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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #51  
Old 03-13-2010, 05:07 PM
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Great thread! The old HD's and OD's are magnificent pieces. They were the hot-rods of their day, and all that metal made it comfortable to shoot them with the "pre-magnum magnum" loads. If you don't believe it, try a comparison for yourself. Shoot a Mod. 60 .357, and then a Mod. 27 with the same loads (say, 158gn JSPs moving 1100fps). That will make you a believer real quick.

Some beautiful revolver pics posted here, folks. Thank you for sharing.
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  #52  
Old 03-13-2010, 06:57 PM
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Most of the discussion on the Heavy Duty has focused on it's ability to handle heavier loads, but I wonder if the name doesn't explain a lot of the gun's appeal to law enforcement. Law enforcement equipment (cars, clothing, gear, etc.) is typically built for hard continuous use and frequently heavy duty is used to describe the way it is built. Certainly the S&W would logically be described that way because it is built to last and to perform under severe conditions. The gun's construction would allow it to survive being dropped, being used as a club, and to still perform for years.
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:51 AM
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Good point, n4zov. For folks that depend on a revolver as a tool of their trade (and perhaps to preserve lives), having one that is built to withstand use, abuse, and wallops year in and year out and still maintain accuracy and reliability would be a huge plus. Whatever round it fires. Of course, having the ability to fire ammo that could reliably get through car doors and windshields wouldn't hurt either....
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Old 11-18-2014, 09:25 AM
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Old thread, but just reviewed it. I'm convinced that it is regional, as I have seen 15-20 1917s for 1 HD/OD here in Tennessee. Secondly, a matter of economics. K frame 38s and plain old 38 lead bullet loads were cheaper.
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Old 11-18-2014, 09:54 AM
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To add my two cents:

The hd needs no reason, like the ladysmith its a gun that is just delightful for what it is.

Sometimes just loving something is enough. HDs are charismatic, fun, beautifully made guns. I'd happily have a large pile of them and regret nothing.
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  #56  
Old 11-18-2014, 09:58 AM
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After reading some of your posts in this almost 5 year old thread and another current thread, it seems like you really despise the 38-44 Heavy Duty.

Different strokes for different folks. That's why they make chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry

Thank you for resurrecting this thread, as there are some beautiful examples shown.
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  #57  
Old 11-18-2014, 10:58 AM
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No one has yet mentioned the real reason for the .38-44 - N-frame pairing: MASS. If it's a given that the higher bullet velocity of the .38-44 is desirable for whatever purpose is to be accomplished (such as penetrating an auto body), that choice comes with a penalty. That penalty is recoil, the consequence of which is loss of control and increased recovery time for follow-up shots, just a law of physics. The only way to overcome that recoil is to add more mass to the gun, which is exactly what the N-frame does. .38-44 rounds could be safely fired in any .38 Special revolver of the time, including the S&W K-frame and the Colt Police Positive Special - and were. They didn't blow up the smaller revolvers, but the recoil was too ferocious for most shooters to handle. The Remington ammunition catalogs of the day contained no warnings about the safety hazards of firing .38-44 ammunition in an "ordinary" .38 Special revolver (because there weren't any), but they did warn that doing so would result in "excessive recoil." And there you have it.

That additional mass, at least for police use, also was beneficial when the revolver was used for purposes other than shooting.

