I have a chance to buy a .38/44 HD, nickle plated, diamond magna stocked revolver from Austin, Tx PD. The gun is in at least 95% condition and probably better, and the owner is asking $2400.00. Too much?
Serial # S 255733, Rack # 242
Grips are not numbered to the gun, but are new and have no number on the back. They are not fitted to the grip frame and are proud on the bottom of the grip. I wish they fit better, and really had hoped they would number to the gun, but they are what they are.

Bill,

That seems a little steep to me for an APD gun. The last one that I bought was in 2005 for about 1/3 of that and it was top dollar at the time, so I am basing my answer on that. I'd be surprised if they have appreciated that much since then. On the other hand, if the gun you are looking at is marked as a Mod. 20-2 (maybe only 50 guns or less?), it very well might bring that much.

There were about 250+ Heavy Duties shipped to the Austin Department in at least 7 shipments from 1952 through 1964. With the exception of only a very, very few, they were all factory refinished when they were deaccessioned from the Department so they are usually found in good shape.

They are historic police guns (one of them was used in taking out the University of Texas Tower sniper in 1966 but the actual gun used is unknown...so we all think our gun is the one).

Bob

Thanks for the reply Bob.

It is indeed a 20-2. I failed to post that in my original post. The seller mentioned the Tower sniper and also mentioned the name of the officer who shot and killed him, but according to the PD, they have no record of which gun he used or the serial number of that gun. I know, "buy the gun, not the story".

Well, I hope that price is too high, because I don't have my APD HD yet and as an Austin native would like to add one to the heap. If that's the going rate, I will have to take a deep breath to make the commitment to buy.

Aha, before I push the "submit" button I see that this is confirmed as a 20-2. Those are a little scarce in the grand scheme of things, and may be worth some extra money. But I would still hope that such a gun would cost no more than $1800-2000 in the best preserved refinished condition, so I think the asking price is still high.

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David Wilson

Quite possibly, but I'm almost ready to pull the pin so to speak and buy it.

Bill,

The fact that it is a 20-2 puts it in a new light...all of my comments about the price can be forgotten. Those are scarce guns. If I had the chance for one I would probably be in serious negotiations with the seller.

The APD officer that you are speaking of is Ramiro "Ray" Martinez. Ray was later a Texas Ranger and has a book entitled: They Call Me Ranger Ray. In the book he details his role in the UT Sniper case. In all fairness, I will say that Ray's involvement is disputed by some. It is a classic example of different people being involved in highly stressful events and each giving dramatically different accounts.

You are correct about buying the gun instead of the story because my gun (APD 145) is the actual gun used in that apprehension...my story and I'm sticking with it!).

Bob

Thank you again Bob. I am going to contact the seller early next week and see if I can negotiate a lower price, but if not, I will more than likely buy it after taking a real good look at it. I saw it at a small gun show today sitting in a display case on the seller's table and we struck up a conversation. My buddy had the money and said he would loan it to me so I could buy the gun, but I wanted to check on the Forum before making a commitment.
Am I correct in that the gun should be marked APD with a number?

Can't wait to see the pictures! Me saying that does put you over the edge and make you want to buy it more, doesn't it?

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Miss My Buddy crsides!!

A model marked 20-2 is extremely rare. A very desirable piece. Are you a serious collector? How badly do you want it? I would not pay that much but then I am not a serious collector. Put $2400 in cash on the table next to the gun. You can pick up one or the other and leave. Make your choice.

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No life story has happy end.

Yeah, thanks. Like I really needed a push.

Guess our daughter's driveway will have to be put off for a few more months before being re-done.

Bill,

The APD guns are marked on the backstrap with either "Austin Police Department" or "Austin P. D.". Both styles were followed by a rack number. The rack number on the gun that you are looking at is probably in the 200-250 range. The serial number will probably be in the S255xxx range.

