Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Smith & Wesson Revolvers > S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961

Notices

S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 12-17-2013, 02:00 PM
Bullet Bob's Avatar
Bullet Bob Bullet Bob is offline
US Veteran
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Western NC
Posts: 3,689
Likes: 2,949
Liked 6,544 Times in 1,821 Posts
Default

What is the prize for best thread of 2013?
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 12-17-2013, 02:42 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is online now
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 8,599
Likes: 1,553
Liked 9,328 Times in 4,184 Posts
Default

DaveT, if you came back aboard when this thread was raised from obscurity, could you be so kind as to ask your friend about the MIM technology that has been subject to so much heat and so little light on this and other forums? I for one would love to hear what he has to say, as I am sure we could "take it to the bank!"

Regards,
Froggie
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 12-17-2013, 03:41 PM
Tom K's Avatar
Tom K Tom K is offline
SWCA Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK area
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 1,451
Liked 7,050 Times in 1,579 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullet Bob View Post
What is the prize for best thread of 2013?
You mean for 2009?
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 12-17-2013, 03:43 PM
Dave T Dave T is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 2,556
Likes: 882
Liked 1,719 Times in 549 Posts
Default

Green Frog,

I just found out this old thread was resurrected (who'd a thunk it - lol). He and I have talked about MIM a number of times. I'm not going to try to explain what I've heard him say as some of these conversations go back as much as 10 years. I know he's away from home solving some engineering problem for his company/industry (it's what he does for them) right now. I"ll get in touch when he comes back and see what he can send me about MIM.

Dave
__________________
RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 12-17-2013, 04:37 PM
Llando88's Avatar
Llando88 Llando88 is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Venice FL
Posts: 1,210
Likes: 1,181
Liked 609 Times in 325 Posts
Default

Dang! This is one interesting thread. Allow me to continue to sit here and listen.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:27 PM
Pitdog02's Avatar
Pitdog02 Pitdog02 is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 372
Likes: 19
Liked 124 Times in 41 Posts
Default

Considering that it was commented that 416 stainless is anemic compared to the 41 series low carbon steel, I doubt there will be a politically correct non offensive way to describe the MIM situation. I had a good look at the MIM parts in my 2 J frame scandium 357s during a action/trigger job. I will say you don't have to be an engineer to realize what you were looking at was not quality hand fitted parts or process.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #57  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:48 PM
SweetMK's Avatar
SweetMK SweetMK is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Near Roanoke VA
Posts: 1,732
Likes: 1,025
Liked 2,681 Times in 960 Posts
Default

It is tough to contribute your opinion in a thread such as this without stepping on someones toes.

Materials selection is a difficult process, in almost all cases more than properties MUST be considered.

Yea, we hate to hear it, but cost, and appearance DO come into play.

Then reliability of proper manufacturing processes come into play.

Pick the best material, require a SPECIFIC heat treat, watch manufacturing find a lower cost way of doing that heat treat, the material choice becomes a failure. BTDT -

My BTDT actually involved 17-4 PH, manufacturing "thought" a shorter heat treat, with all the parts stacked in a pile, was adequate.

What did they think, we were killing the bacteria on the surface????

Fool proof material selection typically is the driving force for materials engineers these days, when designing low cost assemblies.

Million dollar jet engines get more careful processes.

MIM is a fact of life to keeping a $600 (wholesale) revolver on the market, along with rubber grips.

IMHO
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:49 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is online now
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,489
Likes: 236
Liked 28,950 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

Unfortunately, what used to be steel is now plastic or MIM. In today's economics, you can't produce a gun in the USA by using the same methods used in 1950. No one could afford them.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #59  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:55 PM
rjb1 rjb1 is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Liked 70 Times in 36 Posts
Default

As an engineering professor I agree that this is really excellent information. It's to some degree a synopsis of two upper-level mechanical engineering courses: "Design of Machine Elements" and "Manufacturing Processes".
What he said is what you hope that the students pick up to the extent possible.
The only slight addition is historical, not technical, and that is that the 8620 chromium, molybdenum, nickel alloy actually pre-dates M-14's and was used in M1 Garands back into the 1930's.
(Also, current-generation ME's are really good at both speaking and writing.)
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #60  
Old 12-17-2013, 07:02 PM
SweetMK's Avatar
SweetMK SweetMK is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Near Roanoke VA
Posts: 1,732
Likes: 1,025
Liked 2,681 Times in 960 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjb1 View Post
(Also, current-generation ME's are really good at both speaking and writing.)
Is this like getting your car fixed?

Your ME can be good at two;

Speaking
Designing
Writing

Pick two!!