Last edited by DWalt; 11-18-2014 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:03 PM
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I have an accumulation of Smith and Wesson revolvers which covers most all versions of their production over the years. And, I have a habit of keeping one on the table next to my lounge chair where I sit to watch television, mostly Gunsmoke and Cheyenne, plus various other western shows. Since I grew up in the 40's I think of them as "cowboy" shows! I cut my teeth on Gene and Roy at the local movie house which charged us kids 11 cents to watch the Saturday morning movies! Fond memories in my old age! One of my two favorites is a Mod.15 but the one that spends the most time on that table is a 5" HD from 1952! It's in very good shape, but not a collectable gun because the cylinder has been replaced. Also, I have replaced the original stocks with a pair of targets because they just fit my hand better. With this gun so handy, I do a lot of dry firing at a clock face about 15 feet across the room. Aiming a gun at a $1,100 TV makes me nervous! I also shoot this gun quite a bit on the range out back. It's very accurate, considering the sights. It shoots about an inch to the right with my favorite handload, but I'm used to that and hold off that much. It's a good shooter and great fun! It's hard to beat an HD!
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  #59  
Old 11-18-2014, 02:57 PM
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Very interesting thread! I have to wonder if the same traits that made the .38-44 effective for punching holes in car bodies made it a poor stopper when there wasn't a barrier involved?


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  #60  
Old 11-18-2014, 03:57 PM
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Down here, the .357 is illegal and even possessing a single cartridge would be a ticket to jail at a Police or Military Roadblock. The .38 Special is King of the hill as it's the most powerful revolver/pistol cartridge civilians in Mexico are allowed to own (no, you cannot have a .38 Super and never could after 1974. Any registered before that time were "grandfathered" but cannot be resold. Sad, but since they were registered "they" know where they are.).

The .38 Heavy Duty/Outdoorsman series are the most powerful handguns we can legally own. Most are loaded with a 160 grain SWC at around 1,200 fps and they get used a lot. We have had no problems with such loadings and ejection is "one thumb ejection" so the pressure is not that bad if I had to give my opinion on it. Elmer Keith's "Heavy Duty load" of a 358429 bullet and 13.5 grains of 2400 gets you a little above 1,300 fps from a 4-inch Heavy Duty and ejection is still "one thumb". It's the most powerful loading used around here, and is not used in general practice. It's the load ("the load") kept handy in case of motorized bandits on the drive to-and-from the range in almost all cases though.

The Heavy Duty revolvers are often found at Model 10 prices as many owners who want to sell them do not know what they have. Mexican guns are generally not well kept in terms of finish or original grips but the bores and actions are often fine. My own Heavy Duty dates from the mid-1950's and cost me about 500.00 U.S. or a little less. It's my pride and joy.

Photo: My Heavy Duty with my son's Model 10-5. The Heavy Duty using Elmer's load is about 15% more powerful than a 4 inch .357 using a 158 grain lead .357 factory load as they make them today. The .38 Model 10 is still just a .38 Model 10. We here cannot do any better than this, but it happens to be good enough.

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  #61  
Old 11-18-2014, 04:36 PM
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So, I bought my first S&W, a Model 19 P&R 4" in 1980. My second was a M10-7 2" in 1981. Over the years I bought another one here, another one there, and soon I had more S&W revolvers than I ever really contemplated, not counting the loss of my first one when I blew it up. At any rate, it was a neat, little collection, a nice "collection" compared to the rest of my gun collection of a host of various guns, long and short guns of assorted calibers. Time went by, I picked up another S&W a time or two.......and then one day I noticed this rather large, unusual revolver at my LGS. What is THAT? It's not a Colt SAA, it's not a typical S&W......maybe I looked at it. Maybe 6 months later I looked at it again. This time I asked and got a brief explanation and, of course, if you want to know why the HD was created you can just read the details in this thread. But I got some of them that day.......hmmmm......

The guys at the LGS know my taste in guns and seriously recommended that I buy it. How long I took I do NOT know but I do know the gun didn't go home with me right away. Then, one day, it did!

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So, I don't take the best pictures in the world, sorry, but what that .38-44 HD started was a sudden buying spurt of S&W revolvers and after the Model 19 2.5" was acquired the LGS owner suggested I join the SWCA and the rest is history. And a bunch more S&W handguns.

I don't know what they liked or didn't like in Appalachia but I don't begin to guess what folks do there, I'm a big city boy with a love of the country but Appalachia AIN'T the same as "everwhar" else so I don't begin to compare Appalachian tastes in anything with my own. But I can tell you this - I have a lot of guns but it was an easy decision to put that big .38-44 into my personal site on this Forum and to make it my avatar.

