The .38 HE Model of 1902 that I posted in a separate thread was pretty gummed up inside. I knew from the feel of the action that it needed a major cleaning, so after I picked it up today I tore it apart.


When I got the sideplate off, I saw lots of congealed oil with embedded fibers and dust, but not a lot of carbon residue. That is consistent with the other evidence that this gun was not fired very much.






In this photo, note the old style leaf spring that powers the trigger return. The rebound slide mechanism didn't come in until the Model of 1905.




When I got the parts out and cleaned up the frame, I was amazed to see how much smoother an interior the company produced a century ago. In the 1930s and 1940s (and afterward), frame interiors were left rougher where there was no chance of coming in conflict with a moving part.




And after I got all the assemblies cleaned and reinstalled, the whole gun looked a lot better.




Sideplates were sure different back then. Holes for some of the pins and studs are in different positions, and there is no slot for a hammer block.




With a few interruptions, the clean-up was about a three hour job. There was a lot of toothbrush and toothpick work involved.

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David Wilson

Great look inside an oldtimer.

Don't you love the chafing bushings?
How about the screw retaining the plunger in the bolt?

Get yourself a coffee or quart jar, and a quart/gallon of acetone. Fashion a "basket" from a small can with a wire handle, so you can soak the guts while you scrub the frame. The acetone rots your liver quicker than cheap booze, so only breathe it on Saturday nights. Keep it off your skin. Volatile it is, so don't use it around pilot lights and kerosene lamps.

BTW- the rebound slide appears with the 1905-1st Change.

I forgot-
Note there is NO double action "takeover" on the trigger, so the action is not truly "long". It became longer with later changes.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Chafing bushings -- I knew I was looking at something different, but I didn't know what to call them.

Thanks for the rebound slide note. Still trying to learn here.

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David Wilson

Hello David
I think Those chafing bushings are screwed in Place from the inside. Later ones due to a cost cutting measure , were Pressed in Place. I believe in the assembly of it, they screwed them in place then Polished the external frame of the revolver before bluing it to make them fit flush and not be noticed. S&W sure does not make them like that any more, shear pride in their work & Craftsmanship back then. thank's for the picture's....

Looks pretty familiar. This is M&P 1st Mod #863X from Jan 1901. Was in about the same condition, lots of nasty lube, but not much shooting residue. I was sort of thrown when I first opened it up, as wasn't what I was used to see. I had some good holp from Forum members in the disassembly differences.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I knew I would see a different trigger return mechanism, so I was somewhat prepared for that. What threw me for a while was the cylinder stop -- no frame screw! Eventually I dared just to pull it off its pin and was glad I did, because there was some rough metal on the back of it that kept the stop from moving freely under its spring pressure. It was kind of annoying getting the trigger and its return assembly onto their two studs at the same time I was compressing the trigger spring -- where's that third hand when you need it? -- but it all worked out.

The most nervous I have ever felt looking at an open gun was about two months ago when for the first time I took the sideplate off a wartime Colt revolver. I felt like I had just stepped off an airplane in the middle of the night in some country where I didn't speak the language. But I took pictures as I disassembled it, got it cleaned up (the 1902 was just lightly soiled in comparison), and all back together without messing up the hammer-block linkage. Took a couple of tries, though.

These are the sorts of experiences that teach one patience.

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David Wilson

David

The third hand is a piece of dowel, that runs from the cutout for the
rear of the cylinder release mechanism, to the second spring. When
disassembling, once the hammer and cylinder-release bolt are out,
cut a piece of wood dowel to a length such that, when pulling the
trigger all the way back ( thus depressing that second spring), the
dowel sets tightly on the second spring, just to the rear of that
pivoting mechanism. When you release the trigger, it will hold the
spring down, so that you can use both hands to remove the trigger
and pivoting mechanism simultaneously.

Then, with a pair of tape-wrapper pliers, you can pull the spring down
just a bit, and remove the dowel. For reassembly, just use the pliers
to pull the spring down, and insert the dowel to keep the spring down.
Then, both hands are available to gently slide into place the trigger
and the rebounding levers, in tact.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Why didn't I think of that? Thanks for the tip.

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David Wilson

Mike was the "Generous Forum Assistance" that guided me through it the first time. The wood dowel is the "third hand". Regarding the cylinder stop, I was advised these are called "Pre 5 Screw 4 Screw".