I went to college to be an engineer, now I are one.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #61  
Old 12-17-2013, 07:34 PM
G-Mac's Avatar
G-Mac G-Mac is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: CNY
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6,974
Liked 4,813 Times in 1,417 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44wheelman View Post
Crucible Powdered metals recently went bankrupt; a major supplier of the highest grades of composite carbide metals.
If you are referring to Crucible Industries, formerly Crucible Steel, in Syracuse, N.Y.....yes, they went bankrupt, then almost immediately reorganized and opened under the new name. Same people running it. This was maybe 3 or so years ago. A friend of mine works there as a machinist. He has been putting in 60 hour weeks as of late.
__________________
'Merica!
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 12-17-2013, 07:37 PM
G-Mac's Avatar
G-Mac G-Mac is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: CNY
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6,974
Liked 4,813 Times in 1,417 Posts
Default

A Mechanical Engineering Degree is a B.S.M.E...

"Bull-****s Most Effectively".

__________________
'Merica!
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:18 PM
mbliss57's Avatar
mbliss57 mbliss57 is offline
US Veteran
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Desert South West
Posts: 5,540
Likes: 7,356
Liked 8,688 Times in 2,312 Posts
Default

This is very interesting. I work for Precision Cast Parts Corp. which started in the 1950s as an investment company (chain saws) but has grown to a Fortune 200 Company and owns both large forging Companies like Carlton Forge and Wyman Gordan as well as large Investment casting Companies (Precision Cast Parts) NYSE (PCP) Instead of firearms their sole customer is the aerospace industry. I am most familiar with the parts used the aircraft engines. It is interesting to hear people compare forgings vs investment casting as different process for the same purpose when just the opposite is true...at least in the jet engine industry. Forgings
are used in the cool structural sections of the engine but in the hot turbine sections they can only use "super alloys made in vacuum furnaces, casting directionally solidified and single crystal investments blades and vanes. They have high corrosion and heat/ fatigue resistance they cannot get from a forged part. Temps in excess of 2200F. These blades often have intricate cooling passages that allow them to endure these temps. This an application that a forging just cannot achieve as they are cast into the blade via a ceramic core.
So like your friend says..the use of the metal item will more dictate whether it should be forged or cast. Not which is better. They both are depending on the application. For making revolver parts...forging is king.

Edit: just a bit of trivia: the largest 50,000 Ton forging presses are owned by our company in Worcester, Ma and our competitor Alcoa owns the other just down the road here in Cleveland. These date back to the post war era late 1940 early 1950s. The Cleveland press was just rebuilt as it tore it's foundation apart from all the pounding.
__________________
John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Last edited by mbliss57; 12-17-2013 at 11:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #64  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:19 PM
mbliss57's Avatar
mbliss57 mbliss57 is offline
US Veteran
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Desert South West
Posts: 5,540
Likes: 7,356
Liked 8,688 Times in 2,312 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Mac View Post
If you are referring to Crucible Industries, formerly Crucible Steel, in Syracuse, N.Y.....yes, they went bankrupt, then almost immediately reorganized and opened under the new name. Same people running it. This was maybe 3 or so years ago. A friend of mine works there as a machinist. He has been putting in 60 hour weeks as of late.
Did they become part of Gray Syracuse?
__________________
John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 12-17-2013, 09:15 PM
Doug M.'s Avatar
Doug M. Doug M. is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Washington State
Posts: 7,445
Likes: 14,499
Liked 9,264 Times in 3,702 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetMK View Post

Then reliability of proper manufacturing processes come into play.

Pick the best material, require a SPECIFIC heat treat, watch manufacturing find a lower cost way of doing that heat treat, the material choice becomes a failure. BTDT -

My BTDT actually involved 17-4 PH, manufacturing "thought" a shorter heat treat, with all the parts stacked in a pile, was adequate.

What did they think, we were killing the bacteria on the surface????

IMHO
*
Sad and telling points. I have seen more than a few events in professions more to my knowledge in which specs are determined by SMEs, and then either butchered before implementation, or after some period of time, by people who think they know enough, and that the product is still "good enough". Heck, I've seen such in something so pedestrian as trousers and exercise gear.