My research says it's circa 1931 or 1932; I'll letter it one of these days. Lotsa bullets'll go plumb raht threw ya podnuh but the .38-44 wasn't designed to go through a man, it was designed to go through a car. Among other things.

Some of those cars came hurtling right out of Appalachia - the revenooers noo whut they needed to git the moonshiners.....

Jus' sayin'........

LOVE MY HD!!!!

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  #62  
Old 11-18-2014, 05:58 PM
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I have owned and shot quite a few .38s in my days, but my favorites are the HD and OD. I hope to own a 5 in. pre-war HD someday.
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  #63  
Old 11-18-2014, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by wbraswell View Post
I have owned and shot quite a few .38s in my days, but my favorites are the HD and OD. I hope to own a 5 in. pre-war HD someday.
Wayne, if you're in DFW you can shoot my 5" pre-war HD anytime!

But, no, afraid it's not for sale.......maybe my estate will sell it - how young are you???

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  #64  
Old 11-18-2014, 10:29 PM
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I think they're beautiful. I love N-frames with tapered barrels. Something about those lines does it for me.

I suppose there's nothing wrong with the .32-20, but I have zero interest in reloading a bottleneck pistol round. Plus I don't think it can be loaded to peak performance in an HE.
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Old 11-19-2014, 08:08 AM
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Well, they just didn't sell in Appalachia. People Around Here would get a .32-20 and shoot the HV "rifle only" loads in them. That, or the dirt-cheap BP stuff. You could get BP .32-20 long after BP .38 Spl's went out. And .32-20s were always cheaper at the feed store than .38 Specials. You'd never see anything in .38 Spl's but the standard old 158gr at the co-op or whatever hardware store you bought stuff at. If somebody got a HD, they'd see it shoot and go "paf!" next to the "rifle only" .32-20s from the co-op bucking and thundering out of Police Positives and 1905s and so would think the .32-20 shot harder. That 38-44 I saw up in Jonesborough stayed there for several years; the shop had a hard time selling it because it was "only a .38". More I think about, more I think it's reigonal. That and I cut my teeth on Elmer Keith's work...
Hate to tell you this, Dave, but you are considered to be part of Appalachia.

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But you don't mind "killing time", eh?
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Old 11-19-2014, 09:10 AM
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I know, Muley. I have seen one HD and one OD in the wild in 20+ years of collecting. Can't recall anyone on the Forum posting one that letters to TN, NC, VA, or GA either. I'm convinced the N - frame 38 is a regional thing.
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Old 11-19-2014, 02:21 PM
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Let me take another run at my "massive .38 Special" statement.

Yes, the original .38-44 load was hot -- almo

When the .357 was introduced, that cartridge and the extra velocity .38-44 cartridge continued as almost equally powerful revolver rounds through the 1930s. My sense is that after WW2, the hotter .38-44 special and super police loads faded from the scene as the heavy-hitting market migrated to the .357 Magnum. At some point diminishing availability or appeal of the .38-44 ammo meant that HD and OD revolvers were left with standard .38 Special ammunition as their primary feed, except that handloaders who could produce the more powerful loads continued to do so.

At that point, and regardless of their design origins, the HD and OD became in a commercial sense heavy-frame .38 Specials, which is the cartridge designation that was always pressed into their barrels, and which is how I talked about them in my earlier post. I still think that is a fair characterization of their later lives -- though obviously their early lives were far different.

Well, first, your assertion that the 38-44 loadings disappeared after WWII is, by your own admission, based on "thumb in the wind" analysis. I can't speak to the .38-44 load, but the Peters "Hi-Way Master. .45 ACP load, which filled the the same niche as the .38-44, stayed in production from 1930-1960.

