sorry I thought this would have posted automatically to this thread, here it is for anyone interested: Thanks guys!


This is the chain of relation you asked for: My father was Thomas Lee McGivern, adopted by Robert McGivern Jr. son of Robert McGivern Sn. who was the son of Ed McGivern. Robert Jr. adopted my father when he was about 10 years old. There is still 3 great granddaughters (my fathers 3 younger sisters, all blood related to Robert Jr.) living, 2 are in Mt and 1 is here in Wa. I have only a few things that feature Ed but nothing that was personally his nor do my fathers sisters (my aunts.) My father knew Ed and would see him frequently when he was young but Ed passed away when my father was 17. I grew up hearing about him, researching off and on with my Dad, my Dad always said Ed was a "generous man, had a good sense of humor and very dedicated to his work" and that Ed had "a curious mind, always pushing the limits of industry, preferring to blaze his own trail instead of following anyone else", which was evident in his lifetime of work. It's so nice to find so many who truly appreciate and respect his work. Kindest Regards, Traci McGivern

__________________
Go big or go home.

Right now I am looking at my pistol permit list to see if any of numbers match the list. It would be like winning the lottery!

__________________
Vaya con Dios

Think you are missing one from the list.. I will contact you privately...

What a coincidence! I'm in the midst of reading his book for the first time; very interesting book and I get the impression he was a very interesting character, too. Also, very inspirational to all handgunners - he demonstrated what is truly possible.