M29since14 said: "Nowadays, the way some people write about "training" you would imagine they go through 2500 rounds in a year or less." Oh yeah. That's easy. That's not even two "moderate intensity" (instructor's description) carbine courses of 3 days each. If I were still in active LE and had my druthers, a modest 50 rounds a week per platform would be 2500/year each. We shot over 2500 rounds of pistol just in my basic academy.
__________________
NHI, 10-8.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 12-17-2013, 10:41 PM
M29since14 M29since14 is offline
SWCA Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 11,908
Likes: 10,040
Liked 10,049 Times in 4,760 Posts
Default

Yes, thus the Airweight Chief is probably best considered a '60s-era weapon that is still doing its job very well, with a few limitations.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 12-17-2013, 11:08 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
SWCA Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,910
Likes: 3,514
Liked 6,730 Times in 2,621 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
What he said is technically true, but remember: Rugers usually outlast Smiths. Maybe because they're beefier. And their designs are more modern.

And M-66's endure better than M-19's. Stainless alloys have their merit, especially if the gun is often carried in damp conditions.

T-Star
I would have to disagree entirely with the statement that "Rugers usually outlast Smiths."

In the H.P. White Labs testing, if I recall correctly, the supposedly stronger Blackhawk failed before the S&W Model 29. Probably forgings, but I cannot say for sure. The S&W Model 29 did not fail at 80,000 psi, while the Blackhawk cylinder failed at 60,000 psi. Both are way beyond SAAMI safe levels. People think Rugers are stronger because they are thicker. See ad below.

I am not sure exactly what is meant by "outlast" or "endure better" in the post, but if you mean frames and major components damaged from long term firing, this is just plain wrong. If you mean that an S&W might need a tune up more frequently, perhaps, but I am not even sure I am prepared to concede that point.

Either way, I just disagree as do the laboratories. The one point I won't argue is that investment casting is a less costly method of manufacture.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg S&W Ruger Burger ad.jpg (65.9 KB, 183 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #68  
Old 12-18-2013, 12:48 AM
Rick_A's Avatar
Rick_A Rick_A is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Northern GA
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 2,025
Liked 4,842 Times in 1,479 Posts
Default

I think a lot of that lore was born out of the "Ruger only" loads in 45 Colt due to all but New Model Blackhawk and Vaquero models having substantial cylinder wall thickness in that caliber.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 12-18-2013, 12:51 AM
Rick_A's Avatar
Rick_A Rick_A is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Northern GA
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 2,025
Liked 4,842 Times in 1,479 Posts
Default

Aside form the barrel over-torquing issue in some scandiums I've never seen or heard of an Airweight or Airlite frame cracking from fatigue in normal use.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 12-18-2013, 04:24 AM
jaymoore's Avatar
jaymoore jaymoore is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: US of A
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 6,984
Liked 2,474 Times in 1,144 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetMK View Post
It is tough to contribute your opinion in a thread such as this without stepping on someones toes.

Materials selection is a difficult process, in almost all cases more than properties MUST be considered.

Million dollar jet engines get more careful processes.

MIM is a fact of life to keeping a $600 (wholesale) revolver on the market, along with rubber grips.

IMHO
And on "million dollar engines"!
Guess which parts on this 10,000+ RPM rated compressor are cast? Hint: there's a bunch of 'em...



Go on about MIM all you want, but as far as I can tell from actually using them, they perform as well as the old school parts. And just about all the mfgs are using them. Usually without anyone noticing...
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #71  
Old 12-18-2013, 10:28 AM
SweetMK's Avatar
SweetMK SweetMK is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Near Roanoke VA
Posts: 1,732
Likes: 1,025
Liked 2,681 Times in 960 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymoore View Post
And on "million dollar engines"!
Guess which parts on this 10,000+ RPM rated compressor are cast? Hint: there's a bunch of 'em...

Go on about MIM all you want, but as far as I can tell from actually using them, they perform as well as the old school parts. And just about all the mfgs are using them. Usually without anyone noticing...
AHHH,,, but,,,,, those parts in the engine get carefully controlled processes to manufacture.

The members of s-w forum worry that the sintering of their MIM trigger is not perfect, and that the part could fail.

We all want OUR S&W to be perfect. I know I do.

Even with the knowledge gained from this thread, I will still have a passion for stainless steel S&W's,

Worn away bluing puts a on my face, freshly restored holster marks on a SS S&W makes me
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 12-18-2013, 10:39 AM
big&slow big&slow is offline
Banned
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 234
Likes: 302
Liked 143 Times in 63 Posts
Default

Great thread! Learn something every day.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 12-18-2013, 11:45 AM
shocker's Avatar
shocker shocker is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,482
Likes: 550
Liked 1,427 Times in 666 Posts
Default

Then Glock came along and rendered most of this discussion moot.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 12-18-2013, 02:29 PM
gaucho1's Avatar
gaucho1 gaucho1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Farrrrrrrrrr West
Posts: 1,449
Likes: 1,055
Liked 597 Times in 282 Posts
Thumbs up Wrong Name?

mim........................sounds wimpy and vaguely British to my ear.........