Second, magnums were quite expensive at a time when the majority of LEOs probably still had to provide their own sidearm. Even if their dept did provide one, many probably upgraded from the issued .38 spl. The .38-44 was far more affordable.

There weren't a lot of magnums in circulation prior to WW II and certainly few to none produced during the war. From Skeeter Skeltons writings, I gleaned that as late as the mid-50s, magnums were still expensive and hard to come by. Due to cost, probably a scant few agencies issued them, once again leaving the LEO to fund it himself.

Finally, and probably the biggest reason, was the incredible demand for civilian guns (including LEOs) following WW II. Virtually no guns had been made for the civilian market during the war. Gun companies had just lost massive military contracts and had to start selling guns fast to survive. They likely didn't spend time or money re-tooling and built whatever they had the tooling and resources for, and do so quickly. For S&W, this probably meant they were still geared to crank out way more .38-44s than .357s.
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:25 PM
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Did the .38-44 have the same case length as a .38 special ?
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:35 PM
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Mexican gun forums are openly monitored by the Mexican Army, so you won't find much conversation going on about "Heavy Duty" loadings. Quite a few Mexican shooters refer to this forum for information -- although they rarely post as they feel their English might not be up-to-snuff. (For some reason, Saxon Pig has his own mini-fan club which irritates me no end.)

Heavy Duty loadings in common use by the San Miguel/Queretaro IPSC Club (Sam-Qro IPSC) may be of interest to you. Our Heavy Duty loadings are loaded into .38 Special cases of whatever make is handy but Aguila is very common. Primers are painted red with a felt-marker so as to instantly distinguish a Heavy Duty loading from a normal .38 Special loading. We have had no accidents. You should be aware that some water-based felt markers will over-time end up gunking up your firing pin hole in the frame with red gunk that you should clean out with a Pipe Cleaner after firing.



I am sitting in sunny and warm central Mexico right now as I type this (in my Ice Cream store) so the usual warnings about starting about 10% lighter than what I list and working up apply only from the point-of-view of good common sense rather than some vague civil-liability clause. But you should start light and work up because individual guns vary as we have seen. (We have a Model 27-2 with factory cylinder that sticks and craters some of these loads although is perfectly fine with the Elmer Keith load. Guns vary.) Make sure to mark those primers red when loading in .38 Special cases even if you shoot alone. You might drop a round, and the red primer at least gives whoever finds it a fighting chance. We have no choice but to use .38 Special cases as a .357 casing is not worth going to a Mexican jail over. Don't use these loadings in regular .38 Special revolvers. They are too hot, or certainly might be. They are loaded and intended for use in .38 Special Heavy Duty, Outdoorsman, and .357 Revolvers.

When I say 160 grain bullet, I mean the Lee 160 grain tumble-lube SWC bullet which is almost ubiquitous here in Mexico because everyone can tumble-lube but not everyone has a lubrisizer press. Any reasonable facsimile bullet substitute would do up to and including the Lyman 358429.

Bullet: Powder: Charge: Velocity fps (4-inch H.D.)

160 Lee SWC 2400 13.5 gr. 1,320 - 1,340
160 Lee SWC 2400 13.0 gr. 1,280
160 Lee SWC 2400 12.5 gr. 1,220
160 Lee SWC 2400 12.0 gr. 1,150