Bob

Well, it looks like it may be a good week for me coming up.
I have made arrangements to buy the gun and will pick it up this coming Thursday. Owner says it has not been fired since going back to S&W for a re-nickle, way back when. It is marked Austin PD on the backstrap and he believes the number is 242, but he was not sure as he did not have the gun in front of him when we spoke on the phone today.
I will also be getting a newly purchased .38/44 Outdoorsman this week too. Can't wait to get both of them in my hands.

Bill
I cant wait to see the pics...you have a good accumulation going.

Bill,
Congrats on the 20-2! I don't have 242 in my database, so when you can send me the serial number so I can put the rack number with it (I have all 50 serial numbers but not their rack numbers). As Bob said, most of them have been refinished. Bob is wrong in that I have the gun that Ranger Ray used on the Tower Sniper! Apparently the property cards for those guns have been lost or destroyed so no one knows what gun he carried that day. As for price, that is your call and what you think it is worth. I too can't wait for the pictures!
Bill

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38-44heavyduty.com

I pick the gun up Thursday morning and am on pins & needles waiting to go get it. He was going to take it to the OGCA show this coming week-end, so I'm really glad I decided to buy it. I should have pictures up Thursday evening, if I can keep the drool off of it.

Bill P., the beauty of having no records of the history of the APD guns is that you can claim that you have Ranger Ray's gun, I can claim to have Ray's gun and certainly, Graf can make that same claim with his new gun. No one can really challenge us and the only thing we need to remember is that if we are ever all together bragging, we have to leave that part of our tall tales out.

Bob

No problem there as I've been told that I got that old man's disease, CRS.

Bob,
That 'claiming' deal is a great way to look at the APD 38/44's and their tenuous thread to Ranger Ray.
I used to think my # 19 might have been in the running, but I'm betting it's actually too old!
LOL!
Don

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OGCA Life
NRA Life

Naw, Don. You can still play the "claim game". You know those old things don't wear out. Even though yours was in the first shipment back in 1952 it might still have been in service in '66. The beauty of the absence of any records is that anyone with an APD gun may legitimately think that they have a piece of history without fear of contradiction. After all, the odds of roughly 1 in 250 aren't too bad at all for this sort of thing.

Bob

None of you have Ray's gun.

Ray's gun will be the next APD 38 HD that I have for sale.
(I don't have one currently, so no calls or emails, please)

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

BTT with photos.

Looks good to me. I give this gun a whole bunch of thumbs up.

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David Wilson

Bill,
Very, very nice! Thanks for the great post - and pictures,

Jerry

Bill,
Nice one! Another one from the 50 surfaces! thanks for posting.
Bill

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38-44heavyduty.com

Bob,
Sorry but the APD #10 i just picked up was "confirmed",
as the Texas U. gun.
It was presented to me by the brother of the guy who lives
across the street from the Ramirez family back at the time
of the shooting.







Of course mine is missing the original grips....shipped in
1952. But that's just because Charles Whitman was beaten
over the head and subdued with this actual gun and the grips
broke at that time.

Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

Chuck,

Well, with an irrefutable provenance like your gun #10 has and my a priori knowledge of the history of my gun #145, it becomes apparent that old Ranger Ray was a "two-gun man".

Bob

Bob,
When i saw this one #10 was missing the original grips it became clear to me then.
How else can one explain the grips not being on the gun?
It "had" to be used as a club (after running out of reloads) to
subdue Whitman.
I can now picture Ranger Ray charging the tower, shooting
your #145 with his right hand and swinging my #10 with
his left hand.

IIRC .... when i talked to the cousin of the neighbor of the
guy who knew the owner of the gun shop, he told me Ranger
Ray was known to wear a two gun rig with two APD guns.

Now it all makes perfect sense.


Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

Haha

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

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38-44heavyduty.com

Chuck,

I 'spect that you're right about Ray's charge on Whitman. 'Course he was an Austin PD officer then. As soon as he joined the Rangers he learned in "Rangerin' 101" that the reason that S&W added that lug under the barrel was for attitude adjustin'. All Texas lawmen know that the butt is for nailin' up wanted posters!

Bob

You guys might enjoy this: A Tragic, True Story About an Austin PD Model 27

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208