Maybe even the name of your favorite stuffed animal...........



How about something that sounds robust and non edible........................



....................how does FORGE sound..............?
__________________
I Love This Site
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #75  
Old 12-18-2013, 02:34 PM
SweetMK's Avatar
SweetMK SweetMK is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Near Roanoke VA
Posts: 1,732
Likes: 1,025
Liked 2,681 Times in 960 Posts
Default

Not enough pics in this thread!!







Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #76  
Old 12-18-2013, 03:35 PM
CptCurl's Avatar
CptCurl CptCurl is offline
SWCA Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Fincastle, VA
Posts: 1,596
Likes: 2,879
Liked 6,282 Times in 910 Posts
Default

Ok, I'm not an engineer. Would someone please be kind enough to tell me what MIM technology is?

I don't know whether to love it or hate it, and my indifference is troubling me!

Thanks for this very interesting thread. I'm glad it got brought back.

Curl
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 12-18-2013, 03:59 PM
TheYoungblood TheYoungblood is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 163
Likes: 7
Liked 45 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Now I feel compelled to speak with someone locally I know that has worked with metals. Now I am curious about the service lives of my past and current guns before they cracked and broke on me...

Thanks for the posts !
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 12-18-2013, 04:06 PM
M29since14 M29since14 is offline
SWCA Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 11,908
Likes: 10,040
Liked 10,049 Times in 4,760 Posts
Default

MIM is an acronym for metal injection molding, roughly. It is primarily used for small, lightweight parts of intricate or complicated design to save machining and finishing since it normally produces parts with fairly good accuracy and surface finish. As was said elsewhere, it is not a love/hate thing, per se. It is more a matter of what is the best process to produce a particular workpiece and is it cost effective. The love/hate thing is people talking about things from an emotional rather than a pragmatic view.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #79  
Old 12-18-2013, 04:08 PM
Maximumbob54's Avatar
Maximumbob54 Maximumbob54 is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,202
Likes: 9,079
Liked 1,921 Times in 1,043 Posts
Default

Say what you will about Ruger and invesment casting but darn near all the custom big bore heavy magnum stuff I see being custom made are all born Blackhawks and Redhawks and hardly any N frames. Still waiting for a .454, .480, or .475 N frame. And before anyone toots about the .460 and .500 those are on the X frame. Just like how the L frame washed away the K frame magnums I think S&W would do well with a L'ed up sized frame in the N frame without going all the way into the X frame madness. With the X frames the proved they can still be the big boy boss but they kind of went too far. Still a great thread to bring back into the light. I doubt I'm the only one that missed it.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 12-18-2013, 04:12 PM
SweetMK's Avatar
SweetMK SweetMK is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Near Roanoke VA
Posts: 1,732
Likes: 1,025
Liked 2,681 Times in 960 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptCurl View Post
Ok, I'm not an engineer. Would someone please be kind enough to tell me what MIM technology is?

I don't know whether to love it or hate it, and my indifference is troubling me!

Thanks for this very interesting thread. I'm glad it got brought back.

Curl
Go into the kitchen, get some corn starch. "Press" it into a shape with enough pressure so that it will not blow away.

Now, you got a shape, but, it is not very strong.

They do the same thing with metal, except, they heat it until the molecules of metal bond together.

The temperature approaches the melting point.

WOOT! Instant parts!!

Sintering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 12-18-2013, 05:12 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is online now
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,489
Likes: 236
Liked 28,950 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

You have described sintering, not MIM. Sintering is as described, where usually a mixture of powdered metals is compacted in a mold to form a shape. Depending upon the desired properties, it may or may not be heated after compaction to bind the particles together more tightly. Part designs are typically fairly simple shapes.

MIM is very similar to injection molding of plastics, but using powdered metal and a binder instead of plastic - it's forced into an intricate mold under high pressure. The mold may produce a very complex part.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 12-18-2013, 05:16 PM
SweetMK's Avatar
SweetMK SweetMK is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Near Roanoke VA
Posts: 1,732
Likes: 1,025
Liked 2,681 Times in 960 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
You have described sintering, not MIM. Sintering is as described, where usually a mixture of powdered metals is compacted in a mold to form a shape. Depending upon the desired properties, it may or may not be heated after compaction to bind the particles together more tightly. Part designs are typically fairly simple shapes.