160 Lee SWC Green Dot 7.2 gr. 1,180
160 Lee SWC Green Dot 7.0 gr. 1,140

160 Lee SWC Blue Dot 8.5 gr. 1,190
160 Lee SWC Blue Dot 9.0 gr. 1,240
160 Lee SWC Blue Dot 9.5 gr. 1,280 (Hot! Beware.)

160 Lee SWC Unique 7.5 gr. 1,230

160 Lee SWC Red Dot 6.0 gr. 1,150
160 Lee SWC Red Dot 6.2 gr. 1,180

160 Lee SWC Bullseye 6.2 gr. 1,180

168 gr. Keith 2400 13.5 gr. 1,300 - 1,320
Lyman # 356429

We have been doing some very interesting experiments with 200 grain bullets, including the Lyman 195 grainer, the Saeco 200 grainer and the excellent Accurate Molds 200 grain SWC bullet but I will write about those when we have more data. However, I will say that getting a 200 grain SWC up to 875 fps for an IPSC Power Factor of 175 gives you a felt-recoil from a Heavy Duty of about the same as a 158 grain factory .38 Special load out of a K-38. (Picture Clint Eastwood telling four rookie cops "I use a 200 grain Heavy Duty Special, out of this size gun it gives me the same recoil as a Combat Masterpiece with wadcutters" and you're watching the Hollywood version of the reality.) The Saeco "spaceship" and Accurate Molds SWC -- both 200+ grainers -- are notably bigger than the 160 grain Lee TL. But that's all for another installment.




The Elmer Keith/Lyman bullet 358429 which can weigh anywhere from 166 to 173 grains depending on who made your mould and your bullet mix is used with 13.5 grains of 2400 powder to make our most powerful Heavy Duty loading. It's about 15% more powerful than a modern day Factory .357 158 grain LSWC loading, and it's enough. Most of our "general use" and competition or practice loadings are not so hot. Still, this loading gives you "one-thumb" ejection so I don't consider it too hot. But she's all you'll need and you can certainly do with less for just fun-and-games.



My own 4-inch Heavy Duty is unrefinished and except for some paint on the sight is in the condition I bought it. When it came the original stocks were gone and Goodyears were in place. "A friend of the Club" -- to use Sons of Anarchy speak -- provided me quickly with a proper set and the Tyler-T came in the mail rather quickly which surprised me.




This 5-inch Post War is a classic Mexican IPSC revolver. Many Mexican guns have rough external finishes and a gunsmith in Mexico City offers the QPQ finish (through the diligent work of Forum member Tadeus who found the guy) and seeing Heavy Duty revolvers finished thus on the range is not uncommon.


We have a long barrel Model 27-2 in the Club that gives us about 1,420 fps using the Elmer Keith load with "one thumb" ejection and yet sticks and craters some primers on some of the other loads listed (particularly the Green Dot loading) and it MAY be a headspace problem. We're going to look into that but right now we know the revolver does it and it's owner loads it down a bit when using faster-burning powders. Thus: start lighter, work up. Please.

Last edited by calmex; 11-19-2014 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:01 PM
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Well, the regional nature of the HD is becoming more and more apparent.

While to a contemporary of Alvin York, a HD would seem like an extravagance given the ready availability of black powder .32WCF at literally almost any dry goods store, and .38-44 Super Police ammo that would require a trip to a Knoxville size city to get, apparently out West people saw some advantage to it.
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:47 PM
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I'll add to calmex's observations about the Keith load: it is wicked accurate using the 358429 cast from quenched wheel weights.

Loading it in .38 special cases has the advantage of allowing it to be crimped in the crimp groove. Load that bullet in a .357 case and you'll likely have to crimp over the front driving band. The combination of the case & long bullet will make the round too long to chamber in a .357 if crimped in the groove.

Even loaded in .357 cases, I add 1 grain of 2400 and it's still extremely accurate.
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:04 PM
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POD,
I'll check and see if any HDs went to the states listed. I have a pre war that went to Charlottesville Hardware Co in my home town. So you can check that on off. I can remember the Durham PD carrying them. More when I get home.
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:06 PM
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POD
I had a pre war that was shipped to Rome VA. Now to find one shipped to TN.
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:06 PM
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Rome, GA.

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Old 11-19-2014, 06:49 PM
Plain Old Dave Plain Old Dave is offline
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Charlottesville is just Southern Maryland. Durham is a big city, too. I stand by what I said, though, in that N frame 38s were seen as a wasteful extravagance in Appalachia. This is where people would only buy 6 shells for a new revolver, and buy replacements 1 at a time. I have a correction- forgot about the third one. 6 1/2" HD with added adjustable sights in Lenoir City. Nice gun, but has been at the shop for 2-3 years.