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Awesome photos and discussion. I better bookmark this thread so if I ever get one of this vintage, I'll know what to do disassembly/reassembly-wise. -Donald

Kurt,
I believe you are confusing the chafing bushings with the studs.
Chafing bushings are the bright "dots" on the sides of the hammer(two) and trigger(one). Their only function is to keep the trigger and hammer from rubbing the frame and rubbing the case colors off.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Very informative thread and clear photos. Thanks to all who have contributed!

Jerry

Like yours, my 1902 had about a century of gunk in it. This one belonged to my paternal grandfather, so in spite of the fact that it's seen hard use, I'll never let go of it.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

What a great thread. Thank you guys for all the very helpful information and illustrations.
Special thanks to David Wilson for pointing me to this older thread.
Jack

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

A wonderful thread, as this is the only pictures i have seen of the innereds of the psitol i have, exactly, thank you thank you.

This thread and those like it make me really appreciate being a part of this forum and organization, thanks for the informative replies and photos.

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Sam
S&WHF 333 S&WCA 2198

Good education for me on the insides of an old one. Thanks! If they were still made with that much care I would all be collecting something else...couldn't afford that much handwork.

I for one would love to see a picture thread showing this procedure!
Jim

This is a really old thread, but here's a picture of what Mike is talking about.

The second picture shows the use of a clamp (being sure to protect the finish) compressing the spring.

The next alternative is to compress the spring at the pin site and driving the pin out, thus removing the spring.







Whatever works best for you. Three hands would still be better.

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Why, I aughta.....

My m1917 .45 ACP S & W Revolver ( which looks like it did go through a War ) is also very smooth inside the Milled areas of the Frame.

Here's a fast pic from when I had just got it and was cleaning the internals.



Maybe not quite as smooth as the '02s or their era, but considering this was harried War Production, it is pretty impressive how smooth it is.

The few 1960s era S & Ws I have worked on, were quite rough in there, very rough Milling Marks or Machining Marks, even to having metal shavings still attached in some places.

"Maybe not quite as smooth as the '02s or their era, but considering this was harried War Production, it is pretty impressive how smooth it is.

The few 1960s era S & Ws I have worked on, were quite rough in there, very rough Milling Marks or Machining Marks, even to having metal shavings still attached in some places."

S&W was taken over by the US Gov't during WW I because the factory refused to get into a hurry. Look at a rough 1917 Colt and the 1917 Smith to see the contrast.

If you ever opened up a 1980s M686, you would be amazed. I did action jobs on many cop guns in that era and I swear the last action the factory workers did before closing the sideplate was to ADD a tablespoon full of metal filings!!!

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

"The acetone rots your liver quicker than cheap booze, so only breathe it on Saturday nights. "

When I was a machinist's apprentice, my boss would have me clean machines with acetone. No gloves, no mask. Maybe that's what's wrong with me......thank goodness that, in some ways, we are more enlightened today.

Yea that is it, I just can't see how the part in the picture I have attached fits in the other parts. I am confused on which way that piece the arrow is pointing at sits in there. It can go in 4 ways butm it is only going to work properly one way.

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The long piece goes as you have it in the photo---and (obviously) in the space in the short piece. Chicoine's Antique Firearms Assembly/Disassembly (book) removes ALL the mysteries of these---and all the rest.

One caveat: Mike Priwer's methodology of controlling the trigger return spring for disassembly/assemblly (noted/illustrated in this thread) is vastly superior to Chicoine's-------VASTLY!!

Ralph Tremaine

AND-----those two pieces (as an assembly) go in (and come out) as yet another assembly--this time with the trigger----two hands while learning----and even afterwards. (Sounds more complicated than it is.)

I swear the last action the factory workers did before closing the sideplate was to ADD a tablespoon full of metal filings!!!

__________________I've seen this a bunch of times.

I have received a lot of satisfaction, in cleaning the crud out of otherwise nearly perfect revolvers.

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NRA Instructor

The same as the 1899 action. And, yes, Mike Priwer's method on the disassembly is much better.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Thanks to all for resurrecting this thread. I, for one love to see examples of the workmanship that existed over a hundred years ago. I have seen it in several of my own revolvers, bu I think that I enjoy these threads almost as much as working on my own guns! A lot cheaper, too!

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Yea I spent about ther same cleaning it up. Where the spring sits against the Trigger rebound piece, there is another piece inside of it. Tht is the part I am trying to figure out which way it sits in there. Since you had it completely apart maybe you can help. You can't see it in these pics because it is inside another piecs.
DOes the flat side go toward the rear of the Pistol and spring or does the rounded end go in that direction?