MIM is very similar to injection molding of plastics, but using powdered metal and a binder instead of plastic - it's forced into an intricate mold under high pressure. The mold may produce a very complex part.
I doubt there is a S&W MIM part that is not sintered.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 12-21-2013, 01:31 AM
mbliss57's Avatar
mbliss57 mbliss57 is offline
US Veteran
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Desert South West
Posts: 5,540
Likes: 7,356
Liked 8,688 Times in 2,312 Posts
Default

I am an engineer.. sintering is the process of heating a material ( metal or ceramic) to the point where its not melting but the very very tiny particles are fusing together. The correct term in the engineering/ Physical chemistry world is "solid state diffusion"..the particles fuse together without ever actually melting. This can be done with heat , pressure or the combination of both. This is not new technology. It has been around in the ceramic world for a hundred years and in metals for decades. The MIM part is a solid state diffused metal part. It is not as strong as a forged part or a cast part. But it is strong enough to do duty work in many applications where it is cheap and easy to manufacture and the failure rate is very low. Hammers or triggers on a gun for instance are a work of art when made of all forged case hardened steel. But the MIM parts will "Usually" last as long as the forged parts because they are NOT stressed like a cylinder or a barrel. Are they as strong as a forged trigger? NO.
My only analogy I can come up with is the steel used in the cars from the 1950's vs the plastic used today on a car. Is it as strong as the steel bumpers of the 1950's? NO. is is adequate for the job it performs. Yes. Does it cost less? YES. Do we all demand that our cars are still made of all steel? Yes if you still look for only 1950/60 vintage cars. No if we look for newer cars.
Then with technology and science advances why do we insist our guns still be made from forged steel? Answer..Because we like them that way, they are stronger and we can afford to buy them...as older or possibly a new custom or PC guns anyway. But the new guns are made with new technology. LEOs use them daily to put their lives on the lines with them. (Now I am rambling into the polymer argument..) My point is the old revolvers of the 50/60s are like the old classic cars from a build/ strength standpoint. They don't make them like that anymore. But they sure are awesome firearms/cars. But the MIM and cast parts are here to stay. You/ we don't have to buy them but they do the necessary job.

EDIT: This link explains the MIM process in a pretty basic way. When/if you read it the reduction of porosity by heat/pressure or both without melting the materials is called sintering. The word PIM is the generic Powder injection molding. The specific MIM is Metal injection Molding.. as in the article.

http://www.pim-international.com/aboutpim/binders
__________________
John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Last edited by mbliss57; 12-21-2013 at 12:47 PM. Reason: add link on article that explains MIM
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #84  
Old 12-21-2013, 02:32 AM
SweetMK's Avatar
SweetMK SweetMK is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Near Roanoke VA
Posts: 1,732
Likes: 1,025
Liked 2,681 Times in 960 Posts
Default

I would bet the forged parts of the "first" versions of S&W's to use them, were not manufactured with that technology with strength in mind.

The forging technology was probably applied because it was a cost reduction from previous technology.

The forging process was a NNS advance, Near Net Shape.

Over time, many NNS processes were implemented, some successful, some less

sand casting
forging
investment casting
MIM
plastics
whatever

We could demand machined billet parts, but, we each would own far fewer guns.
AND the end result may not be as good.

Engineers just love to tinker.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #85  
Old 12-21-2013, 03:43 AM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetMK View Post
I would bet the forged parts of the "first" versions of S&W's to use them, were not manufactured with that technology with strength in mind.

The forging technology was probably applied because it was a cost reduction from previous technology.

The forging process was a NNS advance, Near Net Shape.

Over time, many NNS processes were implemented, some successful, some less

sand casting
forging
investment casting
MIM
plastics
whatever

We could demand machined billet parts, but, we each would own far fewer guns.
AND the end result may not be as good.

Engineers just love to tinker.
No...

Forged Frames, Barrels, internal Parts, were Forged, because that was the most effective method of obtaining the properties/strength/toughness and shapes desired.

Some parts were also Case Hardened once 'finished' ( such as the Hammers and Triggers of the general run of early through mid 20th Century S&W Revolvers, and, the Frames of the Colt SAA Revolvers ).

I do not know about 19th Century S&W Revolver Frames, but, I suspect the Colt SAA and Percussion era Frames were Wrought Iron, and probably many Revolver Barrels were also.

The Springfield 'Trap Door' .45-70, if memory serve, had a Wrought Iron Barrel...as did most everything else Rifle wise, till the advent of Smokeless Propellants occasioned a change to various special Steels.

The methods were not elected because they were less expensive than Casting - Casting would not achieve the desired working properties.