Last edited by Plain Old Dave; 11-19-2014 at 06:55 PM.
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  #76  
Old 11-19-2014, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpage View Post
Did the .38-44 have the same case length as a .38 special ?
Yes. The case is exactly the same, just a much heavier powder charge than the normal .38 Special loadings. The barrels of the N-frame .38-44s were caliber-stamped as ".38 S&W Special CTG," not .38/44.
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Old 11-19-2014, 09:55 PM
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Default Killin' time!

Muley,
Killing time is about all I do anymore! Been retired over 17 years, now! I could replace the clock for about $50, but I wouldn't want to have to replace that TV, yet!
I developed the habit of not pointing a gun at the TV years ago. Makes me think of pointing at real people, makes me nervous.
By the way, of my two HDs, One is lettered to 1935, my birth year, and as I recall shipped to Colorado. The other was shipped in 1952 to Ohio, I think? Have to dig out the letter to make sure. Both are five inchers.
Dick

I was wrong. The 1952 gun was shipped to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago.


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Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
Hate to tell you this, Dave, but you are considered to be part of Appalachia.

Reddog said, "...I do a lot of dry firing at a clock face about 15 feet across the room. Aiming a gun at a $1,100 TV makes me nervous!"

But you don't mind "killing time", eh?

Last edited by Reddog; 11-20-2014 at 11:29 AM. Reason: correction
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:06 PM
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"Well, first, your assertion that the 38-44 loadings disappeared after WWII is, by your own admission, based on "thumb in the wind" analysis. I can't speak to the .38-44 load, but the Peters "Hi-Way Master. .45 ACP load, which filled the the same niche as the .38-44, stayed in production from 1930-1960."

The .38-44 cartridge (AKA Remington Hi-Speed .38 Special) made its last listing in Remington's ammunition catalog of 1973. The "Hi-Way Master" (.38 Special and .45 ACP) is an entirely different cartridge made for piercing auto bodies. It uses a lightweight zinc alloy bullet at high velocity. The same niche as the .38/44? I'm not sure I would describe it that way.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:39 PM
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POD- Mephis PD pre war HD. So they did go to all the states you mentioned.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:03 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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Given the price of the RM in 1935, a shooter interested in a powerful revolver might be better off to buy a pair of HDs and plenty of ammo. I agree that as the ammo began to disappear, the usefulness of the HD as a defense gun lessened as the ordinary 38 Special worked fine in the lighter Model 10.

These days, even a person who does not reload can enjoy the 38/44 loading by obtaining the Buffalo Bore "Outdoorsman" load. Fire a few in your J frame or Colt Police Positive, and you can get an idea of what the FBI was using in 1933.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:15 PM
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The earlier 1950s Lyman reloading manuals provided recipes for .38-44 factory duplication loads as 12.0 to 12.5 grains of 2400 and a 158 grain lead bullet. Seems to me to be a formula for quick bore leading, but I guess it worked. I did some research using an internal ballistics computer program awhile back, and found that 2400 is the ideal canister propellant to use for .38-44 level reloads to achieve maximum velocity at minimum chamber pressure.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:35 PM
Plain Old Dave Plain Old Dave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Aspenhill View Post
POD- Mephis PD pre war HD. So they did go to all the states you mentioned.
We generally don't acknowledge Memphis here. People from around here will firmly and politely correct you if you mention you like Tennessee. We're not from Tennessee. We're from East Tennessee.

And I stand by my original theory, based on fairly thorough research.

In Southern Appalachia (Eastern KY, East TN, SW VA, and Western NC) the HD was seen as a needless extravagance that could accomplish nothing a considerably less expensive Military and Police could. We had no gangsters shooting up banks in these parts, and no real need for a pistol that could shoot through cars. The few peace officers that carried N-frames carried .44s (interestingly, a LOT of "company men" as the coal company security people were sometimes called seemed to be VERY fond of .44 Specials in the Depression era) or surplus 1917s, and the vast majority carried K-frame .38s and .32-20s.