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Yea I spent about ther same cleaning it up. Where the spring sits against the Trigger rebound piece, there is another piece inside of it. Tht is the part I am trying to figure out which way it sits in there. Since you had it completely apart maybe you can help. You can't see it in these pics because it is inside another piecs.
DOes the flat side go toward the rear of the Pistol and spring or does the rounded end go in that direction?

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the little roller end goes into the back of the trigger and then you will see that you can only put it in one way and have it fit. I just did my 1902 a few days ago.

Stu

One other questio, and I'm sure it will take a Micrometer top measur it but, low laong is the end of the hand that turns the Cylinder? Whe a Cylinder starts slipping when the trigger is pulled, that is the first piece I thinkl about and thisone looks worn down.

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Your photo's are far too blurry to be able to see detail.

Stu

This thread is over six years old, and I no longer have a visual memory of exactly how these pieces go together. But given what you cannot see in the assembled images, the long arm must go toward the trigger and the shorter blocky arm must be positioned toward the rear of the gun. With that established, the long arm must be positioned below the pivot hole or it would collide with other parts of the gun.

Remember that dowel trick from higher in this thread, because you are going to be holding the trigger in one hand and the rocker assembly in your other when you push them down onto their respective studs at the same time.

EDITED TO ADD: Stu came in with the right answer while I was hunting for a photo or X-ray image that would show the proper relationship between these parts. At least you have different guys telling you the same thing, so that should inspire confidence.

EDITED AGAIN: Can't help you with the hand. That's a part that is usually fitted to a specific gun by trial and adjustment rather than measurement. Rarely you may find a drop-in hand that magically works, but most of the time I have found myself messing around to make a new hand work properly.

I can't remember the exact spring tensioning system used in these older hand ejectors, but I hope you paid attention when you took the hand off the trigger. Getting a spring, trigger and hand back together the right way is one of those experiences that lead to excessive beer consumption once you stumble onto the solution.

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David Wilson

I use a pair of needle nose vice-grip pliers with rubber hose over the tips of the pliers to compress the spring. Gives complete control on compressing the spring and absolutely holds it in place.

Stu

When reassembling does the piece that goes inside the trigger Lever, I can't think of the name of it right now. It has a small ball like end on it. Does it fit over or under the small pin on the hand to operate it?

It goes under the hand pin. There is a recess for the little roller in the back of the trigger

Stu

I know. And I know all these parts go together one certain way to cause the hand to move forward and up and pull the Cylinder lock down at the same time, I just haven't getten it all figured out yet. There is a spring and notch in the trigger that works these mechanisms, I just have to keep trying.

I think I see what I missed. I have to push the Cylinder lock down when I put the trigger i place. I just need 2 more hands

Ok, the Lug on the Cylinder lock lever is missing on the pistol I have. The lug that the trigger pulls down on to release the Cylinder. Would you have any idea where to get one or, what I coulsd make one from?

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I might be able to help you on that. PM sent to you.

Stu

Thank you Stu, I red you mesage and I am interested

Anyone, still looking for the lug on the Cylinder Lock for a 1903 to 1907 S&W .32 20

This is the part I need, or the complete Cylinder lock if necessary. Probably have to enlarge the photo.
If you need a better pic let me know and I will post one. Thank all of you ahead of time.

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Thanks stu1ritter THe assembly had everything in it. So I am good. If I had seen your PM that you had the parts I would have gotten them from you but, I got a email from Numrich's before I saw your message. Thnaks tho. If I can help you with anything at all let me know.

Ok, I have another S&W from the same Customer. this one is a .38 long barrel 4 screws in the side plate, with "T04978" on the Butt. Any idea what Model it is? Sorry, I had to clean the rust off to see the number on the butt well enough to read it right, it is "216701" , .38 Cal 6" barrel

You should really start a new thread to have your questions answered.

Stu

Ok, what would you call it? This one is one made before the hammer block as well

I recently bought a 1902 38 special. I took it apart to clean it and was able to get it back together again with the help of this thread. This is by far the most difficult revolver I have ever worked on.

The worst part... After finally getting it assembled (took several days) I discovered that I had forgotten to have the hand attached to the hammer and had to take it apart and do it again. The second time took only a few minutes.

I compressed the trigger spring using a small vise grip.