For that matter, most any so called 'billet' is merely the perfunctory CNC Machining of Standard Stock Bar or Rod or whatever, which had been more or less Forged to begin with if via a Rolling Mill...with the difference being, that an intentional Forging of a certain shape item is done to be petty close to shape, while Machining something from Rod or Bar is indifferent to the Forging structures ( if any remain) internally.

All else being equal as for the material one starts out with, a properly made machined Forging will always be a superior item than anything indifferently milled out of 'billet'.

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 12-21-2013 at 03:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #86  
Old 12-21-2013, 05:08 AM
SweetMK's Avatar
SweetMK SweetMK is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Near Roanoke VA
Posts: 1,732
Likes: 1,025
Liked 2,681 Times in 960 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyeboteb View Post
No...

All else being equal as for the material one starts out with, a properly made machined Forging will always be a superior item than anything indifferently milled out of 'billet'.
My response is a guess, as neither of us have the details at to why a manufacturing process was selected at any time in S&W history.

Your response, as is mine, are guesses, the staff that selected forging as a process at S&W are all pushing up daisies.

I agree with your details and knowledge as to why one material is better than the other, but,,,,,,,,,,,, again we are guessing as to why any material and process is selected.

I doubt the inspection techniques were available to fully understand what S&W was doing to parts when forging was starting to be used.

Heck, understanding why hydrogen embrittled steel was being studied in universities in the mid 1970's. (I was there)

Metallurgy as a science rather than an art was in it's infancy in the 1960's.

S&W made the forgings as an art, for cost savings. (My opinion)

Heck, if the guns NEEDED forged triggers and hammers, we would not see the success of MIM.

Many machinists could make a machined trigger successfully.
Many do, and are successful enough to make money.

Machining is a much lower cost technique for low volume manufacturing as compared to forging.

The opposite was true when S&W was high volume making triggers.

As usual this is JMHO, and educated guess.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 12-21-2013, 05:37 AM
Gun 4 Fun Gun 4 Fun is offline
SWCA Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 6,027
Likes: 1,061
Liked 774 Times in 375 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn mccarver View Post
I would have to disagree entirely with the statement that "Rugers usually outlast Smiths."

In the H.P. White Labs testing, if I recall correctly, the supposedly stronger Blackhawk failed before the S&W Model 29. Probably forgings, but I cannot say for sure. The S&W Model 29 did not fail at 80,000 psi, while the Blackhawk cylinder failed at 60,000 psi. Both are way beyond SAAMI safe levels. People think Rugers are stronger because they are thicker. See ad below.

I am not sure exactly what is meant by "outlast" or "endure better" in the post, but if you mean frames and major components damaged from long term firing, this is just plain wrong. If you mean that an S&W might need a tune up more frequently, perhaps, but I am not even sure I am prepared to concede that point.

Either way, I just disagree as do the laboratories. The one point I won't argue is that investment casting is a less costly method of manufacture.
I normally agree with your posts, but here I don't.

Brian Pearce wrote the information in the following paragraph in his excellent article in Handloader #217 "Understanding the .45 Colt". HP White labratories tested the Super Blackhawk in 44 magnum, and it took 80K CUP to destroy it. The Blackhawk in 45 Colt took over 60K CUP to destroy it. At the time the tests were conducted the 44 magnum was still listed by SAAMI at 43,500 CUP.


I have looked for it, but I have yet to find or see any data from HP White (or anywhere else) that shows the M-29 will surpass the Blackhawk in pressure tests, especially regarding the cylinder itself.

The Blackhawk will easily outlast the 29 without needing any major tune-up work. Silhouette shooters proved that time and again a long time ago, and not just with the 300 grain loads everyone worries so much about. The fact that the 29 could not stand up to constant use with full power ammo, and that shooters were starting to spend their cash on other brands was the total reason for the endurance package being introduced.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #88  
Old 12-21-2013, 07:10 AM
Comrad's Avatar
Comrad Comrad is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: New Jersestan
Posts: 3,372
Likes: 1,025
Liked 4,293 Times in 1,636 Posts
Default

I'm glad you broached the subject.
__________________
Back to back World War Champs.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #89  
Old 12-21-2013, 08:17 AM
jfp357 jfp357 is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Westfield,Ma
Posts: 92
Likes: 126
Liked 21 Times in 17 Posts
Default