The reason I have only seen 2 HDs and one OD in the wild in 23 years is they simply didn't sell to the cash-strapped hill folk.

Last edited by Plain Old Dave; 11-23-2014 at 03:43 PM.
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  #83  
Old 11-19-2014, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
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Seems to me to be a formula for quick bore leading, but I guess it worked.
Not if the bullet is properly sized to the chamber throats, and especially not if it's gas checked.
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Old 11-20-2014, 02:30 PM
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POD,
So many changes in criteria!

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Old 11-20-2014, 02:51 PM
05CarbonDRZ 05CarbonDRZ is offline
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Just wanted to thank Calmex for taking the time to test and share all of his 38/44 Loads,It is MUCH appreciated
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 05CarbonDRZ View Post
Just wanted to thank Calmex for taking the time to test and share all of his 38/44 Loads,It is MUCH appreciated
I appreciate your comment. We should also thank Lee Jarrett for providing a Forum where this kind of stuff can be openly discussed and read by interested third parties without having to worry about the Mexican Gun Gestapo overseers being able to intervene as they would in a Forum down here.

When we have more info on the 200 grain bullets, I'll be sure to post it. The interesting thing about the 200 grain SWC a made by Accurate Molds (it's number 36-200B) is the size of the front end. The Saeco 207 grain Spaceship -- actual weight -- is a nice bullet but sometimes tumbles out of any revolver we have here. Sometimes. It also is so long when seated that you need the full 1.595 length of an N-frame cylinder to contain it, and you are crimping into the bullet bore-riding section well above the crimp groove using .38 Special cases. Forget about a .357 case, you couldn't use one.

I too, like many of you, worry about stressing older N-frame revolvers that are now collectible as we try to reach power levels that might be useful for actual defense against attack but is overkill for gun-games.

The 200 grain SWC is just HUGE in front, around about bore diameter. I suspect a 200 grain .38 bullet with that type of front end at 875 fps would possibly be quite as effective as a larger diameter bullet of the same weight but with a roundnosed shape. I mean specifically the 246 grain roundnosed .44 Special round. Also, recoil and pressure to obtain this velocity is a lot lighter than trying to drive a 160 grain SWC up to 1,200 fps. (I have shot the 200 grain SWC at slightly over 1,100 fps out of my Model 28/23 and it's very effective on bowling pins! But we're looking to duplicate .44 Special performance and recoil from the smaller bore size here.)

When we've worked more with this I will let the results be known as it's a way of getting the old Heavy Duty up to .44 Special power -- if not bore diameter -- out of the smaller diameter package without all the bark and pressure for those interested in such things.

Photo:
Using my wife's Model 60, the Saeco 207 grain spaceship at 1.595 OAL sticks out of the cylinder (and would bind it from turning) whereas the Accurate Molds 200 grain SWC does not. LOOK at the size of the front end on that SWC!!! That's got to count for something you'd think. I think -- although do no know -- that this 200 gr. SWC loading would probably be about as effective as a .44 Special factory load. I would prefer it myself to any regular non-hollowpoint .38 Special loading we have around here, although I think the Elmer Keith Heavy Duty load is still the "King of the Hill" for defense. This is more a load we're looking into for gun-games that would not be totally useless if you had to employ it in an emergency.

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  #87  
Old 11-20-2014, 07:30 PM
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"We should also thank Lee Jarrett for providing a Forum where this kind of stuff can be openly discussed and read by interested third parties without having to worry about the Mexican Gun Gestapo overseers being able to intervene as they would in a Forum down here. "

I'm not so sure that at least tuning into the various gun forums isn't happening in the USA - They just haven't openly intervened yet. I think it's fairly certain that at least the NSA is monitoring almost everything on the internet, and maybe some of the other three- and four-letter organizations also.
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