As a young (very young) man I worked at S&W in Springfield,Ma. I watched the broaching operation many times. The most experienced machine operators did the work. I am NOW impressed with the process I watched, after reading this forum.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #90  
Old 12-21-2013, 08:39 AM
Rick_A's Avatar
Rick_A Rick_A is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Northern GA
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 2,025
Liked 4,842 Times in 1,479 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shocker View Post
Then Glock came along and rendered most of this discussion moot.
Well, when Glock starts making double action revolvers that may become relevant here.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 12-21-2013, 09:59 AM
BigBill BigBill is offline
Absent Comrade
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 13,869
Likes: 2,079
Liked 13,353 Times in 5,549 Posts
Default

I build a cnc lathe to machine the m1Abrams main engine rotor which is titanium. The machine they purchased from Japan couldn't handle cutting this metal. The tooling to cut the rotor was $250k in the early 80's. The federal inspector also witnessed a horse power cut we did on all the machines for the oil industry. We took a one inch wide cutter and drove it into a steel billet till we got the amperage rating and horse power from the motor running the machine. The curly q's came off the billet sounded like machine gun rounds hitting the guards. The inspector seen this and went wild about what a Bullard machine could do. These machines could hog yet hold tolerances to the millionths.

Stelite is used in making exhaust valves in engines. It can take the heat yet also take the gas we use today. We removed the materials that cushion the valves when they hit the seats like the lead. With these engines running hotter today to get the emissions better probably both valves are stellite now. My valve grinder needed special grinding wheels for stelite valves. The standard grit wheels couldn't touch this harder steel.

Last edited by BigBill; 12-21-2013 at 10:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 12-21-2013, 10:59 AM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is online now
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,489
Likes: 236
Liked 28,950 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetMK View Post
I doubt there is a S&W MIM part that is not sintered.
MIM involves heating after forming from powdered metal, but the actual MIM process is substantially different from sintering.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 12-21-2013, 12:33 PM
JDBoardman JDBoardman is offline
US Veteran
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arlington, Texas
Posts: 434
Likes: 150
Liked 582 Times in 218 Posts
Default

Broaching is a really cool process. We use it extensively in turbojet and turbofan engine manufacture. Each turbine, compressor and fan disk may have as many as 72 broached slots around the perimeter to hold the blades. Since the major loads on the blades are in a circumferential direction, using fasteners to hold the blades won't work, and since the blades are removable for economic overhaul of the engines, some method of positive location and retention is necessary. Hence, a Christmas tree-shaped broached slot for each blade, and a matching fir tree-shaped root on the blade. The complexity of the slots mean that broaching is the only feasible fabrication method.

The blades themselves are investment cast, so complex shapes are not too difficult to make. Again, the stress loads are axial along the blade, and are also complicated by high temperature creep, heat-accelerated corrosion, erosion, etc. Special nickel superalloys are used, since, as your friend indicates, a collection of various properties need to be considered to achieve the optimum results. In addition, specialized cooling processes are used in the casting process to achieve axially oriented solidification, or, ultimately, single-crystal solidification. These parts are not typical investment castings, and the properties desired are achieved by both alloy composition and cooling/solidification processes. (and, as an 'oh by the way... S&W Forgings make certain specialized small parts for us, so they are still in the forging business).

(edit for Mbliss57 - did Wyman shut down the 50K ton press they had in Houston? We used (2000-2001) to make Offshore Platform Risers [40' long, 36" diameter, 4" wall] from titanium mults and CFM56-3, -5 and -7 fan disks from Ti 6-4)

Last edited by JDBoardman; 12-21-2013 at 12:52 PM. Reason: add info
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #94  
Old 12-21-2013, 12:49 PM
mbliss57's Avatar
mbliss57 mbliss57 is offline
US Veteran
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Desert South West
Posts: 5,540
Likes: 7,356
Liked 8,688 Times in 2,312 Posts
Default Good article explaining MIM

I posted this in an edit but many like me don't often reread old posts.
The MIN process explained. There are even Pics!!

http://www.pim-international.com/aboutpim/binders

Mike
__________________
John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 12-21-2013, 01:30 PM
mbliss57's Avatar
mbliss57 mbliss57 is offline
US Veteran
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Desert South West
Posts: 5,540
Likes: 7,356
Liked 8,688 Times in 2,312 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDBoardman View Post
Broaching is a really cool process. We use it extensively in turbojet and turbofan engine manufacture. Each turbine.....
(edit for Mbliss57 - did Wyman shut down the 50K ton press they had in Houston? We used (2000-2001) to make Offshore Platform Risers [40' long, 36" diameter, 4" wall] from titanium mults and CFM56-3, -5 and -7 fan disks from Ti 6-4)
JD.. I was not aware WG had a 50K ton forge press in Houston. I was told (by colleagues at WG) they only had the one at WG in Worcester, MA and 1 at Alcoa in Cleveland. (I have seen the one in Cleveland) I will research it. If you used it.. it must be there. The 2 up North were made under USAF contract right after the WWII when Americans found a destroyed 50K ton press in post nazi Germany. Both have been rebuilt since.
Do you still work for WG?

Edit: I was wrong about the MA location. The 50K ton press at Wyman Gordan is in N Grafton MA not Worcester. The one in Houston is a 35K ton press.
Wyman Gordon Forging Companies | Wyman Gordon Grafton Forging Operations

I wonder what the largest press S&W uses on it revolvers?

Mike
__________________
John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Last edited by mbliss57; 12-21-2013 at 01:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 12-21-2013, 01:58 PM
Doug M.'s Avatar
Doug M. Doug M. is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Washington State
Posts: 7,445
Likes: 14,499
Liked 9,264 Times in 3,702 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrad View Post
I'm glad you broached the subject.
*
Hahaha. I see what you did there.
__________________
NHI, 10-8.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 12-21-2013, 03:19 PM
Abwehr Abwehr is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Being an engineer myself, I have followed this thread closely and agree with most areas of firearms manufacture from the correct steel, aluminum, and various alloys. Then which is best forgings, casting, MIM, etc.

But, what about some of the latest aluminum alloy with Lithium. I know Li-Al is know the world over, but there are some "recipies" of Al-Li that is proprietory and have the ability to reach 50-60 kps. The material being lighter and stronger than other aluminum alloys. The only problem with the strength is that it is in one direction. What are the thoughts from other with Li-Al in firearms?
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 12-21-2013, 06:34 PM
jaymoore's Avatar
jaymoore jaymoore is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: US of A
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 6,984
Liked 2,474 Times in 1,144 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDBoardman View Post
Broaching is a really cool process. We use it extensively in turbojet and turbofan engine manufacture. Each turbine, compressor and fan disk may have as many as 72 broached slots around the perimeter to hold the blades. Since the major loads on the blades are in a circumferential direction, using fasteners to hold the blades won't work, and since the blades are removable for economic overhaul of the engines, some method of positive location and retention is necessary. Hence, a Christmas tree-shaped broached slot for each blade, and a matching fir tree-shaped root on the blade. The complexity of the slots mean that broaching is the only feasible fabrication method.
Couldn't find a good christmas tree photo right quick, but these slots are likely broached as well. (Photo taken during initial set up of a spline check for re-establishing the indiron mark.)


Bringing things back a ways, we talked to some of the old Curtiss engineers and they stated that the main reason that they forged many parts was just to increase production. It was quicker to produce near net shape parts using this process than any other available at the time and still have reasonably light weight components. Nuances of refined grain structure, etc. were of secondary concern, and if other methods had been availablr, they would have used them! Very un-nostalgic fellows. No reason to assume S&W was any different. They just had no pressing reason to modernize for quite a spell.

A NOS P40 fuselage lower longeron attach forging and my tracer mill billet "in process" new production parts which are currently flying:

Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #99  
Old 12-21-2013, 10:47 PM
Black_Talon's Avatar
Black_Talon Black_Talon is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SoCal - SGV
Posts: 470
Likes: 280
Liked 130 Times in 49 Posts
Default

Didn't we have these MIM pro/con discussions ad-nauseam a few years back? Does this need to be rehashed?
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 12-21-2013, 11:29 PM
SweetMK's Avatar
SweetMK SweetMK is offline
Member
An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W. An Engineer's take on S&W.  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Near Roanoke VA
Posts: 1,732
Likes: 1,025
Liked 2,681 Times in 960 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Talon View Post
Didn't we have these MIM pro/con discussions ad-nauseam a few years back? Does this need to be rehashed?
It is either re-hash, or discuss retirement benefits!!

Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
Reply

Tags
1911, 317, 357 magnum, colt, commander, endurance, kimber, m60, military, model 14, model 16, model 60, model 66, n-frame, postwar, ruger, s&w, scandium, sig arms, sile, titanium, trooper

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTS: Engineer from Smith & Wesson blueprints, sketches, equations..ext LewisFamilyFirearms Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 0 03-07-2015 11:30 PM
Lockheed-Martin Engineer met aliens Coldshooter The Lounge 23 11-03-2014 11:06 PM
The Engineer trebor127 The Lounge 22 05-06-2014 12:07 PM
Thanking Blujax and Engineer rwsmith Feedback 0 11-04-2013 10:08 PM
WTT Gerber EOD/Engineer tool for K sq wood finger groove grips or?? GatorFarmer Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 0 06-26-2011 10:49 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:59 PM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)